Doesn't Catholicm fit the Protestant view of salvation?

[edwinG]

enanneman:

Thank you for this insight. My question to you is that if this truly was the case, would not the “there is no sin that cannot be forgiven except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” come into play here?

In other words, if we Catholics accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior and we simply were misled into worshiping Mary and the saints (because the priests and nuns told us to), wouldn’t we still be saved because these sins would be forgiven because of our faith?

Hi enanneman,
There is another sin that is not forgiven but I can not find the reference and it is quite late. It is to do with knowing so very much and then after all giving Jesus up. You can not having had so much from Jesus find it in your heart to repent. But that is another issue.

Here is my non- catholic belief. At the end of time, all people will believe in Jesus, every knee will bow every tongue will confess. all sins will be cast away and your works will decide. Now christians willl be expected to have fruit because they have had the Holy Spirit to make their lifes easier because He leads us and also we should have a lot more work done according to His will. Only work done according to His will is counted. Now a native from the deepest jungle has his conscience to obey as well and the Spirit is with him. Now if he lives according to the truth in his heart Jesus will lift him up. His works don’t have to be as our works as much is expected from us. Most of us wont make the narrow path and will be kicked out of heaven at our death,on earth, to live in hell until He returns when all will be resurrected, judged and sorted into paradise ( kingdom of God in the form of the Holy Jerusalem on earth) or the Lake of fire. The second death.
God has fooled satan here because as satan has started up all of these false religions. like buddhism, muslims, etc but all of these people have basic good tenents. Then in the end they will believe in Christ, and remember the parable of the workers and the different hours then came in and the last were paid the same as the ones who worked all day. God in His merch and wisdom is so so beautiful. I beg you to benefit from the Holy Spirit. He will turn your life into joy and make it worth while. Only Christians have Him in this manner.It is so sad to see Christians ignoring Him, by treating Him passively
Remember your sins are cast away, the bible does not say your works are cast away or only works from a certain historical point are counted.
Not to worry.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[michaelp]

Kirk, I appreciate your honesty and candor.

Here is what you have to struggle with. How did Paul and the Jews view the Law. Was it an isolated groups of works that had no relation to actual goodness and love. This can’t be. Christ said that all the law and the prophets is summed up in one commandment: to love God and love others.

**Matthew 22:37-40 **37 Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Again, to interpret the law as some set of cerimonial law alone is to interpret according to a theology rather than create a theology from the text. The Jews would have never made a separation in the law the way you have just suggested. The law contained everything that was good. All righteousness.

Concerning the passages in Matt. I think that it is true that we will be judged on the basis of our works. How do I harmonize? Again, it is faith alone that saves, but the faith that saves will not be alone. The good tree will produce good fruit. If God has opened your heart to the light of the Gospel through faith, then you are compelled to follow Him as St. Augustine would say.

Thanks for your time and your graciousness.

 

[enanneman]

edwinG:

Hi enanneman,
There is another sin that is not forgiven but I can not find the reference and it is quite late. It is to do with knowing so very much and then after all giving Jesus up. You can not having had so much from Jesus find it in your heart to repent. But that is another issue.

Here is my non- catholic belief. At the end of time, all people will believe in Jesus, every knee will bow every tongue will confess. all sins will be cast away and your works will decide. Now christians willl be expected to have fruit because they have had the Holy Spirit to make their lifes easier because He leads us and also we should have a lot more work done according to His will. Only work done according to His will is counted. Now a native from the deepest jungle has his conscience to obey as well and the Spirit is with him. Now if he lives according to the truth in his heart Jesus will lift him up. His works don’t have to be as our works as much is expected from us. Most of us wont make the narrow path and will be kicked out of heaven at our death,on earth, to live in hell until He returns when all will be resurrected, judged and sorted into paradise ( kingdom of God in the form of the Holy Jerusalem on earth) or the Lake of fire. The second death.
God has fooled satan here because as satan has started up all of these false religions. like buddhism, muslims, etc but all of these people have basic good tenents. Then in the end they will believe in Christ, and remember the parable of the workers and the different hours then came in and the last were paid the same as the ones who worked all day. God in His merch and wisdom is so so beautiful. I beg you to benefit from the Holy Spirit. He will turn your life into joy and make it worth while. Only Christians have Him in this manner.It is so sad to see Christians ignoring Him, by treating Him passively
Remember your sins are cast away, the bible does not say your works are cast away or only works from a certain historical point are counted.
Not to worry.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

Peace be with you, Edwin.

While I pray that this be so–that all of humanity will be saved, we have to proceed with the directions Christ has left us through his Church. And, although people will and do undoubtedly find Christ outside his Church, the Lord Jesus gave us the Church to find him, and so we should be obedient to his wishes. Edwin, I appreciate your wishing me to listen to the Holy Spirit and be guided by it. And, I want you to know that I have been doing this–making a conscience effort to pray that the Spirit fill me with his presence and guide me. But, what I’d like you to do is consider is the fact that Jesus will judge us at the end of our days. To not live in accordance with that fact (and, worse, to lead others to not live knowing this) is dangerous.

You and I truly only want to do the will of God, but it’s the understanding His will that provides the stumbling blocks. But, fortunately, Jesus gave us the Holy Mother Church to help us understand His will and live our lives accordingly.

As always, God be with you, Edwin!

Eric

 

[enanneman]

Concerning the passages in Matt. I think that it is true that we will be judged on the basis of our works. How do I harmonize? Again, it is faith alone that saves, but the faith that saves will not be alone. The good tree will produce good fruit. If God has opened your heart to the light of the Gospel through faith, then you are compelled to follow Him as St. Augustine would say.

Thanks for your time and your graciousness.

Thank you, Michael, for sharing with us your insights. It’s always nice to see how others view the Gospel.

From what I’ve read from your posts, the Protestant views faith alone as the key to salvation, and that works naturally come out of faith but that these works are secondary and not really neccesary since Christ forgives all sins.

The Catholic view is that salvation is a life-long process. Baptism opens the door to salvation, but one must build a relationship with God throughout one’s lifetime. Sin separates the sinner from God, and the sacraments bring the sinner back to God and repair the relationship. And, far from naturally occuring from faith, works are sometimes very difficult. One sometimes really has to struggle to do what is right and just. But, these very struggles are what bring us closer to God. It is our faith working through love that saves us. Not faith alone.

Peace and God bless you, Michael.

Eric

 

[kidderdoc]

michaelp:

Kidder,

Whether it is denominations or individuals, it makes little difference. Unity is the principle and unity is violated. Which is more important, to have a confession of unity or an actual unity? Of course it is that we are actually unified.

And, I disagree, If you objectively study church history, you are not going to find the unity that RCs like to claim. But we can agree to disagee. But I would challenge any of you to study the issue. And don’t just study RCs who are bent on their presupposistion. Read more widely. Read Hans Kung on the issue. Read some Protestants. Read some liberals. Then make your decision. But don’t believe something without justification.

Be strong in the Lord. Love Him with all you Mind.

Michael

Michael, I must object to your assumption that we Catholics are just unread and ignorant! I feel I have read many Protesters, liberals and, gulp, even Kung. Not anymore, as I have gotten selective in my old age about what I will expose my mind to… Have you read the Early Church Fathers? If you have, then you would know just how Catholic they are! You can look in the New Testament and find all the churches arguing…does that make them not in union? Your “argument” is weak.

As for the original question in this thread, the writer has hit upon one of the classic conundrums of protestantism…faith alone is unbiblical and does not make sense when applied. The “works of the Law” (i.e. circumcision) that Paul is referring to is differently from the Works of Love that James refers to (charity). When you take something out of context, you have a pretext.

And it is not “faith alone” that saves us…it is “grace alone” that saves us…big difference!

Kidder

 

[michaelp]

I am sorry if you took it that I meant that all RCs are unlearned. I don’t think this at all. I respect man RCs and their contributions to theology.

If you will read my post above about the Law not being simply cerimonial to the Jew and Christ, but ultimately loving God and loving our neighbor, your question might be better informed. Struggle with it and tell me what you think. It is just a few posts up.

Do I read the early church father? You bet! I love them. They are all my friends. Here is the problem guys. You all take the beliefs from them that you like and quote them, and we take the beliefs that we like and quote them. We all quote Augustine. We do for his stance on predestination and grace, you do for his stance on the Church. The same thing can be said about all the church fathers. Were they catholic? yes. Were they Roman Catholic? It depends on who you read and what you want to quote. Were they Protestant? It depends on who you read and what you want to quote.

Proof texting from the Church fathers would never get us anywhere. That is why I would say we must go to the Scriptures. But this is hard, because we both go there wanting to accomplish our agenda. What do we do about this? I don’t know. It has been going on for 2000 years.

I hope that we can find the ability to discuss this without having to push our traditions.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

michaelp:

Kirk, I appreciate your honesty and candor.

Here is what you have to struggle with. How did Paul and the Jews view the Law. Was it an isolated groups of works that had no relation to actual goodness and love. This can’t be. Christ said that all the law and the prophets is summed up in one commandment: to love God and love others.

**Matthew 22:37-40 **37 Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Again, to interpret the law as some set of cerimonial law alone is to interpret according to a theology rather than create a theology from the text. The Jews would have never made a separation in the law the way you have just suggested. The law contained everything that was good. All righteousness.

Concerning the passages in Matt. I think that it is true that we will be judged on the basis of our works. How do I harmonize? Again, it is faith alone that saves, but the faith that saves will not be alone. The good tree will produce good fruit. If God has opened your heart to the light of the Gospel through faith, then you are compelled to follow Him as St. Augustine would say.

Thanks for your time and your graciousness.

I’m afraid I don’t have time to answer this right now (I’m on my lunch break), but will respond latter.

 

[RBushlow]

michaelp:

. . . .The same thing can be said about all the church fathers. Were they catholic? yes. Were they Roman Catholic?

Ah, there’s the thing my friend. Roman Catholic is a misnomer. I would like to request that all here stop using the term Roman Catholic or RCC or RCC. Many of us Catholics here are not Latin Rite Catholics. There are Byzantine, Maronite, Melkite, etc. Ee are Catholics in full communion with the See of Peter.

Christ be with you.

 

[michaelp]

Fair enough. Thanks for informing me. But I am not going to concede that Protestants are not Catholic so I don’t have any other option. I use this to refer to those who follow the traditions of Roman Catholicism. Maybe you could call us the Evangelical Catholic Church? I like that name. Martin Luther, eat your heart out!!

 

[Exporter]

Michaelp,

Were you serious?? You wrote," But I am not going to concede that Protestants are not Catholic so I don’t have any other option. I use this to refer to those who follow the traditions of Roman Catholicism."

You say “those who follow the traditions of Roman Catholocism”. There are three legs (so to speak) that the Holy Mother Church stand upon; Tradition, the Bible and the Magisterium. Tradition is just one of the foundations of the Holy Mother Church. Go to the Catholic Encyclopedia for help.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm

You seem to be saying that Protestants ARE Catholic. This is an impossibility! The Protestants are Protesting Against the Catholic Church! If they were Not Protesting then they would Not be Protestants - nes pa?

 

[michaelp]

Yes, I was serious. Theologically speaking all those who belong to Christ are part of the Catholic Church since catholic simply means universal. This was first formely articulated in the Apostle’s Creed to which Protestants, for the most part, ahere.

I don’t want to get anyone mixed up, but it is important for people to understand the word to be a theological statement about the nature of the Body of Christ (the Church), rather than a formal title. It would be like us giving up the name Christian, just because someone else has the name “Christian” in a formal title.

Hope you understand where I am coming from.

Have a great day,

Michael

 

[SusanG]

Hello everyone and Peace to all.

Just a couple of random thoughts…

There was a statement regarding dying with a serious or grave sin…many Protestant denominations believe that all sin is equal, none being worse than any other.

There are many Protestants that will never tell you that you are not saved, the catch phrase (all my fellow converts can say it with me…) “Well, I can’t see what’s in your heart. I would never SAY that you weren’t saved…” The ‘but’ is silent, but loud nonetheless.

Some Protestants really believe that we as Catholics are truly brethren with them.

Can we fit into the Protestant model of salvation? Sure. Just don’t ask a Protestant.

 

[Exporter]

Please, slow down a minute. Several posts seem to be of the opinion that the universality of the Body of Christ has made Protestantism have an equal footing with Holy Mother Church, i.e., The Catholic Church.

To be specific, I have a grandson who just had his 8th birthday and has spent almost 4 years in a Catholic School. If what has been said , is true, then maybe I should tell him," Hey Matthew, all this stuff you are learning about our church isn’t too important, you can be a Protestant when you grow up, then you can be “saved” and not worry later on, because the two churches are equal".

I do not think even one Catholic will tell me that I should tell Matt that. Why did I say all of this? Because something is wrong with saying the Protestant view of salvation is the same as the Catholic view.:yup:

 

[JKirkLVNV]

RBushlow:

Ah, there’s the thing my friend. Roman Catholic is a misnomer. I would like to request that all here stop using the term Roman Catholic or RCC or RCC. Many of us Catholics here are not Latin Rite Catholics. There are Byzantine, Maronite, Melkite, etc. Ee are Catholics in full communion with the See of Peter.

Christ be with you.

You’re quite right! Sorry!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

michaelp:

Kirk, I appreciate your honesty and candor.

Here is what you have to struggle with. How did Paul and the Jews view the Law. Was it an isolated groups of works that had no relation to actual goodness and love. This can’t be. Christ said that all the law and the prophets is summed up in one commandment: to love God and love others.

**Matthew 22:37-40 **37 Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Again, to interpret the law as some set of cerimonial law alone is to interpret according to a theology rather than create a theology from the text. The Jews would have never made a separation in the law the way you have just suggested. The law contained everything that was good. All righteousness.

Concerning the passages in Matt. I think that it is true that we will be judged on the basis of our works. How do I harmonize? Again, it is faith alone that saves, but the faith that saves will not be alone. The good tree will produce good fruit. If God has opened your heart to the light of the Gospel through faith, then you are compelled to follow Him as St. Augustine would say.

Thanks for your time and your graciousness.

Michael: Forgive me, but I’m not able to address this as well as an article on this very site (and as a school teacher, I rebel at the notion of recreating the wheel). I would advise you to read the article by Kenneth J. Howell entitled “Aren’t We Saved By Faith Alone?” featured in This Rock. I’m not sure which issue it is, but you can find it by entering Faith Vs. Works into the search engine for Catholic Answers. It articulates very well what I’m trying to say. For the record, I do not believe that I can offer God anything in my own strength/righteousness, but that I am only saved by Jesus’ Passion, Death, and Resurection.

 

[edwinG]

enanneman:

Peace be with you, Edwin.

While I pray that this be so–that all of humanity will be saved, we have to proceed with the directions Christ has left us through his Church. And, although people will and do undoubtedly find Christ outside his Church, the Lord Jesus gave us the Church to find him, and so we should be obedient to his wishes. Edwin, I appreciate your wishing me to listen to the Holy Spirit and be guided by it. And, I want you to know that I have been doing this–making a conscience effort to pray that the Spirit fill me with his presence and guide me. But, what I’d like you to do is consider is the fact that Jesus will judge us at the end of our days. To not live in accordance with that fact (and, worse, to lead others to not live knowing this) is dangerous.

but it’s the You and I truly only want to do the will of God, understanding His will that provides the stumbling blocks. But, fortunately, Jesus gave us the Holy Mother Church to help us understand His will and live our lives accordingly.

As always, God be with you, Edwin!

Eric

Hi Eric,
I hope you are well and I am so pleased you are consciously trying to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit.How your faith will grow and joy and peace will fill your heart.
I have bold typed some passages. “But it’s the” is a mistake I cant clear.
His Churdh, The Church. What you mean, I suppose is Christ’s church. Look into your heart and see why you dont type Roman Catholic Church. To me all who obey the Holy Spirit will be led to Christ. I know I am and I am not catholic. So how many others are there? Do you think all Roman Catholics will go to heaven( paradise)? If not why not?
“Jesus will judge us …” LOL Exactly, my point. Look to scripture. They bible is so full of Jesus in your heart and being led by the Holy Spirit that to place anything in front of Him is pure folly. Let go and believe in Him and in His strength. I am not asking you to let go of the Roman Catholic church, but I am saying to put Christ first, not any mortal thing.
I suppose the Holy Mother Church is the catholic church. As this is not a person but probably a legal entity I dont understand you. Do you mean the men in charge of the Roman Catholic Church. If you think God and Jesus loves them more than you well you should do something about it.The Holy Spirit can’t teach a legal document. You are as much a loved person as any one.Ask your self this question. Do you know right from wrong? God said He put it in your heart. Is it there? If it is who put it there, the Roman Catholic church or God?
I just want you to see the clear roles of the church and the Holy Spirit, not condemn.
I have no fear at all in the direction of my words. In fact, I rejoice that I am allowed to do this, to witness to Him. This is a blessing.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

Exporter:

Please, slow down a minute. Several posts seem to be of the opinion that the universality of the Body of Christ has made Protestantism have an equal footing with Holy Mother Church, i.e., The Catholic Church.

To be specific, I have a grandson who just had his 8th birthday and has spent almost 4 years in a Catholic School. If what has been said , is true, then maybe I should tell him," Hey Matthew, all this stuff you are learning about our church isn’t too important, you can be a Protestant when you grow up, then you can be “saved” and not worry later on, because the two churches are equal".

I do not think even one Catholic will tell me that I should tell Matt that. Why did I say all of this? Because something is wrong with saying the Protestant view of salvation is the same as the Catholic view.:yup:

Hi Exporter,
I am not a catholic but I am truly a Christain, being led by the Holy Spirit. I realise you dont know me and I could be just mouthing off or genuinely mistaken but I give you permission to ask anything to satisfy yourself of my position in Christ.
I am proof that your judgment against people who are not members of the catholic church is ill founded.
It isnt a matter of equality of churches. God destroyed His earthly temple because the temple is in you and me, irrespective of the earthly church you attend. What is important is do you have the Holy Spirit and Christ in your heart, What is not important is the name you give to yourself.
Your post reminds me of the parable about the farmer employing people at different times of the day. All received the same wages.
Jesus has not clumped all Christians together in a lump in one denominational church. We are spread out all over the world in all societies to minister to those in our local environment.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[enanneman]

edwinG:

Hi Eric,
I hope you are well and I am so pleased you are consciously trying to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit.How your faith will grow and joy and peace will fill your heart.
I have bold typed some passages. “But it’s the” is a mistake I cant clear.
His Churdh, The Church. What you mean, I suppose is Christ’s church. Look into your heart and see why you dont type Roman Catholic Church. To me all who obey the Holy Spirit will be led to Christ. I know I am and I am not catholic. So how many others are there? Do you think all Roman Catholics will go to heaven( paradise)? If not why not?
“Jesus will judge us …” LOL Exactly, my point. Look to scripture. They bible is so full of Jesus in your heart and being led by the Holy Spirit that to place anything in front of Him is pure folly. Let go and believe in Him and in His strength. I am not asking you to let go of the Roman Catholic church, but I am saying to put Christ first, not any mortal thing.
I suppose the Holy Mother Church is the catholic church. As this is not a person but probably a legal entity I dont understand you. Do you mean the men in charge of the Roman Catholic Church. If you think God and Jesus loves them more than you well you should do something about it.The Holy Spirit can’t teach a legal document. You are as much a loved person as any one.Ask your self this question. Do you know right from wrong? God said He put it in your heart. Is it there? If it is who put it there, the Roman Catholic church or God?
I just want you to see the clear roles of the church and the Holy Spirit, not condemn.
I have no fear at all in the direction of my words. In fact, I rejoice that I am allowed to do this, to witness to Him. This is a blessing.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hello Edwin, I hope you are doing well!

Well, your post ranges further a field then the original question of this thread. You seem to be questioning why we need the Catholic Church to find Christ (or any denomination, for that matter). I encourage you, if you wish to explore this, to start a new thread.

However, to discuss what you wrote in the confines of this thread’s subject. I believe everything you said. People most assuredly should not let an institution get between their relationship with the Lord. They definitely should be open to the Spirit and let Him move within them.

But, in terms of salvation, how are people to learn of the Lord and the Spirit without an institution of man? Certainly, people are born with a natural desire to know God. As the Catechism states:

The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for. (Paragraph #27 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

But only through the revelation of the Catholic Church can we come to know about the nature God and understand how He wants us to live our lives. In other words, you ask me to let the Spirit guide me and to obey (and, believe me, Edwin, I pray for this continually), but the only feedback I get are feelings. In other words, if I pray for the Spirit to move me and I feel good about the life I’m living, then I’m going to assume that I’m living the life He wants me to live. Conversely, if I feel poorly about the life that I’m living, then I’m going to assume I’m not living the life He wants me to live.

That’s the problem with living a Christian life outside the Catholic Church (or any denomination for that matter). All you have to go by is feelings. And, feelings are incredibly subjective and affected by so many factors, from brain chemistry to atmospheric conditions to how much sleep one got last night. It seems that man is taking a great risk to assume salvation based on how strong he feels his relationship with Christ is.

(Continued below)

 

[enanneman]

(Continued from above)

But, being a Catholic means you have access to the Sacraments. And, through the Sacraments, you are guaranteed to be united in Christ.

A priest friend of mine used an analogy to explain this:

A husband and wife’s anniversary was approaching, and so they made plans to meet for dinner. The man, instead of going to the restaurant, took a nice walk in the park. While walking, he thought nice thoughts about his wife, replayed conversations and scenes with her in his mind, and even imagined she was present, speaking out loud to her. Later that night, at home, he relayed all of this to her and told her what a neat experience it was. The wife said to him, “That’s nice, but you could have actually been physically present with me had you met me for dinner!”

Why limit yourself to prayer when you can also take Jesus into yourself though the blessed Sacrament? Especially–and this is the important point–when Jesus tells us to do so.

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.” (John 6:53-54.)

Getting back to my original question. Catholicism offers the same hope of salvation as do the other Protestant denominations, but it offers the fullness of faith that comes from the sacred traditions passed down from the Apostles. It doesn’t take away from God, it only adds to it. It offers the Sacraments that connect you with God throughout your life. It offers the teachings of 2,000 years to guide us in our personal lives. (And, had I only followed these teachings earlier in my life, I could have avoided so many pitfalls.) And, Edwin, believe me, the regular taking in of Christ’s body throughout your life will leave a mark on you.

Peace and God bless, my brother in Christ!

Eric

 

[mark_a]

Because many Protestants are taught this in their churches?!?!?!?!?