Doesn't Judas close the door on 'once saved, always saved'?

[JohnPaul]

Judas was a true believer, one of the chosen twelve, and yet Jesus said of him after his betrayal better for him to not have been born. (That doesn’t sound like paradise.)

I brought this up to my niece who left the Church and became an evangelical and have yet to hear a response from her to this point.

Isn’t what happened to Judas sufficient evidence to refute ‘once saved, always saved’? Do we even need to go any further with it than that? What is the Protestant retort to this point?

Thanks in advance.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

Judas was a true believer,

That’s called assumption.

one of the chosen twelve, and yet Jesus said of him after his betrayal better for him to not have been born. (That doesn’t sound like paradise.)

He took his own life in a horrible way… Perhaps that’s what Jesus referenced. But your owe your eternal soul to Judas. Better pray for him, not pick at him.

I brought this up to my niece who left the Church and became an evangelical and have yet to hear a response from her to this point.

I’m protestant, I’d rather your niece be RCC than evangelical. While there are absolutely GREAT Evangelicals for God, as a rule, the mass of them are anti christ.

Isn’t what happened to Judas sufficient evidence to refute ‘once saved, always saved’? Do we even need to go any further with it than that? What is the Protestant retort to this point?

Thanks in advance.

TO not hijack the thread, I won’t give you my response to OSAS. But, you can message me anytime you want and I’ll be glad to talk with you.

 

[Nita]

Judas was a true believer, one of the chosen twelve, and yet Jesus said of him after his betrayal better for him to not have been born. (That doesn’t sound like paradise.)

I brought this up to my niece who left the Church and became an evangelical and have yet to hear a response from her to this point.

Isn’t what happened to Judas sufficient evidence to refute ‘once saved, always saved’? Do we even need to go any further with it than that? What is the Protestant retort to this point?

Thanks in advance.

I think those who hold to OSAS would merely say he was never saved in the first place. This would be the response also for any who had professed belief in Jesus and lived as Christians for a time but later rejected belief in Jesus. (Presumably they would mean that the person’s profession of faith was superficial, not really meant or understood, …)

 

[SMA_12]

Judas was a true believer, one of the chosen twelve, and yet Jesus said of him after his betrayal better for him to not have been born. (That doesn’t sound like paradise.)

I brought this up to my niece who left the Church and became an evangelical and have yet to hear a response from her to this point.

Isn’t what happened to Judas sufficient evidence to refute ‘once saved, always saved’? Do we even need to go any further with it than that? What is the Protestant retort to this point?

Thanks in advance.

In my opinion, yes it should be enough. But two things to consider:

1. The Church has never declared any specific soul to be in Hell, even Judas, likely as it may be.
2. A OSAS believer will most likely come back with a response that “Judas was never really saved to begin with.” So be prepared to respond to that. Perhaps something along the lines of “Then how do you know you are really saved right now, what if you screw up and do something horrible in 20 years…” Or repeat Paul’s warning speaking to people who already believe to “go about your salvation with fear and trembling.”

 

[Fidelis]

A OSAS believer will most likely come back with a response that “Judas was never really saved to begin with.” So be prepared to respond to that. Perhaps something along the lines of “Then how do you know you are really saved right now, what if you screw up and do something horrible in 20 years…” Or repeat Paul’s warning speaking to people who already believe to “go about your salvation with fear and trembling.”

Exactly. I’ve had this discussion with many OSAS believers and brought up this point in response to their standard rebuttal. I then add, “Don’t we both know people who thought they were saved, but later completely abandoned Christ?” If the Protestant you are talking to has been a believer for any amount of time and is honest, he will have to admit that is true. The most common response I get to this, however, is a thoughtful silence…

 

[JohnPaul]

In my opinion, yes it should be enough. But two things to consider:

1. The Church has never declared any specific soul to be in Hell, even Judas, likely as it may be.
2. A OSAS believer will most likely come back with a response that “Judas was never really saved to begin with.” So be prepared to respond to that. Perhaps something along the lines of “Then how do you know you are really saved right now, what if you screw up and do something horrible in 20 years…” Or repeat Paul’s warning speaking to people who already believe to “go about your salvation with fear and trembling.”

1. True, but I hope Jesus says to me what he said to the good thief vs. Judas!
2. So if Judas was not a true believer, why did he traipse around with him for 3 years? Why didn’t he leave? As one of the apostles said, “where else would we go?”

 

[DaveBj]

In my opinion, yes it should be enough. But two things to consider:

1. The Church has never declared any specific soul to be in Hell, even Judas, likely as it may be.
2. **A OSAS believer will most likely come back with a response that “Judas was never really saved to begin with.” **So be prepared to respond to that. Perhaps something along the lines of “Then how do you know you are really saved right now, what if you screw up and do something horrible in 20 years…” Or repeat Paul’s warning speaking to people who already believe to “go about your salvation with fear and trembling.”

This was (and still is) my opinion, but not in the way that Calvinists say that someone was “never saved to begin with.” Rather, my take on the question is that no one (other than Mary, who got her salvation “on credit”) could be “saved” until after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Judas chose to commit suicide before that took place.

 

[JohnPaul]

Thanks for the response thus far.

So if Judas doesn’t close the door on the argument, doesn’t the fact that Jesus told us to pluck out our eye if it causes us to sin lest we go to hell do it?

Any healthy man with a pulse is susceptible to sexual sin - without exception - no matter how much of a true believer he is - so how in the world can we know he won’t give in to it?

 

[spiderweb]

It’s also interesting to note that after Jesus changed the water into wine at the wedding feast in Cana in John 2:11 it states “And his disciples believed in him”.

I would argue that this statement does show that Judas had “saving faith” since the scriptures tell us that his disciples believed in him. Anyone can try to explain away what it says by saying that “believing” does not constitute “saving faith”. But then what does constitute saving faith for a person that believes in OSAS and how do you know that you have it?

 

[HeteroDoxical]

Paul, John, and Christ speak of a maturity amongst believers. Some are mature, some aren’t. The Greek word for mature is often translated PERFECT.

Paul speaks that himself and others are perfect. And that himself and others are no longer in the flesh. Both verses give the OSAS fits because they don’t take the time to understand the topic and conversation. They see the words and immediately go into redefinition mode.

Paul speaks of Milk and Meat. Most of letters Paul writes are to Milk to help them get to Meat. After all, the MEAT believers are there already they don’t need a map.

John speaks of those in fellowship with Christ, and those that aren’t. Both have atonement, and Christ as their mediator, but one is still on the way to fellowship and not quite there yet.

Christ prays for us to be in Him as he is in God.
Paul writes that we would be as spiritually mature (perfect) as the FULLNESS OF JESUS’ PERFECTION.

Now, until one is perfected/ matured/ finished in growth, I’d say you can lose it. Once matured, you are there forever.

What this view does, other than make scripture fit together better, is makes people aware that some verses are speaking of the MATURE believers, and some of the ones trying to get there.

And at that point, you can have resolution with NO issues in scripture.

 

[Zachary]

But your owe your eternal soul to Judas. Better pray for him, not pick at him.

Wow…no. We owe our eternal souls to Jesus.

And unless you suggest Judas is in pergatory, why would you suggest we had better pray for him? OSAS conflicts with the need to pray for Judas. …

Call me daft, but, are you suggesting also with post 10 that there are those who are perfect, inclusing anyone who is “saved” now, including, therefore, yourself?

Anyway, there are many great resources on this site to shoot down OSAS, including many theological and other, just logical.

 

[lax16]

1. A OSAS believer will most likely come back with a response that “Judas was never really saved to begin with.” So be prepared to respond to that. Perhaps something along the lines of “Then how do you know you are really saved right now, what if you screw up and do something horrible in 20 years…” Or repeat Paul’s warning speaking to people who already believe to “go about your salvation with fear and trembling.”

Can a person be baptized and not be saved? I am assuming Judas would have been baptized.

 

[Fidelis]

Can a person be baptized and not be saved? I am assuming Judas would have been baptized.

Yes, even though Christ requires us to be baptized, baptism is not a guarantee of salvation. One has the free will to reject God’s grace, including those great graces conferred by the Sacrament.

 

[DaveBj]

It’s also interesting to note that after Jesus changed the water into wine at the wedding feast in Cana in John 2:11 it states “And his disciples believed in him”.

I would argue that this statement does show that Judas had “saving faith” since the scriptures tell us that his disciples believed in him. Anyone can try to explain away what it says by saying that “believing” does not constitute “saving faith”. But then what does constitute saving faith for a person that believes in OSAS and how do you know that you have it?

Bear in mind that the Cana incident occurred at the very start of Jesus ministry, before he had his full complement of disciples.

Can a person be baptized and not be saved? I am assuming Judas would have been baptized.

To quote an old Baptist preacher, “If you baptize an unrepentant sinner, all you get is a wet sinner.”

At the time of the recruitment of the disciples, we would be talking about adult baptism of converts. Judas would have been baptized, either by John the Baptist, or by one of Jesus’ early disciples, based on his own statement, which may or may not have been sincere.

 

[Nita]

1. So if Judas was not a true believer, why did he traipse around with him for 3 years? Why didn’t he leave? As one of the apostles said, “where else would we go?”

It is possible to sin gravely even if one is a true believer; Peter’s denial is a good example.

Judas may have truly believed Jesus was God and the Messiah, and even believing
may just have opposed the way Jesus was going be Israel’s Messiah;
may just have disliked the things Jesus said we must do;
may have been greedy for the money; …
Whatever the reason for his grave sin, the difference between Judas and Peter is that Peter repented of his sin and sought forgiveness; Judas did not. Instead, recognizing the gravity of what he’'d done, he chose to despair and take his own life.

 

[lax16]

Yes, even though Christ requires us to be baptized, baptism is not a guarantee of salvation. One has the free will to reject God’s grace, including those great graces conferred by the Sacrament.

Yes, that is true.

I was referring to the Protestant belief in OSAS. Once a person is baptized I would assume they are believers and if Judas was baptized, then he was a believer/follower of Christ.

 

[Nita]

Now, until one is perfected/ matured/ finished in growth, I’d say you can lose it. Once matured, you are there forever.

Is this a typical OSAS (or other Protestant) position? If so, it brings to mind a question. OSASer’s usually claim to “know” they are saved. So, how do they know they are mature enough to claim that?

 

[DaveBj]

Yes, that is true.

I was referring to the Protestant belief in OSAS. Once a person is baptized I would assume they are believers and if Judas was baptized, then he was a believer/follower of Christ.

. . . unless his baptism was based on a false profession of faith, as noted above.

 

[lax16]

To quote an old Baptist preacher, “If you baptize an unrepentant sinner, all you get is a wet sinner.”

At the time of the recruitment of the disciples, we would be talking about adult baptism of converts. Judas would have been baptized, either by John the Baptist, or by one of Jesus’ early disciples, based on his own statement, which may or may not have been sincere.

So do Protestants state that only sincere baptisms provide assured salvation?

 

[lax16]

We must have been typing at the same time!