Doesn't Judas close the door on 'once saved, always saved'?

[DaveBj]

So do Protestants state that only sincere baptisms provide assured salvation?

It depends on which Protestants you’re talking about. I can’t speak for Anglicans, Lutherans, or Reformed, but Evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. will deny that baptism, sincere or otherwise, provides or assures anything; the salvation comes from “making Jesus the Lord of your life,” or whatever wording they might use for the conversion experience. Baptism follows conversion and is a symbolic act of following Jesus in obedience to his example.

 

[JohnPaul]

But your owe your eternal soul to Judas.

You sure about that? You don’t think God could have figured out a way to save us another way? He’s a pretty smart guy.

 

[DaveBj]

You sure about that? You don’t think God could have figured out a way to save us another way? He’s a pretty smart guy.

 

[lax16]

It depends on which Protestants you’re talking about. I can’t speak for Anglicans, Lutherans, or Reformed, but Evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. will deny that baptism, sincere or otherwise, provides or assures anything; the salvation comes from “making Jesus the Lord of your life,” or whatever wording they might use for the conversion experience. Baptism follows conversion and is a symbolic act of following Jesus in obedience to his example.

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Reepicheep]

I think those who hold to OSAS would merely say he was never saved in the first place. This would be the response also for any who had professed belief in Jesus and lived as Christians for a time but later rejected belief in Jesus. (Presumably they would mean that the person’s profession of faith was superficial, not really meant or understood, …)

There it is. Once Saved, Always Saved, therefore any professed Christian who falls away just Was Never Really Saved.

 

[lax16]

Judas was a true believer, one of the chosen twelve, and yet Jesus said of him after his betrayal better for him to not have been born. (That doesn’t sound like paradise.)

I brought this up to my niece who left the Church and became an evangelical and have yet to hear a response from her to this point.

Isn’t what happened to Judas sufficient evidence to refute ‘once saved, always saved’? Do we even need to go any further with it than that? What is the Protestant retort to this point?

Thanks in advance.

Maybe this helps: (John Ch 6)

61 Jesus was aware that his followers were complaining about it and said, 'Does this disturb you?

62 What if you should see the Son of man ascend to where he was before?

63 'It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

64 ‘But there are some of you who do not believe.’ For Jesus knew from the outset who did not believe and who was to betray him.

65 He went on, ‘This is why I told you that no one could come to me except by the gift of the Father.’

66 After this, many of his disciples went away and accompanied him no more.

67 Then Jesus said to the Twelve, ‘What about you, do you want to go away too?’

68 Simon Peter answered, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the message of eternal life,

69 and we believe; we have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.’

70 Jesus replied to them, ‘Did I not choose the Twelve of you? Yet one of you is a devil.’

71 He meant Judas son of Simon Iscariot, since this was the man, one of the Twelve, who was to betray him.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Thanks for the response thus far.

So if Judas doesn’t close the door on the argument, doesn’t the fact that Jesus told us to pluck out our eye if it causes us to sin lest we go to hell do it?

**Any healthy man with a pulse is susceptible to sexual sin - **without exception - no matter how much of a true believer he is - so how in the world can we know he won’t give in to it?

You seem quite taken by that phrase! Is this in relation to the priest who went to dinner with your niece (Same one? Different one?) again?

I know the OP is a different topic, but it seems as though it’s on your mind

 

[HeteroDoxical]

Wow…no. We owe our eternal souls to Jesus.

And unless you suggest Judas is in pergatory, why would you suggest we had better pray for him? OSAS conflicts with the need to pray for Judas. …

Call me daft, but, are you suggesting also with post 10 that there are those who are perfect, inclusing anyone who is “saved” now, including, therefore, yourself?

Anyway, there are many great resources on this site to shoot down OSAS, including many theological and other, just logical.

Had Judas not betrayed Christ and Christ died… what do you have.

it’s Purgatory.

I scoff at OSAS.

Judas was a crucial part of what had to happen for Christ to happen to the cross. I took nothing away from the Christ, I just stood outside of your wee liddul box.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

You sure about that? You don’t think God could have figured out a way to save us another way? He’s a pretty smart guy.

I’m sure about what I said, yes.

God did not choose another way, so you owe Judas.

God need not have had Christ die on the cross to forgive sins either. The blood of Christ holds no magical power over God. It’s the covenant God made with us concerning that blood that does anything at all.

Think about that before you crucify me.

The fact is, this is the way HE chose to do it, so that’s the way it had to happen.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

So do Protestants state that only sincere baptisms provide assured salvation?

Most protestants see baptism as a ritualistic procedure, as was the baptisms for the hebrew people. We do it because Christ asked. But we acknowledge it’s God’s Grace, no matter what hoops you feel you should jump through, that brings salvation.

You guys take a couple of verses a lot more literally than we tend to.

WHICH is fun for you to put in the face of a biblical literalist and show them they are very selective in the verses they take literally.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

Is this a typical OSAS (or other Protestant) position? If so, it brings to mind a question. OSASer’s usually claim to “know” they are saved. So, how do they know they are mature enough to claim that?

Nita, as per my name, I’m a bit off center. Some of the Wesleyan faiths would see it my way, among the educated anyway. I’m sorta my own lone thinker on this for the most part. Probably not, but that’s my experience so far.

I think OSAS people are fundamentally whack. They are boisterous, loud, unforgiving, and somewhat shortsided and has God serving them not them serving God. OF COURSE, not all of them, there are some awesome people that are OSAS too.

But for the last question, taking the OSAS out of the question, my answer would be, don’t confuse under Grace/salvation, with Maturation/Perfected believer. It’s two different issues. But, when one is under Grace, and growing towards maturation, they could walk away. They are not a remade person yet. Once remade, You are of His heart and of His mind, and your life reflects Him, without you thinking about it.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

Originally Posted by JohnPaul View Post
Any healthy man with a pulse is susceptible to sexual sin - without exception - no matter how much of a true believer he is - so how in the world can we know he won’t give in to it?​

JP, that is not scriptural. In fact it directly contradicts scripture. Not sure you care, but you should be aware.

 

[JohnPaul]

You seem quite taken by that phrase! Is this in relation to the priest who went to dinner with your niece (Same one? Different one?) again?

Different niece, big family. I would want this niece to go to dinner with a priest … maybe he could talk some sense into her.

 

[JohnPaul]

Originally Posted by JohnPaul View Post
Any healthy man with a pulse is susceptible to sexual sin - without exception - no matter how much of a true believer he is - so how in the world can we know he won’t give in to it?​

JP, that is not scriptural. In fact it directly contradicts scripture. Not sure you care, but you should be aware.

We are sexual people and so therefore we are all susceptible to sexual sin. Is there anyone who can claim they never looked twice at a woman? that they never masturbated? Not very many I am guessing.

But back to the question:

If we cannot lose our salvation through any act of our own, why does Jesus tell his followers that they should go to such extreme measures to avoid sin (pluck out our eyes, etc.) lest we “go into hell, into the unquenchable fire”?

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

John Paul, some people will say that Jesus’ teachings in the Gospels are just to show us how impossible it is to really fulfill the commandments, hence the need for the Protestant model of justification where our own works are not considered in the judgment. Some people really say this.

 

[Zachary]

Had Judas not betrayed Christ and Christ died… what do you have.

it’s Purgatory.

I scoff at OSAS.

Judas was a crucial part of what had to happen for Christ to happen to the cross. I took nothing away from the Christ, I just stood outside of your wee liddul box.

Lol, sure, so was Pilate, the guy who chopped down the tree, the guy who nailed Him up, the ones who made the road to Galgatha…the list is endless…

We owe nothing to Judas. That statement of yours is silly. Had Judas not pointed the way, the Jews would have gotten to Him eventually. It’s not like Jesus was trying to hide.

Anyway, Jesus didnt NEED Judas. He just happened to know who was the snake.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I’m not sure its possible to conclusively demonstrate that Judas was “saved,” or at least I cannot recall any conclusive statement from the Gospels. However, even if he is not the best refutation of OSAS, I think he is a great refutation of the so-called “invisible Church.”

 

[kbking]

My sister is a Baptist and believes that purgatory does not exist. She states that purgatory is a Catholic belief and there is no reference to purgatory in the Bible. I have no comment, but believe that Judas could be a clue to one that needs purgatory.

 

[Ignatius]

Judas was a true believer, one of the chosen twelve, and yet Jesus said of him after his betrayal better for him to not have been born.
.

You would also thing the many Scripture verses adminishing to keep on the right path or be cut off would be clear enough for anyone, but apparently not. Not Even Rom 11:21-22
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Seems irrefutably clear, but “there is none so blind as those who refuse to see”.

 

[onenow1]

It is possible to sin gravely even if one is a true believer; Peter’s denial is a good example.

Judas may have truly believed Jesus was God and the Messiah, and even believing
may just have opposed the way Jesus was going be Israel’s Messiah;
may just have disliked the things Jesus said we must do;
may have been greedy for the money; …
Whatever the reason for his grave sin, the difference between Judas and Peter is that Peter repented of his sin and sought forgiveness; Judas did not. Instead, recognizing the gravity of what he’'d done, he chose to despair and take his own life.

• don’t know, but I suppose Jesus gives us every possible chance to repent, even at the very last moment, when it is to late humanly to reverse the course of our actions…*

God Bless