C
Christian50
Guest
Hello Lax,
Very good post.
Of course we need to present more RCC teachings to answer the OP.
God bless.
Christian
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Very good post.
Of course we need to present more RCC teachings to answer the OP.
God bless.
Christian
P
Pax
Guest
For sure, for sure!!!Judas was a true believer, one of the chosen twelve, and yet Jesus said of him after his betrayal better for him to not have been born. (That doesn’t sound like paradise.)
I brought this up to my niece who left the Church and became an evangelical and have yet to hear a response from her to this point.
Isn’t what happened to Judas sufficient evidence to refute ‘once saved, always saved’? Do we even need to go any further with it than that? What is the Protestant retort to this point?
Thanks in advance.
The typical argument presented to me concerning Judas by non-Catholic Christians asserts that Judas was not a believer.
Let’s see what scripture says about Judas.
John 17:12 which says “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of **them **is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.” Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has **given **them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the hand of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. It is for this reason that the “repentant sinner that is rejoiced over in heaven is compared to a lost sheep.” It is for this reason that “if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
And make no mistake about Judas and his position as an apostle. Judas was one of those that believed at the marriage feast of Cana[Jn 2:11]. Judas is present when Peter makes his public confession of faith and Jesus is revealed as the son of God[Matt 16:15-18]. Like the rest of the twelve, Judas has healed the sick and cast out demons while preaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Judas has done these things by the power of the Holy Spirit[Matt 10:7-8, Mark 3:14-19 and Mark 6:13]. Judas was also present when Jesus gave the apostles as a group the “power to bind and loose” in Matthew 18:18. Judas believed and is one of the saved until he “betrayed” Jesus.
Judas is even referred to as “elect.”(Gk,eklegomai - Strong’s word # 1586 – Lk 6:13, Jn 6:70; cf. Mk 13:20, Jn 13:18, 15:16,19, Acts 1:2), and then falls away and is damned.
In Matthew 14 we are told that Jesus tells the disciples[that is the twelve] to get into the boat and to cross to the other side of the sea. Jesus then walks on the water and Peter joins him and begins to sink beneath the waves as his faith falters. Jesus then helps Peter stay afloat and then they both get back into the boat. Once in the boat scripture tells us the following:
Matthew 14:33
“And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”
Judas worshiped Jesus and declared his faith by stating that Jesus was truly the son of God. Judas was a believer but he “became” a betrayer.[Luke 6:16]
In Matthew 19:28 we also read this: "Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Obviously at that point in time, Judas was among the twelve and was going to be sitting on a throne with the rest of the twelve in heaven judging the twelve tribes of Israel. In the end that was not to be…Judas betrayed Jesus.
Jesus calls the apostles his friends. This includes Judas. He even individually refers to Judas as “friend” at the betrayal. Likewise we read this in Jn 13:18 in reference to Judas:
Jesus says: " I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’"
This reference to the fulfillment of scripture leads us to Psalm 41:9 which says:
“Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.”
Judas is referred to as a bosom friend. Judas “had” equal standing with the apostles which he traded for thirty pieces of silver.
Once Judas betrayed, Jesus, he still could have properly repented and been restored to salvation. Unfortunately, even though Judas repented before the chief priest and the elders in returning the thirty pieces of silver, he did not have a godly grief of repentance. His repentance was the “worldly repentance” that Paul says “leads to death as opposed to a godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”[See 2 Cor 7:10]” This is the difference between the repentance of Peter after denying Jesus and the worldly repentance of Judas after the betrayal. Jesus even tells Peter that Satan wished to sift him like wheat but that He[Jesus] had prayed for him so that Peter’s “faith would not fail” and that when He[Peter] turned back to Jesus, that he was to strengthen his brothers.[See Luke 22:32] Peter and Judas both had free will and made their choices. God’s grace was there for them. Peter repented with a godly grief, Judas repented with a worldly grief.
cont. on next post
P
Pax
Guest
cont. from prior post
Both Peter and Judas were believers, both had cast out demons and healed the sick by way of the Holy Spirit, and both were given power to bind and loose. Moreover, both were under the protection of Jesus and were given to Jesus by the Father. Neither Peter nor Judas was snatched from the hand of Jesus or the Father. Peter denied Jesus and temporarily chose to leave that protection, but he freely repented with a godly grief, whereas Judas freely chose to betray Jesus and in his own weakness chose a worldly grief that leads to death.
–Scripture indicates that Judas was an apostle with all of the blessings and grace granted to them until the discourse on the bread of life at the end of John 6. Judas apparently didn’t believe that Jesus would give us his body and blood as true food and true drink. If this makes Judas a false believer, then every non-Catholic that does not believe that Jesus gives us his body as true food and his blood as true drink as Catholics do is also a “false believer.” If not, then Judas was just as much a true a believer as all non-Catholics that do not believe the words of Jesus concerning his body and blood as true food and true drink. You can’t have it both ways.
–After this Jesus and the disciples went to Jerusalem for the Passover.
*** Please note that scripture tells us in Luke 6:16 that:
“…Judas Iscariot,… became a traitor.”
Judas was not always a traitor and he was not always a son of perdition. He instead “became” a traitor and the son of perdition(i.e. a wicked man).
Chronologically scripture tells us when this happened:
–Luke 22:1-6
“Now the feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death; for they feared the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve; he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and engaged to give him money. So he agreed, and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of the multitude.”
In Acts 1:24-25 when the Church prepared to choose a replacement for Judas Peter says the following:
"And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”
Judas “turned aside” from that which was given him by God. Judas turned away from the gifts God gave to him through Jesus. Think about that…he turned away from the gift of salvation to go to his own place. This is exactly what each and everyone of us is “free” to do. OSAS is simply a false doctrine.
Both Peter and Judas were believers, both had cast out demons and healed the sick by way of the Holy Spirit, and both were given power to bind and loose. Moreover, both were under the protection of Jesus and were given to Jesus by the Father. Neither Peter nor Judas was snatched from the hand of Jesus or the Father. Peter denied Jesus and temporarily chose to leave that protection, but he freely repented with a godly grief, whereas Judas freely chose to betray Jesus and in his own weakness chose a worldly grief that leads to death.
–Scripture indicates that Judas was an apostle with all of the blessings and grace granted to them until the discourse on the bread of life at the end of John 6. Judas apparently didn’t believe that Jesus would give us his body and blood as true food and true drink. If this makes Judas a false believer, then every non-Catholic that does not believe that Jesus gives us his body as true food and his blood as true drink as Catholics do is also a “false believer.” If not, then Judas was just as much a true a believer as all non-Catholics that do not believe the words of Jesus concerning his body and blood as true food and true drink. You can’t have it both ways.
–After this Jesus and the disciples went to Jerusalem for the Passover.
*** Please note that scripture tells us in Luke 6:16 that:
“…Judas Iscariot,… became a traitor.”
Judas was not always a traitor and he was not always a son of perdition. He instead “became” a traitor and the son of perdition(i.e. a wicked man).
Chronologically scripture tells us when this happened:
–Luke 22:1-6
“Now the feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death; for they feared the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve; he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and engaged to give him money. So he agreed, and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of the multitude.”
In Acts 1:24-25 when the Church prepared to choose a replacement for Judas Peter says the following:
"And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”
Judas “turned aside” from that which was given him by God. Judas turned away from the gifts God gave to him through Jesus. Think about that…he turned away from the gift of salvation to go to his own place. This is exactly what each and everyone of us is “free” to do. OSAS is simply a false doctrine.
C
Christian50
Guest
Hello JohnPaul and hello Pax,Judas was a true believer, one of the chosen twelve, and yet Jesus said of him after his betrayal better for him to not have been born. (That doesn’t sound like paradise.)
I brought this up to my niece who left the Church and became an evangelical and have yet to hear a response from her to this point.
Isn’t what happened to Judas sufficient evidence to refute ‘once saved, always saved’? Do we even need to go any further with it than that? What is the Protestant retort to this point?
Thanks in advance.
It looks like your nice cannot answer your question.
If we study RCC teachings then we will know the answer.
If we combine together:
a. The theological FACTS of the “Book of Life.”
b. The theological FACTS of God’s predestination to Heaven.
c. The theological FACTS of Baptism.
Then we know the correct answer to your question.
Let’s see the following THEOLOGICAL FACTS.
THE “BOOK OF LIFE.”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA. The predestination of the elect.
Quote: God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes).
This book of life is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits NEITHER additions NOR erasures.
End quote. Emphasize added.
[CCC 600] “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his ETERNAL PLAN OF PREDESTINATION, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.” End quote.
Rev.13:8 and Rev 17:8; Eph.1:4; 2 Tim.1:9; and [CCC 600] helps us to understand the “Book of Life.”
God has completed the “Book of Life” before founding of the world, before times eternal; by blotting out the names of the reprobates from the “Book of life” as it is described in [CCC 600]:
It is done according to each person’s free response to His grace.
In effect, the reprobates by their rejection of the grace of God, *they removed themselves *from the “Book of Life.”
From the completion of the “Book of Life,” the “Book of Life” admits NEITHER additions NOR erasures.
Of course, even the “Book of Life” is completed before founding of the world before times eternal; for our understanding, when God tells us something connected with the “Book of Life” He speaks to us in our human chronological order. For example: Ex.32:32-33; Rev.3:5; etc…
Continued
C
Christian50
Guest
Continuation
GOD’S PREDESTINATION
God has completed the “Book of Life” before founding of the world, before times eternal; by blotting out the names of the reprobates from the “Book of Life” as it is described in [CCC 600].
God has predestined the rest of the people, those whose name left in the “Book of Life” to heaven (called ELECT).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA. The predestination of the elect.
Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED from all eternity.
Nor could it be otherwise.
For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.”
God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits neither additions nor erasures.
(2) The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elect, follows naturally from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding THE PREDESTINED IS UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations.
Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.
Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names and their entire career on earth, should be present before the Divine mind from all eternity. End quote. Emphasize added.
KEY POINTS:
a. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.
b. Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.
Continued
GOD’S PREDESTINATION
God has completed the “Book of Life” before founding of the world, before times eternal; by blotting out the names of the reprobates from the “Book of Life” as it is described in [CCC 600].
God has predestined the rest of the people, those whose name left in the “Book of Life” to heaven (called ELECT).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA. The predestination of the elect.
Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED from all eternity.
Nor could it be otherwise.
For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.”
God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits neither additions nor erasures.
(2) The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elect, follows naturally from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding THE PREDESTINED IS UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations.
Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.
Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names and their entire career on earth, should be present before the Divine mind from all eternity. End quote. Emphasize added.
KEY POINTS:
a. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.
b. Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.
Continued
C
Christian50
Guest
Continuation
BAPTISM
From the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of the “Book of life” and from the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of God’s predestination, NATURALLY follows:
The THEOLOGICAL FACTS of Baptism have been built on the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of the “Book of life” and the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of God’s predestination.
From the facts of the “Book of Life” and from the facts of God’s predestination to Heaven, NATURALLY follows; there are two kinds of Baptism; VALID Baptism and INVALID Baptism.
In order to understand Baptism; it is INDISPENSABLE to know:
a. What is a valid Baptism and who are those who are having valid Baptism.
b. What is an invalid Baptism and who are those who are having invalid Baptism.
Valid Baptism is Baptism into the Body of Christ.
Baptism also is a translation from the state of mortal sin to the state of grace.
Ordinarily we enter the Body of Christ which is the state of grace through Baptism.
Baptism of desire or Baptism of blood also sufficient to enter into the Body of Christ/state of grace.
From the “Book of Life” and from God’s predestination to Heaven NATURALLY FOLLOWS, **only those **whose name is in the “Book of Life,” and predestined to Heaven has VALID Baptism.
Name being in the “Book of Life” and being predestined to Heaven PRECEDES valid Baptism. – For this important theological fact we should always remember to understand valid Baptism.
This means also; the reprobates by their rejection of the grace of God, FORFEIT themselves, with results:
a. Their names are not written in the “Book of Life.”
b. They are not among the predestined to Heaven.
c. They are not baptized into the Body of Christ.
Even if some of the reprobates come into a Christian Church and have water baptism, for their rejection of the grace of God, their baptisms are invalid.
God does not baptize anyone into the Body of Christ whose name is not written in the “Book of Life” and not among the predestined to Heaven.
From the above facts, naturally follows:
There are two kinds of people that makes up the earthly Church.
a. Those people whose name is in the “Book of Life,” predestined to Heaven and have valid Baptism.
b. And those people whose names are not in the “Book of Life,” not among the predestined to Heaven and have invalid Baptism.
Continued
BAPTISM
From the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of the “Book of life” and from the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of God’s predestination, NATURALLY follows:
The THEOLOGICAL FACTS of Baptism have been built on the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of the “Book of life” and the THEOLOGICAL FACTS of God’s predestination.
From the facts of the “Book of Life” and from the facts of God’s predestination to Heaven, NATURALLY follows; there are two kinds of Baptism; VALID Baptism and INVALID Baptism.
In order to understand Baptism; it is INDISPENSABLE to know:
a. What is a valid Baptism and who are those who are having valid Baptism.
b. What is an invalid Baptism and who are those who are having invalid Baptism.
Valid Baptism is Baptism into the Body of Christ.
Baptism also is a translation from the state of mortal sin to the state of grace.
Ordinarily we enter the Body of Christ which is the state of grace through Baptism.
Baptism of desire or Baptism of blood also sufficient to enter into the Body of Christ/state of grace.
From the “Book of Life” and from God’s predestination to Heaven NATURALLY FOLLOWS, **only those **whose name is in the “Book of Life,” and predestined to Heaven has VALID Baptism.
Name being in the “Book of Life” and being predestined to Heaven PRECEDES valid Baptism. – For this important theological fact we should always remember to understand valid Baptism.
This means also; the reprobates by their rejection of the grace of God, FORFEIT themselves, with results:
a. Their names are not written in the “Book of Life.”
b. They are not among the predestined to Heaven.
c. They are not baptized into the Body of Christ.
Even if some of the reprobates come into a Christian Church and have water baptism, for their rejection of the grace of God, their baptisms are invalid.
God does not baptize anyone into the Body of Christ whose name is not written in the “Book of Life” and not among the predestined to Heaven.
From the above facts, naturally follows:
There are two kinds of people that makes up the earthly Church.
a. Those people whose name is in the “Book of Life,” predestined to Heaven and have valid Baptism.
b. And those people whose names are not in the “Book of Life,” not among the predestined to Heaven and have invalid Baptism.
Continued
C
Christian50
Guest
Continuation
KEY POINTS to understand Baptism:
a. Valid baptism is; Baptism into the Body of Christ which is the state of grace.
b. All those people whose names stand written in the “Book of Life” and predestined to Heaven are having valid Baptism.
c. Baptism is invalid if God does not complete the Baptism by baptizing the candidate into the Body of Christ.
The reprobates are having **invalid Baptism **and as the result; they stay in the state of mortal sin.
The activities of the reprobates described in the Bible (for example): Matt.7:15; Matt.13;24-30, 36-43; Matt.24:11, 24; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Thess.2:8-12; 2 Pet.2:13; Rev.13:8; Rev.17:8; etc.
And of course many other people are reprobates because various reason they are rejecting the grace of God.
From the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and from the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven, naturally follows:
The PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA have been built on the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven.
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS
ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA
Vatican City, 13 March 2006 Prot. N. 10279/2006
Your Excellency:
For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …
Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts is part of the Roman Curia. The Roman Curia is charged with helping the Pope in his governance and oversight of the Roman Catholic Church.
In my opinion, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia and [CCC 600]:
Even if the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI would not approve the actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica that would not make any difference, because the *actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica *is simply the sum up of the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven and this theological facts are in operation since about 2,000 years and will be operational until Christ return.
So the actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica did **not **change any Catholic teaching only summed up and made it plain to understand the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination and also made it clear; a valid Baptism is irrevocable.
A valid Baptism is IRREVOCABLE for the following reasons:
a. Name being in the “Book of Life” and being predestined to Heaven PRECEDES valid Baptism.
b. “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED from all eternity.”
c. (a + b = c) The sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
d. (a + b + c = d) NO ONE can have a valid Baptism whose name is not stand written in the “Book of Life” and not predestined to Heaven from all eternity.
Continued
KEY POINTS to understand Baptism:
a. Valid baptism is; Baptism into the Body of Christ which is the state of grace.
b. All those people whose names stand written in the “Book of Life” and predestined to Heaven are having valid Baptism.
c. Baptism is invalid if God does not complete the Baptism by baptizing the candidate into the Body of Christ.
The reprobates are having **invalid Baptism **and as the result; they stay in the state of mortal sin.
The activities of the reprobates described in the Bible (for example): Matt.7:15; Matt.13;24-30, 36-43; Matt.24:11, 24; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Thess.2:8-12; 2 Pet.2:13; Rev.13:8; Rev.17:8; etc.
And of course many other people are reprobates because various reason they are rejecting the grace of God.
From the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and from the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven, naturally follows:
The PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS, ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA have been built on the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven.
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS
ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA
Vatican City, 13 March 2006 Prot. N. 10279/2006
Your Excellency:
For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. …
- It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection. End quote.
Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts is part of the Roman Curia. The Roman Curia is charged with helping the Pope in his governance and oversight of the Roman Catholic Church.
In my opinion, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia and [CCC 600]:
Even if the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI would not approve the actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica that would not make any difference, because the *actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica *is simply the sum up of the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination to Heaven and this theological facts are in operation since about 2,000 years and will be operational until Christ return.
So the actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica did **not **change any Catholic teaching only summed up and made it plain to understand the theological facts of the “Book of Life” and the theological facts of God’s predestination and also made it clear; a valid Baptism is irrevocable.
A valid Baptism is IRREVOCABLE for the following reasons:
a. Name being in the “Book of Life” and being predestined to Heaven PRECEDES valid Baptism.
b. “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been IRREVOCABLY FIXED from all eternity.”
c. (a + b = c) The sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
d. (a + b + c = d) NO ONE can have a valid Baptism whose name is not stand written in the “Book of Life” and not predestined to Heaven from all eternity.
Continued
C
Christian50
Guest
Continuation
SUMMARY
a. God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits NEITHER additions NOR erasures.
b. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.
c. Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.
If a reprobate whose name is not in the “Book of Life” and not predestined to Heaven, would be Baptized into the Body of Christ, being in the state of grace, justified, born again and after his Baptism he would die in the next second, then he would end up in Heaven and God would no longer be omniscient.
JohnPaul and Pax, I believe: The above theological facts given you both clear answer.
God bless
Christian
SUMMARY
a. God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a LIST which CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES OF THE ELECT and admits NEITHER additions NOR erasures.
b. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.
c. Anything INDEFINITE in the number would EO IPSO imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience.
If a reprobate whose name is not in the “Book of Life” and not predestined to Heaven, would be Baptized into the Body of Christ, being in the state of grace, justified, born again and after his Baptism he would die in the next second, then he would end up in Heaven and God would no longer be omniscient.
JohnPaul and Pax, I believe: The above theological facts given you both clear answer.
God bless
Christian
G
Goya
Guest
This has zero practical significance on anything. Same thing I say to the Calvinistas, who seem to obsess on ‘predestination.’Continuation
GOD’S PREDESTINATION
God has completed the “Book of Life” before founding of the world, before times eternal; by blotting out the names of the reprobates from the “Book of Life” as it is described in [CCC 600].
God has predestined the rest of the people, those whose name left in the “Book of Life” to heaven (called ELECT).
…
It is not only completely, patently irrelevant to anything at all, since WE can not know who is predestined, and of the elect, and who is not—it becomes a colossal distraction from what we are called to do, and what is within our control–i.e.–our actions.
It is simply mind-boggling; never ceases to amaze me—how much time, energy, and thought is wasted on the unknowable–(whom is/is not predestined)–and worse still…how much pretension the very concept–and obsessing over it–inevitably causes, as I have yet to meet a single person who obsesses over ‘predestination’…that figured him/herself not to be among ‘the elect’.
Four consecutive, long winded, involved, drawn-out posts of finely knit, tightly woven logic…that has yielded a colorless tunic–as our humble species is inherently, incurably, colorblind.
P
Pax
Guest
Christian 50 in Christ,
Thanks for the posts and careful presentation. I will point out something very important that I believe to be an error. Baptism in the Catholic Church is always valid unless there is improper form, or the minister, or the person being baptized, does not intend what the Church intends for baptism. The Lord does not pick and choose as to who is validly baptized if the matter, form, and proper intent are present.
IMHO, your take on baptism is not only incorrect in how you view the Catholic understanding of the sacrament, but it is also contrary to scripture. Scripture nowhere suggests that all of the validly baptized are also predestined. In fact, scripture makes it clear that this is not always the case. In Mark 16:16 scripture says two very important things about salvation. The first is as follows:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved;"
Both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation. Catholics, of course, include baptism of desire. The elect have believed and are baptized, but the elect are a subset of those that have been baptized and do not make up the entire set of those who are baptized. We know this because the second half of Mark 16:16 says this:
"but he who does not believe will be condemned."
That portion of the verse, within the context established in the first half, speaks of those that have been baptized but no longer believe or perhaps never believed. The only way that their baptism would be invalid is if they “never” believed because in that case they would not have met the criteria of “intent” for baptism.
OSAS believers simply go beyond the meaning of the “elect” and falsely believe that anyone who has been justified is forever saved and thus are members of the elect. Scripture makes it clear that justification can be lost. Some of those that are lost were never justified, some were justified but were not among the elect, some are justified and are elect.
Moreover, no one knows who is and who is not elect. God’s mercy is there until the final breath has been taken so that we can repent. Likewise, we must as scripture warns us “persevere” to the end. It is only those that “persevere until the end” that are among the elect. The elect are a subset of those that have been justified, and they are those that persevere until the end.
I hope that helps and God bless.
Thanks for the posts and careful presentation. I will point out something very important that I believe to be an error. Baptism in the Catholic Church is always valid unless there is improper form, or the minister, or the person being baptized, does not intend what the Church intends for baptism. The Lord does not pick and choose as to who is validly baptized if the matter, form, and proper intent are present.
IMHO, your take on baptism is not only incorrect in how you view the Catholic understanding of the sacrament, but it is also contrary to scripture. Scripture nowhere suggests that all of the validly baptized are also predestined. In fact, scripture makes it clear that this is not always the case. In Mark 16:16 scripture says two very important things about salvation. The first is as follows:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved;"
Both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation. Catholics, of course, include baptism of desire. The elect have believed and are baptized, but the elect are a subset of those that have been baptized and do not make up the entire set of those who are baptized. We know this because the second half of Mark 16:16 says this:
"but he who does not believe will be condemned."
That portion of the verse, within the context established in the first half, speaks of those that have been baptized but no longer believe or perhaps never believed. The only way that their baptism would be invalid is if they “never” believed because in that case they would not have met the criteria of “intent” for baptism.
OSAS believers simply go beyond the meaning of the “elect” and falsely believe that anyone who has been justified is forever saved and thus are members of the elect. Scripture makes it clear that justification can be lost. Some of those that are lost were never justified, some were justified but were not among the elect, some are justified and are elect.
Moreover, no one knows who is and who is not elect. God’s mercy is there until the final breath has been taken so that we can repent. Likewise, we must as scripture warns us “persevere” to the end. It is only those that “persevere until the end” that are among the elect. The elect are a subset of those that have been justified, and they are those that persevere until the end.
I hope that helps and God bless.
L
lightbeamrider
Guest
Think that is above the pay grade of the church.In my opinion, yes it should be enough. But two things to consider:
- The Church has never declared any specific soul to be in Hell, even Judas, likely as it may be.
Judas as the betrayer was predicted in Psalm 41:10
- A OSAS believer will most likely come back with a response that “Judas was never really saved to begin with.” So be prepared to respond to that.
Even my trusted friend, who ate my bread, has raised his heel against me. (NAB)
From notes in my Catholic Study Bible.
John 13:18 cites this verse to characterize Judas as a false friend.
usccb.org/bible/john/13
I am not speaking of all of you. I know those whom I have chosen. But so that the scripture might be fulfilled, ‘The one who ate my food has raised his heel against me.’k 19From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM. 20Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”… 21When he had said this, Jesus was deeply troubled and testified, “Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.”
Its a positional question. Does God know who are His? If so then OSAS is valid even if we do not know. Judas is a poor example since his fate was more or less sealed before his birth.
P
Pax
Guest
OSAS is false and the Church denies it. God’s foreknowledge does not “cause” Judas to fall from grace, and his foreknowledge isn’t what “seals” his fate. Knowledge of something is not automatically the cause. If it were, then God would be the author of sin.Think that is above the pay grade of the church.
Judas as the betrayer was predicted in Psalm 41:10
Even my trusted friend, who ate my bread, has raised his heel against me. (NAB)
From notes in my Catholic Study Bible.
John 13:18 cites this verse to characterize Judas as a false friend.
usccb.org/bible/john/13
I am not speaking of all of you. I know those whom I have chosen. But so that the scripture might be fulfilled, ‘The one who ate my food has raised his heel against me.’k 19From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM. 20Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”… 21When he had said this, Jesus was deeply troubled and testified, “Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.”
Its a positional question. Does God know who are His? If so then OSAS is valid even if we do not know. Judas is a poor example since his fate was more or less sealed before his birth.
Moreover, Judas is described as a friend and not a “false friend”. The reference to the Psalm is evidence of the friendship and it is tragic to have that friendship betrayed. Jesus even calls Judas a friend again in the Garden when he is betrayed[Matt 26:49-50]. Prior to all of this, Jesus refers to his disciples as friends in John 15:15. Judas is in that group. It seems to me that Judas would never have been called a friend if he never had been one. Judas was a close friend of Jesus, but later chose to betray Jesus.
OSAS teaches something quite different from Catholic teaching on predestination of the elect in that OSAS proponents believe that once a person is “justified” they are forever saved. That clearly is not the case, and Judas among others is the scriptural proof of that. Moreover, the New Testament is replete with warnings to “believers” that they fan fall/lose their salvation. According to OSAS proponents “believers” are justified and thus forever saved, but biblical evidence shows that not all believers are faithful. The biblical evidence shows warning after warning that “believers” must persevere until the end.
None of this changes anything concerning the elect for it is they that remain faithful and persevere until the end.
God bless.
L
lightbeamrider
Guest
Does the church endorse probationary salvation? Was Peter always saved in spite of his denials and running away? What did Jesus mean when He said, ‘‘I am not speaking to all of you. I know those whom I have chosen?’’ (Jn.13:18b) [Past tense]OSAS is false and the Church denies it.
Agree.God’s foreknowledge does not “cause” Judas to fall from grace, and his foreknowledge isn’t what “seals” his fate. Knowledge of something is not automatically the cause. If it were, then God would be the author of sin.
Then you problem is with the Catholic commentary.Moreover, Judas is described as a friend and not a “false friend”.
The Greek indicates companion. John 13:18 insinuates Judas was not chosen for the same reasons the others were. Judas, to fulfill scripture. Namely Psalm 41:9.The reference to the Psalm is evidence of the friendship and it is tragic to have that friendship betrayed. Jesus even calls Judas a friend again in the Garden when he is betrayed[Matt 26:49-50]. Prior to all of this, Jesus refers to his disciples as friends in John 15:15. Judas is in that group. It seems to me that Judas would never have been called a friend if he never had been one. Judas was a close friend of Jesus, but later chose to betray Jesus.
Peter and Paul was not forever saved? Methinks you are making an appeal to authority. That is since anybody who does not see things the exact way you do is at odds with the Catholic Church.OSAS teaches something quite different from Catholic teaching on predestination of the elect in that OSAS proponents believe that once a person is “justified” they are forever saved.
Judas was an unrepentant thief before he betrayed Jesus. Peter was a coward when push came to shove.That clearly is not the case, and Judas among others is the scriptural proof of that.
Agree. That is from our perspective. Not the perspective of God. Jesus interceded on behalf of Peter. Jesus did not intercede on behalf of Judas.Moreover, the New Testament is replete with warnings to “believers” that they fan fall/lose their salvation.
P
Pax
Guest
The word “chosen” in John 13:18 refers to all of the apostles including Judas. We know this because in John 6:70 Jesus says:Does the church endorse probationary salvation? Was Peter always saved in spite of his denials and running away? What did Jesus mean when He said, ‘‘I am not speaking to all of you. I know those whom I have chosen?’’ (Jn.13:18b) [Past tense]
"Did I not choose you, the twelve,"
Judas is one of the twelve apostles and was chosen by Jesus. He, nevertheless, turns from the Lord to go his own way. We know that to be true because in Acts 1:17-25 it says the following about Judas:
For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry*.
…
…
And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”**
There are many Catholic Commentaries and they don’t all agree on things like this. In this case the Commentary seems to be making a claim for which there is no evidence in terms of the usage of the word “friend.” I gave ample scriptural evidence for how the word is to be understood.Then you problem is with the Catholic commentary.
I have 18 English translations of the bible and I did a search to determine the use of the word companion versus friend in the Gospels. It turns out that many of them never translate the Greek as companion at all, but rather as friend. When they do translate using the word “companion” they universally refer to all of the twelve and not just Judas with that term as well. There is no biblical reason that I can find to believe that Jesus does not consider Judas a friend. Judas was a friend of Jesus, but he turned aside to go his own way and betrayed Jesus. We even know from our own life experience that friends, and even family members, sometimes betray one another. It is no different with Judas.The Greek indicates companion. John 13:18 insinuates Judas was not chosen for the same reasons the others were. Judas, to fulfill scripture. Namely Psalm 41:9.
cont. on next post
P
Pax
Guest
cont. from prior post
I also pointed out that* “…the New Testament is replete with warnings to “believers” that they fan fall/lose their salvation.”* You responded saying:
***“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” ***
Those warnings are from heaven and without them many would fall that would have otherwise been saved. Those warnings are part of God’s plan for the elect. Apparently many of those that are justified will not persevere without God sending these warnings and would otherwise not be part of the elect. This is every bit a form of God interceding on behalf of the elect in their battle with Satan and in their Christian walk as is the intercession of Jesus on the part of Peter to which you make reference. I would be careful about making speculations about Jesus not interceding on behalf of Judas particularly in light of his prayers for the twelve in John 17. In that chapter in verse 12 it says:
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Notice that Jesus guarded them and kept them in the Father’s name. That includes Judas. Nevertheless, Judas is referred to as the son of perdition(i.e. evil person), and is said to have been lost. It isn’t that God did not provide for Judas or give Judas sufficient grace. Instead, Judas “still” betrayed Jesus and that outcome was foreknown by God. God did not “make” Judas do what he did, and God provided what was needed for Judas, but he still fell. We do the same thing everytime we sin even though scripture tells us that
"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it"[1 Cor 10:13].
God provides what we need, but we sometimes still fall into sin. Judas made his choices and all of the responsibility for those choices rests with him. God saw every conceivable possibility and chose to let the actions of Judas be the instrument of betrayal to fulfill the scriptures. That is how the divine plan was implemented.
God bless.
Just because Peter and Paul were justified and were of the elect, does not automatically mean that others who were justified would also persevere unto the end and be members of the elect.Peter and Paul was not forever saved?
I am not making an appeal to authority to establish my points. I mentioned that the Catholic Church does not endorse OSAS, and that is a factual statement. I made that point because your initial posts were making the argument that the Catholic Church actually teaches OSAS. I have disagreed with your reasoning to support OSAS and I disagree with your contention that the Catholic Church teaches OSAS.Methinks you are making an appeal to authority. That is since anybody who does not see things the exact way you do is at odds with the Catholic Church.
Judas did not properly repent of the betrayal of Jesus whereas Peter did. If you read the accounts of both it is apparent that Peter had a godly grief as opposed to a worldly grief(as described by Paul in 2 Cor 7:10) that could be associated with Judas.Judas was an unrepentant thief before he betrayed Jesus. Peter was a coward when push came to shove.
I also pointed out that* “…the New Testament is replete with warnings to “believers” that they fan fall/lose their salvation.”* You responded saying:
I disagree with your assessment that those warnings are simply from our perspective. Please keep in mind that we are looking at the inspired word of God transmitted from the apostle Paul and others in giving these warnings. Moreover, Jesus tells the apostles in Luke 10:16 that:Agree. That is from our perspective. Not the perspective of God. Jesus interceded on behalf of Peter. Jesus did not intercede on behalf of Judas.
***“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” ***
Those warnings are from heaven and without them many would fall that would have otherwise been saved. Those warnings are part of God’s plan for the elect. Apparently many of those that are justified will not persevere without God sending these warnings and would otherwise not be part of the elect. This is every bit a form of God interceding on behalf of the elect in their battle with Satan and in their Christian walk as is the intercession of Jesus on the part of Peter to which you make reference. I would be careful about making speculations about Jesus not interceding on behalf of Judas particularly in light of his prayers for the twelve in John 17. In that chapter in verse 12 it says:
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Notice that Jesus guarded them and kept them in the Father’s name. That includes Judas. Nevertheless, Judas is referred to as the son of perdition(i.e. evil person), and is said to have been lost. It isn’t that God did not provide for Judas or give Judas sufficient grace. Instead, Judas “still” betrayed Jesus and that outcome was foreknown by God. God did not “make” Judas do what he did, and God provided what was needed for Judas, but he still fell. We do the same thing everytime we sin even though scripture tells us that
"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it"[1 Cor 10:13].
God provides what we need, but we sometimes still fall into sin. Judas made his choices and all of the responsibility for those choices rests with him. God saw every conceivable possibility and chose to let the actions of Judas be the instrument of betrayal to fulfill the scriptures. That is how the divine plan was implemented.
God bless.
L
lightbeamrider
Guest
If we persevere until the end then in effect we save ourselves. Probationary salvation reduces the death and resurrection of Christ to a mere opportunity for salvation. What actually effects salvation is our efforts to the end.cont. from prior post
Just because Peter and Paul were justified and were of the elect, does not automatically mean that others who were justified would also persevere unto the end and be members of the elect.
My initial post (p.4. #51) did not read the Catholic Church actually teaches OSAS. I referenced Catholic sources. Namely Catholic Study Bible. Its a huge division within non Catholics and many who hold to OSAS do quote Catholic sources including Augustine. I read somewhere Catholics are not supposed to argue on this. Maybe here.I am not making an appeal to authority to establish my points. I mentioned that the Catholic Church does not endorse OSAS, and that is a factual statement. I made that point because your initial posts were making the argument that the Catholic Church actually teaches OSAS. I have disagreed with your reasoning to support OSAS and I disagree with your contention that the Catholic Church teaches OSAS.
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