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Sir_Knight
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Chances are after since John was an old man when it was written and he was the youngest of the Apostles. Thus, it is MOSTLIKELY that Mary was no longer living on this earth.
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Nella
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If you were correct here, then what would be the purpose for anyone posessing a Bible?? This is where so many Protestants are right about Catholics not reading their Bibles. Why would they if they cannot read and interpret what is being read?? 1 Timothy disproves the whole Magisterium quirk because scripture says to study the word of God so that you will know the truth. It doesn’t say leave it up to a select group of high church officials to know it and pass it down. This is baloney and one big reason why I left the RCC.
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Southsider433
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Mary was not just a “mere” woman.Chosen she was yes.This "mere"woman was born without sin.This is crucial in understanding what she was to hold in her womb,namely God. How could a sinful woman hold God in her womb? She delivered our salvation, held our salvation in her body.She is the new Eve,just as Jesus is the new Adam. She does not save, this is Christian fact. But she is the “ark” the one who holds the new covenant Jesus. How can you then regulate her to give to a man what she gave to God, namely her body. She remained celibate to follow Jesus as His first disciple, she gave herself totally to Him. ****But remember no Catholic believes she is the Savior, take that into consideration when answering Catholics about Mary.
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Sabda
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You apparently don’t realize that there is an indulgence attached to reading the Bible? It never said that we could not read and the Church does not say that we can not read. What it means is that we should check the Church to see what the Church says and not go around trying to figure it out by ourselves. The reason for this is because you will other wise end up with a whole bunch of different interpretations of the Bible. Which is exactly what we have today. You have people saying you do not have the Holy Spirit unless you speak in tongues. You have people denying the Trinity. You have people who Baptize in the name of Jesus only. You have people who believe that the Eucharist is nothing more than symbolic. If you interpret the Bible without guidance you wind up way out in left field. Jesus left us a Church to help guide us for this very reason. So that we don’t end up way out in left field.
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Melchior
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I think the children of Joseph is the most likely explanation. I think the “relative” or “cousin” argument is extremely weak.Why was Lot so frequently referred to as Abraham’s ‘brother’ even when it is abundantly clear that he is actually Abraham’s nephew? Same with Laban being referred to as Jacob’s ‘brother’?
Why are ALL of the hundred and twenty odd people in the Upper Room at Pentecost called Jesus’ ‘brothers’?? Surely THEY weren’t His siblings too! (We’d have to invent a new title for Mary for that one!)
None of those cases uses any word for ‘cousin’, ‘friend’ ‘relative’ or anything other than ‘BROTHER’. Clearly it has a broader meaning in the original language.
It makes a bit more sense if you realise that the people of Nazareth didn’t believe in the Virgin Birth - they thought Jesus was Joseph’s son (‘is this not the carpenter’s son?’). In that context OF COURSE any children of Joseph from a previous marriage, for example, would be thought to be His half-siblings and referred to as such.
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YADA
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Actually it does…we are told to “hold fast to the traditions that have been handed on by word and ***letter.” ***
Jesus said we are told to follow the instructions of our religious leaders even if they are not practicing what they preach.
Scripture identifies The Church is the “Pillar and foundation of truth” that is what scripture tells us. Scripture does not say that the Bible is the pillar of truth nor does scripture call itself the foundation.
Your appeal to scripture alone [though I don’t recommend it] will still place you in the Church, with the Church’s book, receiveing the true Eucharist -
once you let your ego go
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Nella
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We do not believe that we can only have the Holy Spirit if we speak in tongues. We absolutely believe in the Trinity. We believe that the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. We however do not believe in the authority of Rome and we are Protestant by your definition, so your whole theory doesn’t hold water.
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Nella
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You just pointed it our right there. What tells you that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth? SCRIPTURE tells you! You just said it and I rest my case.
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Sabda
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My theory DOES hold water. I personally KNOW Christians who believe some of those things. There was also a news article a few months ago about one of the Episcopalian churches having a vote on whether or not the names of the Trinity should be changed. They were voting on changing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to something else. I don’t remember what the choices were but I do recall one of them reminded me of rock, paper, scissors.
These people show you from the Bible were they get these beliefs from!
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Nella
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Your arrogant insults are not appreciated at least by me. This is proof positive that catholics can say whatever they want about others and it is construed as knowledge but it is always slanderous if it goes the other way. I guess this is your forum so you can do whatever you wish fair or not.My theory DOES hold water. I personally KNOW Christians who believe some of those things. There was also a news article a few months ago about one of the Episcopalian churches having a vote on whether or not the names of the Trinity should be changed. They were voting on changing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to something else. I don’t remember what the choices were but I do recall one of them reminded me of rock, paper, scissors.
These people show you from the Bible were they get these beliefs from!
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LilyM
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We can’t be certain, but John certainly lived a long time and wrote Revelation quite late, so highly likely it was after her death (if indeed she died) and after the Assumption, especially as there are some hints of it in Revelation.
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LilyM
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No, scripture tells YOU - if you rely solely upon it. People of good sense don’t rely solely upon it to tell us about our faith.
People of good sense know by using our God-given brains that a mere book (and a sketchy and fairly short one at that) can’t possibly be a higher authority on Christ’s teaching than His living, breathing, Holy-Spirit guided church, rather that the two go hand in hand.
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Sabda
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I am not trying to be arrogant. I’m sorry you took it that way. I’m simply pointing out the facts. That is the way Christianity is today. Whether you like it or not. I certainly don’t like it but that is the way it is. Why do you think people are losing their faith in such numbers, especially here in America? I heard one recent report on the radio that said that in a another year America would no longer be considered a Protestant nation. They did not go on to say what would be the main faith in America so I don’t know the answer to that question.
For the record this is NOT my forum. This is everyone’s forum, including yours. We are all guest here and we can all just as easily be kicked off. I see lots of Catholics get banned all the time.
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Sir_Knight
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Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task “to preach the Gospel of God to all men,” in keeping with the Lord’s command. They are “heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers” of the apostolic faith “endowed with the authority of Christ.”
In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, “unfailingly adheres to this faith.”
The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
“The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.” This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
*** Continued in NEXT Post ***
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Sir_Knight
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*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post ***
Here are the scriptures which explicitly or implicitly speak of infallibility in the Church founded by Jesus Christ which has been known since the first century as the Catholic Church:
Here are the scriptures which explicitly or implicitly speak of infallibility in the Church founded by Jesus Christ which has been known since the first century as the Catholic Church:
- Matthew 28:18-19 = *Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’
- Luke 10:16 = He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
- John 14:16-17 = If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
- John 14:26 = But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
- John 16:13 = But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
- John 20:21 = Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’
- 1 Thessalonians 2:13 = And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
- 1 John 4:6 = We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
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LilyM
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LilyM
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No, scripture tells YOU - if you rely solely upon it. People of good sense don’t rely solely upon it to tell us about our faith.
People of good sense know by using our God-given brains that a book, no matter how God-breathed, can’t possibly be a higher authority on Christ’s teaching than His living, breathing, Holy-Spirit guided church, rather that the two go hand in hand.
People of good sense know by using our God-given brains that a book, no matter how God-breathed, can’t possibly be a higher authority on Christ’s teaching than His living, breathing, Holy-Spirit guided church, rather that the two go hand in hand.
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Sir_Knight
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Why not? When the bible tells us to OBEY our spiritual leaders because they have authority over us?
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rbarcia
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The woman in Revelation 11-12 is Israel, not Mary. The Sun, Moon, and Stars clearly matches the dream Joseph, son of Jacob had and told his brothers.
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Sir_Knight
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You rest your case that scripture tells you that the church is the fountain of truth? Then you should follow the teachings of the church and not rely on your own understanding of scripture which COULD be flawed. Using the bible as their point of reference, Protestants disagree with each other on …
- Infant or Adult baptism?
- Calvinist Predestination or Arminian Free Will?
- Once Saved Always Saved?
- Can You Lose Your Salvation?
- Is there Assurance of Salvation?
- Divorce
- Abortion
- Is prophecy still given?
- Are there still Miracles?
- Are miracles guaranteed if you have enough faith?
- Will there be a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christians?
- Premillenialism or Postmillenialism?
- Will there even be a millennium?
- Speaking in Tongues - is it valid or not?
- Baptism in the Holy Spirit - is it real or a deception?
- Are demons real?
- Is Jesus physically present in Communion?
- Are the Sacraments necessary to salvation?
- What form of Authority should exist in the Church?
- Need a Church have Bishops?
- Can Women be Pastors?
- Can homosexuals be admitted to Church?
- Does God promise Christians material prosperity?
- Should all Images be banned in Worship?
- How do you become a Christian?
… just to name a few.
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