Doesn't your relationship with God matter more than your denomination?

[josh987654321]

Eucharistic Miracle of Italy, Lanciano, 750 A.D.

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-miracle-of-lanciano.html
michaeljournal.org/eucharist3.htm
infallible-catholic.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/eucharistic-miracle-of-lanciano-italy.html

‘My belief in miracles cannot be considered a mystical belief: it is founded on human evidence, as is my belief in the discovery of America. It is, indeed, a simple logical fact that hardly needs to be recognized or interpreted. The extraordinary idea going around is that those who deny the miracle know how to consider the facts coolly and directly, while those who accept the miracle always relate the facts with the dogma previously accepted. In fact, the opposite is the case: the believers accept the miracle (with or without reason) because the evidence compels them to do so. The unbelievers deny it (with or without reason) because the doctrine they profess tells them to do so.’

• G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

Sacred Heart of Jesus - (St Margaret-Mary Alacoque)

http://s15.postimg.org/uc0cy5a0r/st_margaretmary2.jpg

Jesus to St Margaret-Mary Alacoque -

"Behold the Heart which has so loved men that it has spared nothing, even to exhausting (Crucifixion) and consuming Itself (Last Supper, Eucharist), in order to testify Its love; and in return, I receive from the greater part only ingratitude, by their irreverence and sacrilege, and by the coldness and contempt they have for Me in this Sacrament of Love. But what I feel most keenly is that it is hearts which are consecrated to Me, that treat Me thus. Therefore, I ask of you that the Friday after the Octave of Corpus Christi be set apart for a special Feast to honor My Heart, by communicating on that day, and making reparation to It by a solemn act, in order to make amends for the indignities which It has received during the time It has been exposed on the altars. I promise you that My Heart shall expand Itself to shed in abundance the influence of Its Divine Love upon those who shall thus honor It, and cause It to be honored."

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[exnihilo]

i am catholic but i feel more engaged by protestant worship and preaching and appreciate the close fellowship offered by some protestant communities. i feel that my relationship with God would become deeper and my discipleship would become more intentional by joining a protestant church. please enlighten as to why this is a sin if my overall relationship with the Lord is improved.

thank you

You seem to be leaving out a key aspect of any relationship which is faithfulness. Faithfulness isn’t tested when things are easy. It is tested when things are most difficult. If you feel something is lacking in your spiritual life as a Catholic then by all means make some changes, but don’t abandon the Church. You certainly won’t make your relationship with Jesus better by leaving his Church.

You are right that some Protestant communities have better fellowship and preaching. But that is just as true for different Catholic communities. What matters is that even when a Catholic community doesn’t excel in those areas it still has the Eucharist. Even when a Catholic community doesn’t have those things it is still the Church founded by Jesus. If those things are lacking pray and do what you can to help improve things.

 

[rcwitness]

You are right that some Protestant communities have better fellowship and preaching. But that is just as true for different Catholic communities. What matters is that even when a Catholic community doesn’t excel in those areas it still has the Eucharist. Even when a Catholic community doesn’t have those things it is still the Church founded by Jesus. If those things are lacking pray and do what you can to help improve things.

Yes! Unfortunately, it’s not always the “good preaching” that pulls some away from devotion to His Eucharist, but a storm of challenges to some Teachings and beliefs of the Church, which shake the foundation of their house. There are false impressions of what we believe, and it exists in our members. Then, when someone who is well trained in attacking these false impressions mixes a lot of good foundational belief into it, it all sounds good.

And the big lure is to say, “let’s just stick to only what the Bible clearly Teaches!” From there, you get a mixed bag. But hey, even Catholics must rely on the Spirit to discern what is orthodox Catholic Teaching from heterodox opinions… even from some clergy.

 

[rcwitness]

My hope and prayer is that those who have left the full communion with the Church may find that they miss all that Jesus has given there - all that he wills for them there and come back to that full communion. Bringing their personal gifts to the benefit of the Church and for the work of spreading the Gospel.

Yes, but not many people will miss the fact that they need to struggle and maybe even suffer against bad behavior, or heterodox teaching in their parish.

 

[Reuben_J]

You seem to be leaving out a key aspect of any relationship which is faithfulness. Faithfulness isn’t tested when things are easy. It is tested when things are most difficult. If you feel something is lacking in your spiritual life as a Catholic then by all means make some changes, but don’t abandon the Church. You certainly won’t make your relationship with Jesus better by leaving his Church.

You are right that some Protestant communities have better fellowship and preaching. But that is just as true for different Catholic communities. What matters is that even when a Catholic community doesn’t excel in those areas it still has the Eucharist. Even when a Catholic community doesn’t have those things it is still the Church founded by Jesus. If those things are lacking pray and do what you can to help improve things.

I think this can’t ever be emphasized enough; back to the basic.

Relationship is NOT measured in feeling, because that changes, more so for us fickle humans, but in faithfulness. Great saints of the Church did experience dryness, being distanced from God, but what did they do? They persevered on despite the dark night of the soul.

Jesus also experienced the pain of being distanced from the Father during his passion, but continued on his mission.

We have been warned that following the Lord is not easy, and that included the time of dryness as well; and when that comes because it inevitably will, we are called to be faithful.

 

[rcwitness]

Cool… but somehow that attributed your quote to me. It wasnt.

 

[Rosebud77]

You seem to be leaving out a key aspect of any relationship which is **faithfulness. **Faithfulness isn’t tested when things are easy. It is tested when things are most difficult. If you feel something is lacking in your spiritual life as a Catholic then by all means make some changes, but don’t abandon the Church. You certainly won’t make your relationship with Jesus better by leaving his Church.

You are right that some Protestant communities have better fellowship and preaching. But that is just as true for different Catholic communities. What matters is that even when a Catholic community doesn’t excel in those areas it still has the Eucharist. Even when a Catholic community doesn’t have those things it is still the Church founded by Jesus. If those things are lacking pray and do what you can to help improve things.

Surely faithfulness is to Jesus alone?

 

[Bookcat]

Surely faithfulness is to Jesus alone?

Being faithful to the Church is* part* of being faithful to Jesus …

One may not separate the head from the body. One is yes to be faithful to the Church that Jesus founded and gave authority to (he who hears you hears me)…

 

[HelenRose]

Surely faithfulness is to Jesus alone?

To be faithful to Jesus is to obey His commandments and to belong to His One True Church.

To shop around looking for a church that matches one’s own ideas of what a church should teach while ignoring the fact that Jesus founded only one Church and gave Peter the keys, is not being faithful to Jesus.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Peter J
I’m sorry, but the distinction between ex-Catholics and never-been-Catholics is a real distinction

I don’t think your position and mine are terribly far apart. But anyhow … I would mention, first, this sentence from Unitatis Redintegratio,
“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.”

and second, if I might share something from my own life, I have had a lot of conversations over the years with Eastern Orthodox. On a number of those occasions I made a point of stressing that I’m not an ex-Orthodox (I’m a “cradle Catholic” btw), and for me one of the worst things was when, on occasion, some Orthodox person or other would simply assume that I would have left Orthodoxy if I had been Orthodox.

 

[Contarini]

i am catholic but i feel more engaged by protestant worship and preaching and appreciate the close fellowship offered by some protestant communities. i feel that my relationship with God would become deeper and my discipleship would become more intentional by joining a protestant church. please enlighten as to why this is a sin if my overall relationship with the Lord is improved.

thank you

Formally “joining” such a church, and thus ceasing to be a member of the Catholic Church, would be lending your support to an organized church structure standing over against the historic Church and thus abetting division within the Body of Christ.

I do not believe (though I know many here will strongly disagree with me) that participating in an evangelical church is incompatible with Catholic faith (though of course it depends on the specific church–some churches are very anti-Catholic, for instance).

I very much feel what you are saying, because I am involved both in my wife’s Episcopal church (actually she’s now connected to two churches–the one where we live and the one some distance away that she serves twice a month as an Episcopal priest) and even more in my parents’ Methodist church. I moved to Kentucky two years ago intending to become Catholic, and this Methodist church was one of the reasons I hesitated as long as I have. I have every intention of continuing to participate in that church as much as I can, and I’ll probably do so in ways that people on this forum would not approve of . But in the end I couldn’t turn away from my long journey toward Catholicism, because I am convinced that all Christians need to be in communion with Rome and that the fullness of the faith is only possible in that communion. For me, having received the light I have on this point, to refuse to become Catholic would (as Vatican II says) put my soul in danger.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I don’t think your position and mine are terribly far apart. But anyhow … I would mention, first, this sentence from Unitatis Redintegratio,
“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.”

and second, if I might share something from my own life, I have had a lot of conversations over the years with Eastern Orthodox. On a number of those occasions I made a point of stressing that I’m not an ex-Orthodox (I’m a “cradle Catholic” btw), and for me one of the worst things was when, on occasion, some Orthodox person or other would simply assume that I would have left Orthodoxy if I had been Orthodox.

I have said for many years now that I wouldn’t leave Catholicism or Orthodoxy if I were already Catholic or Orthodox. And I still feel that way about Orthodoxy. Indeed, if I were already United Methodist or belonged to some other Wesleyan church I might not leave, or if I were in the C of E. But I don’t think I can remain Episcopalian, and I can’t in good conscience join some other church in preference to Catholicism. So I’m stuck becoming Catholic at long last. Some days I’m jubilant about that, and some days I’m depressed.

Edwin

 

[Peter_J]

Formally “joining” such a church, and thus ceasing to be a member of the Catholic Church, would be lending your support to an organized church structure standing over against the historic Church and thus abetting division within the Body of Christ.

I do not believe (though I know many here will strongly disagree with me) that participating in an evangelical church is incompatible with Catholic faith (though of course it depends on the specific church–some churches are very anti-Catholic, for instance).

I very much feel what you are saying, because I am involved both in my wife’s Episcopal church (actually she’s now connected to two churches–the one where we live and the one some distance away that she serves twice a month as an Episcopal priest) and even more in my parents’ Methodist church. I moved to Kentucky two years ago intending to become Catholic, and this Methodist church was one of the reasons I hesitated as long as I have. I have every intention of continuing to participate in that church as much as I can, and I’ll probably do so in ways that people on this forum would not approve of . But in the end I couldn’t turn away from my long journey toward Catholicism, because I am convinced that all Christians need to be in communion with Rome and that the fullness of the faith is only possible in that communion. For me, having received the light I have on this point, to refuse to become Catholic would (as Vatican II says) put my soul in danger.

Edwin

Do you mean

“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

?

 

[Contarini]

Surely faithfulness is to Jesus alone?

Jesus is not alone.

That’s a key part of the Christian Faith.

We have a personal relationship with Jesus, but not an individual one. Pope Benedict has written very well about the difference (long before he became Pope) in his Introduction to Christianity. Persons exist in relationship. God Himself is personal because He exists in a three-personed eternal relationship.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Do you mean

“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

?

Yes.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

P.S. And hopefully Protestants do the same vis-a-vis ex-Protestants who are Catholic.

Yes. I had to write to the Baptist pastor who baptized me and ask him for a baptismal certificate, and of course I had to explain why. He responded that he was “shocked” but trusted that I was trying to follow the Lord. I appreciated that response.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I definitely agree that there are bad apples in every group. However I thought I understood that it was a part of official teaching that it was a mortal sin for a Catholic to not go to Mass and to take part in sacraments at other churches. I am glad to know that this isn’t the teaching anymore.

It is certainly still Catholic teaching that it is a grave sin not to go to Mass. “Grave” is the technical term for the objective nature of the act. For the act to be a “mortal sin”–to cut the person off from God–it would need to be deliberately willed with full knowledge that it was wrong. That’s Peter J’s point, I think. No one can actually know for sure that another person, objectively committing a grave sin, is subjectively guilty of mortal sin.

Canon law forbids Catholics to receive the Eucharist in churches that lack apostolic succession, and in most circumstances in any non-Catholic church. Some exceptions are possible for churches (like the Orthodox) that have apostolic succession.

Whether and where the Church teaches that it’s always a grave sin to disobey canon law I’m not sure. Certainly one should obey Church authorities unless they command something against conscience.

I do agree that certain Protestants would say that it is wrong to become Catholic. However most Protestant groups do not officially teach that salvation is dependent on the church you belong to or how you receive sacraments, but based on your relationship with God through Christ. Is this the same as Catholic Church teaching?

No, because in Church teaching you can never separate your relationship with Christ from your relationship with the Church and the sacraments.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

To state that a symbolic Protestant practice of Communion is an “after thought” and therefore meaningless is a non-helpful generalization that if not coming from malice is a very ignorant viewpoint.

1. Not all Protestants see the Eucharist as merely symbolic. There is a wide range of opinion among Protestants on the subject. That of course strengthens your point.
2. In many modern Protestant churches the Eucharist does sometimes seem like an afterthought. That is by no means always the case. Infrequency of communion, in itself, doesn’t mean a lack of emphasis on the Eucharist. In traditional Scottish Presbyterianism, for instance, and also in the Anabaptist tradition, communion was historically quite rare (once or twice a year) but extremely solemn and taken very seriously. The “afterhought” element, ironically, tends to increase the more often it’s celebrated (one reason many Protestants don’t want to celebrate it more often), because it is then sometimes shoehorned in at the end of a service focused on preaching. But I would say that on the whole, most Protestant churches I’ve been to take communion very seriously. Which is to say, in a long-winded way, that I agree with you.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I have a hard time seeing how it would be sinful if in fact the CC truly now sees the non-Catholic Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Because the unity of the Church is essential, and unity is not just a diffuse “let’s all get together” but is a covenantal relationship grounded in Jesus’ covenant with St. Peter.
This is the pattern throughout salvation history: God makes a covenant with a specific individual and forms a community by so doing.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

but since we live in a fallen world unity is not a reality. it would be great if we could all be one, and since the Lord prayed for it it must be heavily on His heart, but we aren’t. I believe we’ll get there someday, but we just aren’t.

That sort of passivity about so central an aspect of the Christian faith is not enough for me. I’ve tried to make myself be content with it for years, and failed.

Edwin