Dog Meat

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Oh I’m not defending the meat industry. All forms of cruelty to animals is disgusting. I personally have eaten farm raised and humanely slaughtered beef most of my life.

I have seen the treatment of dolphins and dogs in several videos online. It’s disgusting, and it should be regulated to avoid cruely, I agree. However, the eating of the animals in and of itself is not wrong.
Actually, there are NO ***humane ***slaughterhouses. Organically raised animals in the USA, though have a better life than their CAFO counterparts (actually experience the light of day and grass under their feet for a percentage of their day), go to the SAME SLAUGHTERHOUSE that the CAFO animals do, and experience the same treatment there.

Here is some interesting information from a former beef farmer and educator, Harold Brown: tiny.cc/sO4I7

…there is no such thing as humane animal products, humane farming practices, humane transport, or humane slaughter. Harold Brown
 
Yes, because it is not a sin to eat meat. What would be the preferable way to kill an animal before processing?

Let us not rush to judgement. Many are here posting in the freedom of their American home yet would not be capable of killing in order to preserve that freedom. I have no problem with a man or woman eating a cheeseburger, yet not being of the constitution that could take a hammer to a cow. Ranchers understand that they do for all what all can not do. It is part of the life.

I do a job that many have told me they could never do. I do not resent in the least that others benefit who could not perform it. That is fine. I believe the burden of evidence falls on the one who says eating meat is sinful, or one method of butchering is sinful, to show why.

For me, I only eat dolphin-free dog.
So if you eat meat that was inhumanely treated (dog, cat, dolphin, cow, pig, chicken, etc.)you are not guilty of anything??? We, as stewards of God’s creation, can eat whatever we want as long as we didn’t commit the abuse with our own hand ??? Do we not perpetuate the abuse by continuing to buy these “products” without conscience?

Did you view the video, by the way?

"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10

Are we not “wicked” by allowing this cruelty in our modern society to continue???
 
Are you familiar with factory farming?? Old MacDonald sold his farm to the industrial revolution and we now have CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations), Animals aren’t treated very well, and most of them ***never ***see the light of day, or feel grass under their feet.

Should there be a standard for how** all **animals are treated, regardless of their species, their purpose (as determined by humans), or the culture in which they are found?

Is it OK to torture dogs in China, Korea, Vietnam, etc., and in Western society treat them as man’s best friend?
I think you are confusing the morality of eating meat of all animals with the cruelty people do to animals.

The answer to this has been answered already. It is moral to eat animals. It is immoral to be cruel to animals.

If your claim is that we should not eat any meat because man is fallen and prone to cruelty of animals. That is a valid contention. However, since I do not know if all animal farming/slaughtering practices are immortal, I can at minimum give the benefit of the doubt that there are morals methods. In my culture ages ago, we hunted wild boar and there are were a great deal of pain with the crude instruments we had in the rural regions. However, the intention was never to inflict harm for pleasure nor to intentionally harm the creature. The intention was to slay the creature for food. Because of this, it was not immoral.

Does that clear up things for you a bit?

In relation to the comment about me watching and taking action against animal cruelty.

I mention I cannot watch horror but I can take action. Did I claim I refuse to take action that you attacked me? No I did not, so you do not need to worry about that. As for watching horror, since you wanted to attack that as well. I have been told by my psychologist that I need to avoid seeing such things because it is mentally unhealthy for me. I have tried to participate before due to the urgings of others, but it is unwise and cruel to my body and mind. Please consider that not all people can tolerate viewing the same level of violence as you can.
 
so even dogs should be forced to become vegan??

against their very nature… just like humans…

hmmmm… :hmmm:
 
I think you are confusing the morality of eating meat of all animals with the cruelty people do to animals.

The answer to this has been answered already. It is moral to eat animals. It is immoral to be cruel to animals.

***So you can eat them but not be cruel to them, and if they are treated cruelly before you get the dead meat–it is OK for you the eater, but not OK for the abuser??? ***

I mention I cannot watch horror but I can take action. Did I claim I refuse to take action that you attacked me?

I am sorry if you took anything that I said as an attack. It was not intended as such. For most people, viewing how these dogs are treated is understandably horrifying. And if we are horrified at these sights, is that not a significant reaction that should alert us to a need to do something to change the situation?
 
So if you eat meat that was inhumanely treated (dog, cat, dolphin, cow, pig, chicken, etc.)you are not guilty of anything??? We, as stewards of God’s creation, can eat whatever we want as long as we didn’t commit the abuse with our own hand ??? Do we not perpetuate the abuse by continuing to buy these “products” without conscience?

Did you view the video, by the way?

"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10

Are we not “wicked” by allowing this cruelty in our modern society to continue???
If we eat meat that we know are inhumanly farmed then we may be guilty by association but not guilty of the act. If we do not know if the meat is cruelly process nor have suspicious of such, we are not required to refrain from it. However, wise prudence would dictate that we know what we eat. We are each responsible for our own actions.

In particular the video of how a dolphin was cruelly mutilated may not be the same way the other poster had dolphin meat or whale, if she had some at all.

Next to my home back in Vietnam was a Boa shop. It specializes in hunting boa (30-40 ft long) from the nearby jungle and returning it to camp. It would take a group of 6-8 men to carry the snake back on ropes hung to a very long log. The snake is caught alive and restrained there. They would return with their catch to the village in the mornings. They hunt either very early or at night. They proceed to slay the snake and cook it immediately using a high pressure high temperature hose. The heat would instantly take out the snake and the pressure would remove much of the jungle leaves, dirt, and bugs from the surface of the snake. Then they would slice up the creature into large 4-5 in thick steaks and immediately cook, sear, or fry them as needed for food this day. All in all, the only modern technology used were the pots, stove, and the hose. The hunting was relatively primitive. Was this cruel to you?

While there are cruel methods out there, there are methods that are not intended to be cruel. At times you can only do so much.
 
I am sorry if you took anything that I said as an attack. It was not intended as such. For most people, viewing how these dogs are treated is understandably horrifying. And if we are horrified at these sights, is that not a significant reaction that should alert us to a need do do something to change the situation?
Yes in general, acts of horror do incite an emotional response. This emotional response should encourage us to use our reasoning to examine the issue. However, emotions are raw materials meant to be shaped and directed by the totality of our senses and mind given by God.

In this case, the emotional reaction of horror may or may not be sufficient to take action. First we must examine the morally of the situation. Then we must examine the context of the situation. Then we must examine our own actions and intention given similar situations. Since in my past I have eaten many animal types in situations that I deem have no intention of cruelty by myself nor those I can influence by money or in person, I do not worry about the morality of the situation. I lack personally verifiable data that such cruelty occurred with or without my knowledge, so I am safe there as well. Then I examine the morality of my action, namely eating the portions of meat. Since this is morally permissible as well, I am okay there. In addition, at this point in time, I eat mostly tofu as my source of protein for health reasons. As for meat, the two most common source would be pork and fish due to health reasons as well. The fish I buy have no indication of cruety or not regulated farm raise. So I am okay there. The meat I buy claims to be done without hormones. And since I do not know the company in detail I have given them a benefit of the doubt. We are all responsible for our own actions.

It is great that you are bringing up this topic to alert others of animal cruelty. This is different then using emotions as dictates for moral actions. All of the human capacity much be summoned to determine what is proper and fitting for one to do. As a counter example, sex can feel so good and at many times it can feel so right. But that does not in and of itself make it good or right. The moral objective truth exists beyond both our emotions and are limited reasoning. I would also add hope that you are as adamant about protecting unborn humans as well – if not in action then at minimum in heart.

To explain the issue of horror for me as an individual, I am not troubled by scenes of blood nor scenes of rend flesh. As this may be the usual reason others are horrified. This is because being from Vietnam, I am the children of a very cruel war were men are treated at times as flesh to be rendered. I have seen images of mass graves for families who dissent the authority of the VC north. There are verifiable scene people walking hundreds of miles with tattered sandals and bleeding to carry rice form the North to the South out of the emotion called patriotism. These people were treated worst then I would treat an oxen plowing my fields. So I am used to suffering, pain, and the destruction of flesh.

What I cannot view about depictions of horror is the intention of either the producers of the works or the intentions of those perpetrating the works. Intention is the dangerous part because my mind will take it in and then I would have great difficulty fighting these cruel urges myself.
 
CCC 2418** It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly…**

Can we really ***look the other way ***while industrialized animal abuse brings us meat/dairy/eggs, and wash our hands of the suffering these animals experienced ***before ***finding their way to our table?

If animals are abused in another culture, shall we ignore it, and chalk it up as cultural difference?? Should there be some standards for ALL animals?

Just so you know, the dogs in this video are tortured specifically because the Chinese believe that in eating the meat from a tortured animal, a man (who eats the meat) will gain enhanced sexual prowess (from ingesting that meat).
 
I lack personally verifiable data that such cruelty occurred with or without my knowledge, so I am safe there as well…
I don’t know where you currently reside, but in the USA I think people purposefully DO NOT WANT to know the details of how their meat is raised, because if they knew the details, then they would be called to action, or boycott of those products produced inhumanely. And how inconvenient is that–to stop purchasing foods that make your life easy? I think that** 4elise **posted a stat that 95% of meat/dairy/eggs are raised on CAFO’s. My stats are closer to 99%. I believe that only 1% of meat/dairy/eggs are organically raised here–but maybe my stats are outdated as more and more people are turning away from factory farmed foods. Anybody have some current stats???

StillWondering: I am truly sorry for the distress of your life experience and wish that you had not had seen such horror. I am a lover of peace, and kindness, and mercy to all living creatures. I understand why you could not view the video. I had to look away myself. And I can never watch another Holocaust movie–I just can’t. I still can not believe how cruel men can be to each other.
 
Is eating the same as torturing and killing? As Catholics we are told that causing an animal to suffer is wrong. Can you eat anything and wash your hands of the deeds done previously to the animal, because it was not done by your own hand?
Yes, because it is not a sin to eat meat. What would be the preferable way to kill an animal before processing?
So we can eat meat–but we can’t be cruel to it or have it suffer while it is alive. A perplexing situation, is it not?
 
So we can eat meat–but we can’t be cruel to it or have it suffer while it is alive. A perplexing situation, is it not?
Well, to clarify there is the slaughter and there is the cruelty. The morality of the issue comes into question with intention. You cannot sin, if I understand Father Serpa’s posts correctly, unless there is intention to take such action.

One of my family cats from my youth got killed and eaten by a neighbor, or so I am told. Well, I can imagine in circumstances where this person is not fully culpable for his actions, namely destroying my property, slaughtering an animal in possibly a painful fashion, and not protecting his own health due to killing a random creature which may or may not be clean. The neighbor may be hungry, does not know any better, and slayed the cat quickly. It is a tragic lost for us but if this is the case, he may have civil responsibilities, but some of the moral issues may not apply.

Taking the creature’s life is a moral action if there is intent. Assuming intent, the issue of whether it is immoral or not depends on what kind of intent is it and what actions were taken to carry out the intent.

Contrasting examples. When we mow our lawns with the intend of stewarding the property and keeping it well kept. There is not sin. One might say that the grass feels no pain so there is no sin anywhere. Well that is not entirely true. If one was told by their parents they cannot mow the lawn for just reasons and they do so anyways. They have sin in disrespect. If they believed that the lawn has feelings and can get hurt and hope to deliberate hurt the lawn. They have sin by willingness to harm even though the lawn has no sense of pain.

So the examples of how people would hunt the wild boar or the jungle boa speaks about the intention of providing food and no intention of causing pain and suffering to the animals. They are not committing an immoral act because of the fact that the act itself is not disordered as far as I know and their intentions are not disordered. What they could be culpable for is if they had means to else the pain of the creatures even more so within reason but choose not to for the sake of profit or effort. Then they would have culpability for their actions in terms of not doing more as stewards. Now in these cases, I cannot speak about that, but if they took proper means and have no cruel intentions, these slaughtering is perfectly acceptable due to the lack of disordered acts.

These examples can be a bit foreign but these are what I’m familiar with. So I cannot agree that all slaughtering of animals is cruel. In the US maybe, I do not know. I cannot obstruct learning or being exposed to knowing as an effect to avoid culpability. Yet, honestly I just do not know even if I have an idea or have some limited knowledge.
 
So if you eat meat that was inhumanely treated (dog, cat, dolphin, cow, pig, chicken, etc.)you are not guilty of anything??? We, as stewards of God’s creation, can eat whatever we want as long as we didn’t commit the abuse with our own hand ??? Do we not perpetuate the abuse by continuing to buy these “products” without conscience?

Did you view the video, by the way?

"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10

Are we not “wicked” by allowing this cruelty in our modern society to continue???
Yes, I viewed it. No, we are not guilty for the sins of others. Cooperation in evil can be remote, but if remote enough, there is no sin. Also, what constitutes cruelty is questionable. Slaughtering an animal to butcher it is not cruelty. I think you are right that there is no humane way to slaughter an animal, considering the normal meaning of the word “humane”. Cruelty would be senseless killing, other than for food or clothing. Cruelty would also be that which stops does not kill but deliberately inflicts needless pain on an animal.
 
CCC 2418** It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly…**

Can we really ***look the other way ***while industrialized animal abuse brings us meat/dairy/eggs, and wash our hands of the suffering these animals experienced ***before ***finding their way to our table?
The key word is “needlessly.” Since people have a need to eat, then killing for food is not needless. BTW, I must of missed the part of the video where “torture” took place. Would it not have been more cruel to boil them alive?
 
The key word is “needlessly.” Since people have a need to eat, then killing for food is not needless.
This is what he has been waiting for you to say. That we NEED meat. See he doesn’t believe that, he is a vegan. No meat, no meat by products.
 
There are 2 completely different questions being raised in this thread.

The first is about what is lawful/moral for man to eat. After St. Peter’s vision on the roof of the sheet with animals in it being lowered from heaven, he understood that all animals are lawful for us to eat. Not just certain types (ie kosher animals), but all. That is still true today.

Now each person/culture has different ideas about which animals taste good and are heathlful for eating. And religions other than Christianity still have prohibitions on eating certain animals (cows, pigs, etc.), but for a Christian, any animal is lawful. Whether we choose to eat dogs, pigs, or oysters is totally up to each persons taste.

The second question has to do with whether people should eat animals at all considering that most animals suffer in today’s factory farming processes. That is a legitimate question. Some of us will be called not to. Those of us with access to humanely slaughtered animals, and the means to purchase this kind of meat, should consider doing that. Others will be called to focus their energy on other issues. There are many things wrong in our falled world and not everyone can tackle every issue. The church does not say that it is morally probihibited for Catholics to eat factory raised meat, therefore we are all to use our own judgement on this issue.

Having lived in Southeast Asian, I cannot say for sure that I have never eaten dog meat. However, I do believe the likelyhood to be small.
 
Well, to clarify there is the slaughter and there is the cruelty. The morality of the issue comes into question with intention. You cannot sin, if I understand Father Serpa’s posts correctly, unless there is intention to take such action.
One of my family cats from my youth got killed and eaten by a neighbor, or so I am told. Well, I can imagine in circumstances where this person is not fully culpable for his actions, namely destroying my property, slaughtering an animal in possibly a painful fashion, and not protecting his own health due to killing a random creature which may or may not be clean. The neighbor may be hungry, does not know any better, and slayed the cat quickly. It is a tragic lost for us but if this is the case, he may have civil responsibilities, but some of the moral issues may not apply.
Taking the creature’s life is a moral action if there is intent. Assuming intent, the issue of whether it is immoral or not depends on what kind of intent is it and what actions were taken to carry out the intent.

Contrasting examples. When we mow our lawns with the intend of stewarding the property and keeping it well kept. There is not sin. One might say that the grass feels no pain so there is no sin anywhere. Well that is not entirely true. If one was told by their parents they cannot mow the lawn for just reasons and they do so anyways. They have sin in disrespect. If they believed that the lawn has feelings and can get hurt and hope to deliberate hurt the lawn. They have sin by willingness to harm even though the lawn has no sense of pain.

So the examples of how people would hunt the wild boar or the jungle boa speaks about the intention of providing food and no intention of causing pain and suffering to the animals. They are not committing an immoral act because of the fact that the act itself is not disordered as far as I know and their intentions are not disordered. What they could be culpable for is if they had means to else the pain of the creatures even more so within reason but choose not to for the sake of profit or effort. Then they would have culpability for their actions in terms of not doing more as stewards. Now in these cases, I cannot speak about that, but if they took proper means and have no cruel intentions, these slaughtering is perfectly acceptable due to the lack of disordered acts.

These examples can be a bit foreign but these are what I’m familiar with. So I cannot agree that all slaughtering of animals is cruel. In the US maybe, I do not know. I cannot obstruct learning or being exposed to knowing as an effect to avoid culpability. Yet, honestly I just do not know even if I have an idea or have some limited knowledge.
That sentence that I highlighted in blue, and bolded, is really good and to the heart of the matter. In the USA that is exactly what people do. We are divorced from our food manufacture, divorced from the treatment of food animals, to the extent that they are mistreated, abused, and spend their lives suffering, and when they, or their by-products come to the table, we know nothing of how they were treated in life, and we wash our hands of any involvement in their industrialized abuse.

I have spent much time on “meat” and “vegetarian” threads here at CAF. I chose the dog meat video for this thread because it is a different perspective that many Americans will have trouble with, as this species of animal is highly revered here as “man’s best friend.”
But does the species matter? Does the culture matter? Should we treat animals in a universal way? If you saw the video it is very brutal and cruel. Should we all take pause and learn perhaps how animals are treated in our own back yard??? How ***is ***that “meat” treated in life? Is it OK to ***purposefully obstruct learning or being exposed to knowing as an effect to avoid culpability *** so that we can eat our meat with a clear conscience?

I have found that people will argue about these issues involving the treatment of “food” animals, without the slightest knowledge, or desire to learn more about what is really going on in the food industry, and who will refuse to learn more, but will staunchly defend their right to eat whatever they want to eat. Don’t we all owe it to God, to His animals to stay informed and to act according to the situation at hand??? We are the stewards, the care takers of the Earth, of the animals. I think some of us blindly eat them, and figure that it is someone else’s job to be the stewards, prevent abuse and cruelty…

And this sentence of yours: What they could be culpable for is if they had means to else the pain of the creatures even more so within reason but choose not to for the sake of profit or effort. This is kind of what factory farming is all about. Treating animals as commodities with total disregard for their comfort and lack thereof, with total disregard for their pain and suffering, because alleviating the pain and suffering or providing better conditions for the animal would minimize profits.
 
The key word is “needlessly.” Since people have a need to eat, then killing for food is not needless. BTW, I must of missed the part of the video where “torture” took place. Would it not have been more cruel to boil them alive?
Yeah, you walked right into that one!!! There are plenty of healthier alternatives to meat in this modern day and age. Very few people in civilized society*** need ***to eat meat. Is a pause in order for us all to stop and contemplate our authentic needs?? (Swiped that phrase from SteveGC, thanks Steve!)

I do believe there was some boiling going on in the video–***you ***can watch it again for the details and report back to us… I think I’ve seen enough… and remember, the Chinese are doing this because they believe eating dog meat from tortured animals improves one’s sexual prowess. There’s a Godly reason to torture and eat dogs–or any animals for that matter… another mythical reason to eat meat…
 
=Marfran;5713660]There are plenty of healthier alternatives to meat in this modern day and age. Very few people in civilized society*** need ***to eat meat. Is a pause in order for us all to stop and contemplate our authentic needs?? (Swiped that phrase from SteveGC, thanks Steve!)
I really like that expression** ‘authentic needs’ ** ----- I think in our consumer driven economy we are out of touch with our authentic needs - live simply, that others may simply live should be on the hearts of all Catholics…

I’ve learned that I don’t ‘need’ to eat meat, dairy or eggs - and I believe that removing myself from this allows me to pull myself out of that circle… where animals suffer in CAFO’s, where damage to the environment includes water laced with hormones and antibiotics, - so no, I don’t need it, and probably most of us don’t - it is what we are familiar with - but we can change - we can make better choices that take all this into consideration… we’re Catholics!!! We are the counter in the culture!

Peace!
 
Yeah, you walked right into that one!!! There are plenty of healthier alternatives to meat in this modern day and age. Very few people in civilized society*** need ***to eat meat. Is a pause in order for us all to stop and contemplate our authentic needs?? (Swiped that phrase from SteveGC, thanks Steve!)
No, I didn’t just walk in. I was wanting it to be clear that this was some sort of vegetarian agenda and not a question of legitimate Catholic moral teaching. The Church has never taught a religion of vegetarianism. I will follow the word of God delivered to the first leader of the Church Peter in regards to meat. I will take, eat and not call it sinful.

So, in keeping with this thread, the Catholic Church teaches, “it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing” (CCC #2417). So, while vegetarianism is allowed, it is nothing special in and of itself.
 
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