Dog Meat

[prodigal-sun]

I guess I must be one of these butchers you hate so much. I have heard your horror stories so many times it’s almost laughable. While I agree that there is certainly many places that could do better on there overall treatment of animals in how they are fed and raised for the most part everything I have seen has been preety good. In my younger years I worked in the meat industry from feed lots to the slaughter house. In one plant I worked we actually slaughtered horses. I used what we called the hammer! It was a hammer type device that you would load with a charge much like a shot gun shell. As the Horse went by I would hammer the animals head and it would discharge into the the animals skull. the animal would then be hauled up on a hook for rendering. As you can expect the animal would still be twiching and moving which I’m sure could be unsettling for certain people but I assure the animal felt nothing!

The funny thing is that some Peta folk came into our operation and stood from the observation deck and (secretly video taped this procedure) they got some video of one of the horses twitching, legs going crazy. They then produced some propoganda with it and there I was, myself and my partner labelled as the butchers of Cargill.

Oh well what can I say, I still eat meat, my concious is clear.

Peace!

 

[pnewton]

The act of eating meat may not be sinful (in and of itself), but disregarding an animal’s suffering and promoting that suffering by irresponsible purchase (not learning the facts about the meat you buy, how it was raised, etc.), or overconsuming it–eating 50% more than you need–must surely be.

No, it is not surely sinful. Perhaps if you wish to accuse others of sin you could provide Church teaching of this convolution. After all, this is a Catholic website, not Hindu. The **Catholic **Church has never taught what you are teaching.

As to the issues of dogs, it is simply wrong to judge other cultures from our twenty-first century American sensibilities. I could never eat a pet. Historically however, there is one case of God ordering the eating of a pet. Likewise, in the Korean culture, who am I to judge them for this?

Again, where from Church documents do you get this connection to sin?

In this topic I see the wisdom of having an authority structure to protect us from those who go waaaayyy beyond what the Church teaches on this topic and what the Bible tells us about the role of animals. I guess it should not be surprising that every other type of Eastern mysticism has crept into Christianity that this equation of harming animals with sin is acceptable.

 

[pnewton]

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that to eat meat is something that is against the teaching of the Church. The Church does not say it is special, you are right.

I do believe that some of us have come to chose vegetarian / vegan BECAUSE of our Catholic faith, so naturally we want to share why this makes sense in light of our faith - with others with whom we share our faith…

i.e. if a = b and b = c, then a = c - the transitive nature of some of these issues make sense to me, and I believe many others too. (ie if it is wrong to be cruel to dogs it is wrong to be cruel to turkeys - if it is wrong to eat dog it is wrong to eat pigs if we are supposed to care for the gift of creation than CAFOs are wrong)

Before I knew about these issues (only 5 years ago) I cooked, served, eat and enjoyed beef, pork, chicken, turkey, fish, dairy, eggs — BUT when I learned about factory farming, (and other issues) I began to investigate, ask questions, read - then - because I learned about (1) the treatment of animals (2) the impact on the environment (3) the distribution of resources (4) the impact on those who work in this field and their surrounding communities… and because of my Catholic faith - I had to begin to make changes -

I am now trying to ‘hear’ what I am saying in light of this conversation - and trying to temper this ALWAYS remembering that 5 years ago I too might have been hurt if I thought someone were judging my food choice - Peace

I understand totally and it is surely the right of any Catholic to make such consciencious choices. It is likewise laudable to give up meat as a fast, it that is what one so choses as a type of spirituality. I wouldn’t say I am hurt though. I know enough of what the Church teaches to know when someone goes beyond the doctrine of the Church and crosses into personal spirituality. All this is fine…up until the point one starts accusing of sin those who do not follow them. At this point I think it right to show what the Catholic Church teaches so that there is not confusion as to this line.

I think your post does a good job of making this distinction.

 

[distracted]

Moral questions about how animals are raised and slaughtered aside, I believe the type of animals we eat are for the most part cultural. Hence, here in the west, we recoil in horror at the thought of eating dogs or cats, while a Hindu would starve before killing and eating the cows that roam the streets of India.

I have a question for vegans: I’ve seen it argued that humans aren’t meant to consume animals and their products (eggs and dairy). However, don’t we require a certain vitamin, one of the “Bs”, I believe, but I’m not sure which one, that is only found in animal sources, and vegans must take supplements for this? Is it that we don’t require an animal diet now, now that we have supplements, so even though in the past we did, the argument is that it is currently healthier and more ethical to be vegan, (even though taking supplements isn’t “natural”).

In Christ,

Ellen

they need B12… the body can live without it for several years but then you need to get it or weird things happen… sorry can’t recall the weird things… but it is a needed nutrient…

also the kind of iron that comes from vegan diet is poor quality iron… and not easily absorved like that obtained frm animal protein…

but it seems to be a waste of time to tel vegans that… They are obsessed w/ saving animals’ lives… to the expense of human life, apparently…

 

[distracted]

When you look at the piece of meat on the plate,maybe we should make a mental picture of the animal it came from, looking at us with scared eyes,as it is being slaughtered. Then we probably would not eat that much meat.(rare, bloody)

doens’t bother me one bit…
especially since if you believe the Bible… God told people to slaughter animals all the time for sacrifice and they had to eat the whole thing… Jesus ate meat @ the Passover…

animals have to die anyway… What’s the diff between it dying and killing it? People who live to over 110 all ate meat… no vegans live beyond the age of about 55 or so… depending on when they started vegan-izing…

The problem is to make sure we get the necessary amount of protein form other sources,so us not to hinder our health.Animal meat has good protein but a lot of cholesterol. Plant protein does not, so it is better.

this is NOT true…

in the bible it says Porverbs, i believe, that it is a shame for a man not to live to be 100…

again, vegans don’t always live even half that long…

i did research on this… you can google it… people who live to be 110 and over are called supercentenarians… NONE of the ones i studied yrs ago was a vegan or even vegetarian…

i knew 2 people who lived to be almost 100 & they ate meat… They didn’t over-eat and that’s probably mainly how they lived so long…

cholesterol, they are finding, is not the villain they used to think… How can it be when your whole body is made up of cholesterol… the cells, i should say… trillions of cells and they all need it…

declining chol levels are a warning sign… Doctors … when they see this, tend to thnk one of several things: Cancer, AIDS, diabetes or some other wasting disease…

those in nursing homes w/ the highest chol levels lived longer, some study recently found…

my HDL (healhty chol) was highest when i was on Atkins… my ratios were the best they have ever been…

i could go on and on…

 

[distracted]

people obssess about animals being killed…

while millions of baby humans are being butchered every year…

i just don’t get that…

 

[maryjk]

they need B12… the body can live without it for several years but then you need to get it or weird things happen… sorry can’t recall the weird things… but it is a needed nutrient…

also the kind of iron that comes from vegan diet is poor quality iron… and not easily absorved like that obtained frm animal protein…

but it seems to be a waste of time to tel vegans that… They are obsessed w/ saving animals’ lives… to the expense of human life, apparently…

Confusion
Paranoia
Numbness in hands and feet
Extreme tiredness

And that’s just what I experienced.

 

[4elise]

I understand totally and it is surely the right of any Catholic to make such consciencious choices. It is likewise laudable to give up meat as a fast, it that is what one so choses as a type of spirituality. I wouldn’t say I am hurt though. I know enough of what the Church teaches to know when someone goes beyond the doctrine of the Church and crosses into personal spirituality. All this is fine…up until the point one starts accusing of sin those who do not follow them. At this point I think it right to show what the Catholic Church teaches so that there is not confusion as to this line.

I think your post does a good job of making this distinction.

Thank you pnewton for understanding what I was trying to say…

I think it is because I tend to have an ‘activist’ type of personality - as my friend pointed out - that I feel that I need to share what I’ve learned.

For example when I learned about the diamond trade and the lose of life and limb in Sierra Leone I shared that with everyone else I knew - especially those with whom I share a Catholic faith - because if one were to learn about how diamonds were traded, it would be difficult to reconcile wearing one - I passed this on to my kids so much that two sons gave their fiance an antique -‘pre-blood’ diamond and my daughter opted for a synthetic diamond.

So… as I learned more and more about the issues of factory farming - I guess I assume other Catholics will also care about this and want to make the personal changes, regardless of what the Church officially teaches / what Jesus ate / or what God told Noah we could eat. In 2009 sadly the majority of animal protein comes from factory farms - and the pollution, use of resources, treatment of the animals, the impact on the workers and community - these are things I think we are called to care about.

Anyway - thanks for listening.
God Bless

 

[4elise]

Confusion
Paranoia
Numbness in hands and feet
Extreme tiredness

And that’s just what I experienced.

We take a vegan B12 suppliment

 

[Jean_1958]

From the CCC:

Respect for the integrity of creation

2415
The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196

2416
Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417
God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418
It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

 

[Jean_1958]

I do not think it is wrong to eat any type of animal so long as it is butchered humanely. The CCC teaches that it is okay to use animals for food, but animals should be treated with kindness. Treating an animal cruelly would be a sin because you would be abusing God’s creation.

In some parts of the world dogs and cats are a more available food resource, but I could not bring myself to eat one unless I was starving to death.

Jean

 

[Marfran]

No, it is not surely sinful. Perhaps **if you wish to accuse others of sin **

Sorry, I missed the part where I was accusing anyone of anything. You are the one who brought up the word “sin” and I was responding to your comments.

you could provide Church teaching of this convolution. After all, this is a Catholic website, not Hindu. The Catholic Church has never taught what you are teaching.

If I am teaching anything I am not aware of it. I thought we were having a discussion on the ***ethics ***of the treatment of dogs as used for meat in China, and whether we should consider this mistreatment of other species as well.

As to the issues of dogs, it is simply wrong to judge other cultures from our twenty-first century American sensibilities. I could never eat a pet. Historically however, there is one case of God ordering the eating of a pet. Likewise, in the Korean culture, who am I to judge them for this?

I don’t think it is a matter of*** judging*** another culture. I think it is a matter of intervention or education. If one considers animals as commodities, not as living beings that suffer, then one can easily ignore how another culture mistreats them. I am not saying that human beings and animals are equal but if this other culture were abusing its children or women we would surely want to do something about that, regardless of cultural difference.

Again, where from Church documents do you get this connection to sin?

Again, it was you who brought the word “sin” into the discussion and I am following through with your thoughts. I believe that we have moral and ethical obligations to God, to our fellow man, to animals, to the care of our planet. The word “sin” is not easily defined and there certainly could be an entire thread devoted to the understanding of “sin” but here is a simple definition as pertains to our discussion:

Sin is nothing else than a morally bad act (St. Thomas, “De malo”, 7:3), an act not in accord with reason. God has endowed us with reason and free-will, and a sense of responsibility; He has made us subject to His law, which is known to us by the dictates of conscience, and our acts must conform with these dictates, otherwise we sin (Romans 14:23)… Catholic Encyclopedia

In this topic I see the wisdom of having an authority structure to protect us from those who go waaaayyy beyond what the Church teaches on this topic and what the Bible tells us about the role of animals. I guess it should not be surprising that every other type of Eastern mysticism has crept into Christianity that this equation of harming animals with sin is acceptable.

I am completely baffled by this comment about Eastern mysticism. Are you familiar with St. Francis? He called the animals and birds his brothers and sisters, refrained from eating meat, and was cannonized a saint. I appreciate his influence and understanding of the unity of God’s creation. You see his influence in some of the Catechism, as well as the influence of St.Thomas Aquinas who had a rather negative view of animals. And a lot of Aquinian thought actually has its source in the writings of Aristotle, as opposed to Christianity.

I will follow the word of God delivered to the first leader of the Church Peter in regards to meat. I will take, eat and not call it sinful.

Again, the “meat” of Biblical times is NOT the “meat” of TODAY–there is pretty much no comparrison there. I think that in our MODERN times we must consider all ethically revevant changes and abuses to the way that “meat” is procured, overconsumed, and how TODAY’S industrialized production affects the animals AND the people, e.g., food fed to “meat” animals could go directly to feed people instead, and help to alleviate world hunger.

There are considerations present TODAY that did not exist in Biblical times.

So, in keeping with this thread, the Catholic Church teaches, “it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing” (CCC #2417).

And the Catholic Church goes on to teach: **2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. **This is a Franciscan influence. **So it is legitimate to use animals for food or clothing, but contrary to human dignity to cause them to suffer. Which does pose something of a dilemna, does it not? How *do we ***resolve this dilemna???

THIS was my original response to your comment that eating meat is not sinful “I will take, eat and not call it sinful”:

In Peter’s time there was no industrialized factory farming, none, nada. TODAY there are ethical concerns in how our “food animals” are raised and slaughtered, and the abuses that they suffer were nonexistent in Peter’s time. Meat eaten in the time of Peter was infrequent, and not a daily occurrence. I do believe that gluttony is sinful. (The average American eats 50% more protein than he needs in the form of animal products.) So it is legitimate to use animals for food, but we must also consider their suffering, our “authentic needs,” and the gluttony which has become typical of our society.
The act of eating meat may not be sinful (in and of itself), but disregarding an animal’s suffering and promoting that suffering by irresponsible purchase (not learning the facts about the meat you buy, how it was raised, etc.), or overconsuming it–eating 50% more than you need–must surely be.

So if we are ***purposefully disregarding ***ethical and moral obligations as to the current situations inherent in factory farming practices, such as cruelty to animals, misappropriation of resources, degradation of the water and soil, feeding food to animals instead of feeding people directly, overconsuming–what would you call that purposeful disregard?

 

[Marfran]

For example when I learned about the diamond trade and the lose of life and limb in Sierra Leone I shared that with everyone else I knew - especially those with whom I share a Catholic faith - because if one were to learn about how diamonds were traded, it would be difficult to reconcile wearing one - I passed this on to my kids so much that two sons gave their fiance an antique -‘pre-blood’ diamond and my daughter opted for a synthetic diamond.

This is a wonderful example of how we must stay current with what’s going on in the world and respond accordingly as Christians, as Catholics.

So… as I learned more and more about the issues of factory farming - I guess I assume other Catholics will also care about this and want to make the personal changes, regardless of what the Church officially teaches / what Jesus ate / or what God told Noah we could eat. In 2009 sadly the majority of animal protein comesfrom factory farms - and the pollution, use of resources, treatment of the animals, the impact on the workers and community - these are things I think we are called to care about.

Yes, exactly. We must respond to the CURRENT situation.

 

[pnewton]

So if we are ***purposefully disregarding ***ethical and moral obligations as to the current situations inherent in factory farming practices, such as cruelty to animals, misappropriation of resources, degradation of the water and soil, feeding food to animals instead of feeding people directly, overconsuming–what would you call that purposeful disregard?

People that do not think as you do are not ***"purposefully disregarding ***ethical and moral obligations as to the current situations inherent in factory farming practices. " Again, where has the Church agreed with your stance, (currently, if you wish)?

And why we are at it, what does this have to do with this thread? The people in Asia do not have the same resources Americans do, nor do they have the same tastes. What I saw was not torture, but butchery. When the animals were killed, it seemed that they made an effort to do so quickly.

 

[Tamsulosin]

2418
It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

This passage sadly leaves out many lonely people, some elderly people whose family does not visit them,or who have no one except for a pet that gives him or her sweet companionship.
In reciprocity, that human" directs affection to the pet".That surely cannot be a sin.
Maybe I do not understand the distinction 2418 makes between love and affection.
Is affection superior?
Again if a person has no one, God may place a pet in her or his life for spiritual solace.
The old man may spend money to feed the dog, talk to the dog as if it was a child.
Who would condem this man for feeding his companion dog instead of sending money to a human charity?
Animals are not objects, and should not be “exploited” if we can avoid it.The world would not be the same if there were no animals,birds that sing,squirrels that make us smile with their cute presence,and dogs that run happily to meet us wagging their tails.It would be a more somber world.
We better take care and appreciate the animals, rather than think what can I extract from them.
When I think of those dishes showing the cut head of the pig holding an apple in the mouth!!!What a horror.Kindness and compassion are the trademark of Christianity

 

[maryjk]

We take a vegan B12 suppliment

But why do you have to?

My low B12 was due to a medical condition. Fixing the medical condition fixed the low B12.

 

[4elise]

But why do you have to?

My low B12 was due to a medical condition. Fixing the medical condition fixed the low B12.

I could eat more nutritional yeast and other vegan sources of B12 like soy milk - but I do that just like many 'omni’s take a multi - vitamin

vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm - here is a good article by a PhD, RD on this topic.

 

[Marfran]

People that do not think as you do are not ***"purposefully disregarding ***ethical and moral obligations as to the current situations inherent in factory farming practices. " Again, where has the Church agreed with your stance, (currently, if you wish)?

**God loves all creatures and has declared them all to be good. **

"Each creature possesses its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the ‘six days’ it is said: ‘And God saw that it was good.’ ‘By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth and excellence, its own order and laws.’ Each of the various creatures, willed in its own being, reflects in its own way a ray of God’s infinite wisdom and goodness."—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1, Paragraph 5, 2:339

“The beauty of creation reflects the infinite beauty of the Creator and ought to inspire the respect and submission of man’s intellect and will.”
—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1, Paragraph 5, 2:341

God created human beings to live in harmony with God, with each other, and with all creation. Sin disrupted this harmony, but Jesus’ death and resurrection make it possible once again.

"The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ."
—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1, Paragraph 6, 4:374

“Christians believe that the Death and Resurrection of Christ accomplished the work of reconciling humanity to the Father, who ‘was pleased … through (Christ) to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross’ (Col 1:19-20). Creation was thus made new (cf. Rev 21:5). Once subjected to the bondage of sin and decay (cf. Rom 8:21 ), it has now received new life while ‘we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells’ (2 Pt 3:13). Thus, the Father ‘has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery . . . which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, all things in heaven and things on earth’ (Eph 1:9-10).”
—from Message of His Holiness Pope John Paul II for the Celebration of the World Day of Peace: 1 January 1990: Peace with God the Creator, Peace with all of Creation, 1:4

Since harmony with all creation is God’s intent, human actions which disrupt this harmony are sinful and will be subject to God’s final judgment.

**“At the beginning of history, man and woman sinned by disobeying God and rejecting His design for creation. Among the results of this first sin was the destruction of the original harmony of creation. If we examine carefully the social and environmental crisis which the world community is facing, we must conclude that we are still betraying the mandate God has given us: to be stewards called to collaborate with God in watching over creation in holiness and wisdom.” **—from Common Declaration on Environmental Ethics, Common Declaration of John Paul II and the Ecumenical Patriarch His Holiness Bartholomew I, Monday 10 June 2002

"The steward must render an account of his stewardship, and the divine Master will judge his actions."—from International Theological Commission, Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God, Chapter 3, 61.

"Today, the dramatic threat of ecological breakdown is teaching us the extent to which greed and selfishness - both individual and collective - are contrary to the order of creation, an order which is characterized by mutual interdependence."—from Message of His Holiness Pope John Paul II for the Celebration of the World Day of Peace: 1 January 1990: Peace with God the Creator, Peace with all of Creation, 3:8

"I wish to repeat that the ecological crisis is a moral issue."—from Message of His Holiness Pope John Paul II for the Celebration of the World Day of Peace: 1 January 1990: Peace with God the Creator, Peace with all of Creation, 5:15

Because God intends creation to exist in harmony, human dominion has limitations. At all times, dominion must be exercised as a form of service and love, mirroring God’s own service to and love for creation, including the animals within creation.

"In God’s plan man and woman have the vocation of ‘subduing’ the earth as stewards of God. This sovereignty is not to be an arbitrary and destructive domination. God calls man and woman, made in the image of the Creator ‘who loves everything that exists’, to share in his providence toward other creatures; hence their responsibility for the world God has entrusted to them."
—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1, Paragraph 6, 3:373

“God has not abandoned the world.** It is His will that His design and our hope for it will be realized through our co-operation in restoring its original harmony. **In our own time we are witnessing a growth of an ecological awareness which needs to be encouraged, so that it will lead to practical programmes and initiatives. An awareness of the relationship between God and humankind brings a fuller sense of the importance of the relationship between human beings and the natural environment, which is God’s creation and which God entrusted to us to guard with wisdom and love (cf. Gen 1:28).”
—from Common Declaration on Environmental Ethics, Common Declaration of John Paul II and the Ecumenical Patriarch His Holiness Bartholomew I, Monday 10 June 2002

Continued
.

 

[Marfran]

Continued

“Employing royal imagery, it is said that human beings are called to rule in the sense of holding an ascendancy over the whole of visible creation, in the manner of a king. But the inner meaning of this kingship is, as Jesus reminds his disciples, one of service: only by willingly suffering as a sacrificial victim does Christ become the king of the universe, with the Cross as his throne.”
—from International Theological Commission, Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God, Chapter 3, 59

“Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. **We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals….**It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.”
—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Section Two, Chapter Two, Article 7, 2:2416

“Animals are the creatures of God, and, according to the Scriptures, he surrounds them with his providential care (Mt 6:26). Human beings should accept them with gratitude and, even adopting a eucharistic attitude with regard to every element of creation, to give thanks to God for them. By their very existence the animals bless God and give him glory: “Bless the Lord, all you birds of the air. All you beasts, wild and tame, bless the Lord” (Dn 3:80-81). In addition, the harmony which man must establish, or restore, in the whole of creation includes his relationship to the animals. When Christ comes in his glory, he will “recapitulate” the whole of creation in an eschatological and definitive moment of harmony.”
—from International Theological Commission, Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God, Chapter 3, 2:79​

So how’s that for starters? **Pope Benedict **also has a lot to say about animals, ecology, and our responsibility as stewards to the rest of God’s creation. I can post some of our current Pope’s words in a later post, if you like.

 

[Marfran]

And why we are at it, what does this have to do with this thread? The people in Asia do not have the same resources Americans do, nor do they have the same tastes. What I saw was not torture, but butchery. When the animals were killed, it seemed that they made an effort to do so quickly.

So killing animals and making them suffer is about taste???
This thread is about cruelty to animals, all the reasons and excuses for it, our **moral obligation **as God’s stewards to care for His creation, including and especially the animals, and whether there is any difference between species, cultural or otherwise, to allow abuse to continue, and what responsibilities we may have, both personally and collectively to intervene or to seek change in how we administer to and treat God’s animals.

P.S. I believe that*** butchery ***happens after an animal is dead. The dogs in this video were alive, until the point where they died.