Dog Meat

[Ione]

I find myself agreeing with Marfran 100%.
One thing though, I do not have any problems in eating eggs, for no suffering of animals is involved.
About diary products,(I love them)but I do not know if animals are made to suffer when
extracting the milk.
Perhaps somebody knows .
Tam

The suffering of animals in eating the eggs is what the chicken goes thru for us to get the egg. In my opinion it is ok to eat an egg from a chicken that is kept as a pet. If it comes from a factory farm the chicken suffers. On dairy…the calf is taken away from the mother so the milk can be used for the humans. She is sent to slaughter when she no longer produces the milk. I believe the female calves are then used in the same manner and the male calves are used for veal (not sure if I’m right on that but I think that’s how it goes). I’ve heard the babies scream for their mother and the mothers look for the babies. I just saw something recently about a cow walking so many miles or something to find her baby calf. Hope that helped some.

 

[Newbie2]

I would really like to know where in the Gospels it is said that Christ ate meat and fish. I know he multiplied the loaves and the fish.

God’s world is not the world we live in today. When God created the world there was no killing and no eating of flesh. There are references even in the OT to sacrifice of self rather than animals. Christ was the supreme sacrifice for us.

Gospel of Luke:

40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.

God’s world is not the world we live in today?? Say what?

 

[Ione]

by the way, I set out to become what Jesus wants/requires me to become…

"what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:8) (italics mine)

“To love and “walk humbly” with God is to accept His authority, to believe Him, to trust Him, and to do His will. It means living as if you are in the presence of God, because you understand that you are”
(italics mine)
(whereisgod.info)

“Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, *for this is God’s will *for you in Christ Jesus.” (italics mine)
(allaboutfollowingjesus.org)

 

[Ione]

Funny! Illogical, but funny!

I am surprised you didn’t bring up Godwin’s Law.

Maybe I should have. WE WIN! WE WIN!:extrahappy:

 

[Marfran]

Gospel of Luke:

40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.

God’s world is not the world we live in today?? Say what?

She (severus68 ) is referring to Genesis and how we, in the beginning screwed up God’s plan and the original way that he created the world to be.

 

[4elise]

Gospel of Luke:

40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.

 

[severus68]

Christ kept the passover.

Luk 2:39 When Joseph and Mary had finished doing all that was required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to their hometown of Nazareth in Galilee.

Luk 2:41 Every year the parents of Jesus went to Jerusalem for the Passover Festival.
Luk 2:42 When Jesus was twelve years old, they went to the festival as usual.

God Bless.

Chris.

Thanks but I was asking for actual words where it is shown that Christ actually put meat and fish in His mouth. I have looked.

 

[severus68]

They demonstrate that the way we treat our fellow human beings affects God directly and can result in eternal damnation. This is because Man can partake in the divine nature of God. Thus, animals can never be a suitable partner for Man. (CCC 317). One ahould not give animals the affection that is only do to people (CCC 2418).

I answered your questions so it is my turn to ask. Where in the Bible or in Church teaching do you find mistreatment of animals and of humans to be “all the same?” Can you show anywhere in Scripture where people are damned to Hell for bieng uncharitable to animals, as they are for being uncharitable to people?

I queried your response. Christ said that not a sparrow falls that God does not know of, to paraphrase. You will reply that He then spoke of the value of a sparrow. He was speaking of the monetary value. That is not relevant anyway. I was talking about cruelty. A wicked act is a wicked act, Tell me where Christ said it was ok to be cruel to animals. Tamulosin has posted on this thread relevant biblical references.

 

[severus68]

Sorry I don’t know the bible as well as I would like to but this almost sounds as if it means in a sexual sense “suitable partner for Man”. “One should not give animals the affection that is only do to people”. In other words, no beastiality. That’s just my interpretation from what is there.

Good one lone!

 

[severus68]

Gospel of Luke:

40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.

God’s world is not the world we live in today?? Say what?

I will read that reference, thank you.

The world as God made it to be, all vegan in Eden.

 

[4elise]

I will read that reference, thank you.

The world as God made it to be, all vegan in Eden.

 

[pnewton]

I was talking about cruelty. A wicked act is a wicked act,

No, not all sins are equal. Some wickedness is worse than others. As to the meaning of cruelty, I acknowledged that the word has the same meaning in both contexts. It is the object that changes the nature of the sin. Some cruelty to humans is even classified as a sin that cries to heaven. Examples are:

CCC 1867

The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel, the sin of the Sodomites, the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,injustice to the wage earner.

Mortal sins are those which involve grave matter:

CCC1858

Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. .

Note that love of animals is not mentiones as something that constitutes a mortal sin. Instead, the Catholic Church teaches:

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of **those whom he created in his own image.**Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals;** one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.**

I included that last part to provide context that I neglected earlier. The topic here is not sexual sin. The difference between man and animals is not just what I say, but what the Catholic Church teaches. That is why I feel confident in believing that I am not “putting words in God’s mouth” when I say that he does not view it all the same. All people, but especially children are enjoined with a divine love that views their mistreatment as more severe than that given to animals.

That being said, I we must also not say that even a venial sin is acceptable or should be ignored just because it is venial. Acts of cruelty to animals still wounds our relationship to God and destroys a piece of what makes us human.

 

[4elise]

Acts of cruelty to animals still wounds our relationship to God and destroys a piece of what makes us human.

 

[severus68]

No, not all sins are equal. Some wickedness is worse than others. As to the meaning of cruelty, I acknowledged that the word has the same meaning in both contexts. It is the object that changes the nature of the sin. Some cruelty to humans is even classified as a sin that cries to heaven. Examples are:

CCC 1867

Mortal sins are those which involve grave matter:

CCC1858

Note that love of animals is not mentiones as something that constitutes a mortal sin. Instead, the Catholic Church teaches:

I included that last part to provide context that I neglected earlier. The topic here is not sexual sin. The difference between man and animals is not just what I say, but what the Catholic Church teaches. That is why I feel confident in believing that I am not “putting words in God’s mouth” when I say that he does not view it all the same. All people, but especially children are enjoined with a divine love that views their mistreatment as more severe than that given to animals.

That being said, I we must also not say that even a venial sin is acceptable or should be ignored just because it is venial. Acts of cruelty to animals still wounds our relationship to God and destroys a piece of what makes us human.

I agree totally with your sentence.

I disagree that it is the object that only matters. If we take animals to have equal rights to live etc, then we cannot kill them even for food. This is not your view, I know. Even if we take animals to be lesser beings, shouldn’t we as the superior, moral beings have the obligation to treat them properly? Aren’t we debasing ourselves when we abuse animals?

I hope that the Church will one day soon come out more strongly against abuse of animals.

 

[Newbie2]

I hope that the Church will one day soon come out more strongly against abuse of animals.

What exactly do you want her to say about the matter?

She (severus68 ) is referring to Genesis and how we, in the beginning screwed up God’s plan and the original way that he created the world to be.

The world as God made it to be, all vegan in Eden.

M’kay.

So… do you take this to mean we should eat broiled fish

You’re kidding, right? PLEASE tell me that you’re kidding.

The LAST SUPPER account in scripture doesn’t even go into that detail. I sincerely hope that you believe that he actually ate and drank with his disciples even though it isn’t spelled out for you.

So PLEASE tell us you’re not suggesting that unless you can find the words in Scripture of Jesus actually putting fish/meat into his mouth, chewing and swallowing that you won’t believe that he actually ever ate fish or meat. Please.

 

[4elise]

I agree totally with your sentence.

I disagree that it is the object that only matters. If we take animals to have equal rights to live etc, then we cannot kill them even for food. This is not your view, I know. Even if we take animals to be lesser beings, shouldn’t we as the superior, moral beings have the obligation to treat them properly? Aren’t we debasing ourselves when we abuse animals?

I hope that the Church will one day soon come out more strongly against abuse of animals.

---

Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, once addressed the subject of foie gras explicitly during an interview with a journalist: “We cannot just do whatever we want with them. … Certainly, a sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible.”

“Animals too,” he stressed, “are God’s creatures and even if they do not have the same direct relationship to God that man has, they are still creatures of His will, creatures we must respect as companions in creation.”

---

The Holy Father recognizes that ‘doing whatever we want’ to animals is wrong - and I do believe most Catholics would agree - I think it is a learning curve however - some of the stuff I’ve learned about factory farming just can’t be reconciled with eating cow, pig, chicken, turkey, diary, fish … but I wonder if MANY people would rather not learn that stuff - BECAUSE then they might need to make personal changes.

 

[4elise]

I take it to mean that Jesus wasn’t against eating fish, in that passage, or meat, as referenced by his participation in the Passover meals.

Ok… if we then take this literally -

Jesus eat fish ---- therefore it is not wrong to eat fish if they are caught in small nets off boats with no motors,

Jesus ate lamb — *therefore it is not wrong to eat lamb that are raised grazing on the local hills. *

------ I believe one of the differences that some have tried to point to is that in 2009 large scale factory farming produces meat from animals, that like the dogs in the OP, which are not living lives that honor their Creator before they are cruelly killed - especially when WE can live well without animal protein in our diet.

 

[severus68]

What exactly do you want her to say about the matter?

M’kay.
4elise;5739879:

I take it to mean that Jesus wasn’t against eating fish, in that passage, or meat, as referenced by his participation in the Passover meals.

You’re kidding, right? PLEASE tell me that you’re kidding.

The LAST SUPPER account in scripture doesn’t even go into that detail. I sincerely hope that you believe that he actually ate and drank with his disciples even though it isn’t spelled out for you.

So PLEASE tell us you’re not suggesting that unless you can find the words in Scripture of Jesus actually putting fish/meat into his mouth, chewing and swallowing

that you won’t believe that he actually ever ate fish or meat. Please.

No I am not kidding. What I do note is that Christ did not use meat but bread at the last Supper for the first Eucharist. Christ was God made man, He could choose to do anything. He chose to pass through unseen when they wanted to get him as it was yet time. God gave me a mind and I can ponder and speculate. I don’t know why God permitted animal sarifice in the OT and Christ was proving He was flesh and blood in eating the broiled piece of fish.

I don’t know whether Christ ate meat and fish, the broiled fish could well have been a piece of bread. In Luke, the first food Christ ate was bread.

That is not the issue here. We are discussing cruelty to animals and the necessity of eating meat today.

I do not eat . I used to when I was younger and did not know better. I am doing what I think best for myself, animals and this earth. I am not committing a sin in not eating meat.

The author of the OP was bringing his/her point of view about animals and how we treat them to the table. There is no way he/she or I can force you to our way of thinking.

The most adverse reactions I got when I became vegetarian was from Catholics. I was surprised. Why this vehemence?

You can leave the welfare of animals out of the equation and it still best today to go vegetarian. If you want to feed starving kids, grow plants for food, don’t raise animals for food. That is a fact.

 

[4elise]

Newbie2;5740151:

What exactly do you want her to say about the matter?

M’kay.

No I am not kidding. What I do note is that Christ did not use meat but bread at the last Supper for the first Eucharist. Christ was God made man, He could choose to do anything. He chose to pass through unseen when they wanted to get him as it was yet time. God gave me a mind and I can ponder and speculate. I don’t know why God permitted animal sarifice in the OT and Christ was proving He was flesh and blood in eating the broiled piece of fish.

I don’t know whether Christ ate meat and fish, the broiled fish could well have been a piece of bread. In Luke, the first food Christ ate was bread.

That is not the issue here. We are discussing cruelty to animals and the necessity of eating meat today.

I do not eat . I used to when I was younger and did not know better. I am doing what I think best for myself, animals and this earth. I am not committing a sin in not eating meat.

The author of the OP was bringing his/her point of view about animals and how we treat them to the table. There is no way he/she or I can force you to our way of thinking.

The most adverse reactions I got when I became vegetarian was from Catholics. I was surprised. Why this vehemence?

You can leave the welfare of animals out of the equation and it still best today to go vegetarian. If you want to feed starving kids, grow plants for food, don’t raise animals for food. That is a fact.

FIRST - that wasn’t my quote - was Newby’s -----
I replied to that post as well -

I too am surprised by the strong reaction many people have when they find out one is a vegetarian / vegan. I had a long discussion with a close friend about this and she said that - even if I may not say anything at any given time ---- she said that she feels judged because she KNOWS my reasons are based on my belief that the choice is for environmental, resources, and because of the way animals are treated in factory farms - so anyone feeling judged is going to react defensively, right?

I think those of us who have made that connection if they share that activist personality that I seem to be walking around with - just feel the need to share this with other Catholics because it makes sense to us, so we think it will make sense to them too if we just explain it better.

 

[Marfran]

Acts of cruelty to animals still wounds our relationship to God and destroys a piece of what makes us human.

That is beautifully put!!!