Dogma question

[JFT212]

My wife and I are very close to our neighbors, who are Lutheran. The other evening the news of the new Anglican members of the Church prompted a question that led to a bulky conversation among 4 people who clearly are not theologians.

My friend asked if a Catholic priest, under any circumstances whatsoever, could be allowed to marry and still be allowed to serve as a priest. My wife and I explained that was impossible. He then asked if the discipline of continence were no longer required, was there any way at all that a Catholic priest ordained under the discipline would be allowed to marry–basically excused from the vow. After saying that would never happen, I agreed to ask. I’m too embarrassed to ask my wonderful pastor who would think I was off my rocker. So am I correct? Isn’t it impossible, even under such an unlikely scenario for current priest to be allowed to marry even if the discipline were made optional? My apolpgies for this question, but I did agree to ask. (my wife said I should just pretend to ask, but that wouldn’t feel right.)

 

[couponfit]

My wife and I are very close to our neighbors, who are Lutheran. The other evening the news of the new Anglican members of the Church prompted a question that led to a bulky conversation among 4 people who clearly are not theologians.

My friend asked if a Catholic priest, under any circumstances whatsoever, could be allowed to marry and still be allowed to serve as a priest. My wife and I explained that was impossible. He then asked if the discipline of continence were no longer required, was there any way at all that a Catholic priest ordained under the discipline would be allowed to marry–basically excused from the vow. After saying that would never happen, I agreed to ask. I’m too embarrassed to ask my wonderful pastor who would think I was off my rocker. So am I correct? Isn’t it impossible, even under such an unlikely scenario for current priest to be allowed to marry even if the discipline were made optional? My apolpgies for this question, but I did agree to ask. (my wife said I should just pretend to ask, but that wouldn’t feel right.)

The discipline would not be reversed in such a way. First catholic priests, of the 22 eastern rite churches can marry before ordination. But no catholic can marry once ordained. Further, angelicans who are married but enter communion with the roman catholic church would remain married at rc priests.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I wish Brother JR would jump on this one. It is a discipline not a dogma. However, it is a discipline that is here to stay. I cannot think of any situation where a priest would be allowed to marry but I can think of a rare situation where a permanent deacon may be given a dispensation to remarry.

 

[JFT212]

Thanks for answering so quickly. So even if the discipline were lifted (which we told him would never happen despite the liberal media’s attempts to raise the topic from time to time), there is no way, none, that the Vatcan or the Pope could extend that to the already ordained. (I also pointed out that, in addition to Church teaching and God’s will, this would be one practical reason celibacy cant be made optional.) how would you reconcile having two classes of priests like that.

 

[pablope]

My wife and I are very close to our neighbors, who are Lutheran. The other evening the news of the new Anglican members of the Church prompted a question that led to a bulky conversation among 4 people who clearly are not theologians.

My friend asked if a Catholic priest, under any circumstances whatsoever, could be allowed to marry and still be allowed to serve as a priest. My wife and I explained that was impossible.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Thanks for answering so quickly. So even if the discipline were lifted (which we told him would never happen despite the liberal media’s attempts to raise the topic from time to time), there is no way, none, that the Vatcan or the Pope could extend that to the already ordained. (I also pointed out that, in addition to Church teaching and God’s will, this would be one practical reason celibacy cant be made optional.) how would you reconcile having two classes of priests like that.

I think a) a transition period would ensue so that most likely you did not have two classes b) that situation would be extremely hypothetical as I cannot see that discipline being lifted.

 

[Khalid]

If the discipline were changed, men who were married could be ordained, but men already ordained could not be married. Men in the EO and ECC who are married are ordained to the presbyterate frequently today, although Bishops are chosen from the ranks of the celibate (although that too is a discipline), but men who are already ordained to the transitional diaconate can not be married without being laicized first. There are married Roman Catholic priests who were married and then ordained as an Anglican or Lutheran or Orthodox, and then converted to the True Faith.

This has been the constant practice of the Church from Apostolic times - that married men could become priests, and even bishops, but priests and bishops could not become married men.

 

[Julia_Mae]

If the discipline were changed, men who were married could be ordained, but men already ordained could not be married. .

How do you know that about already ordained could not be married? Since this hasn’t happened, why would we presume the already ordained wouldn’t be released from their celibacy vows as part of the change?

 

[Filii_Dei]

I affirm all that the previous posters have said in that celibacy is required of all priests. Priests must be celibate before ordination, and even married priests are not permitted to re-marry after ordination. This is the discipline of the Church and is enforced by default unless a rare dispensation is given.

There is a (very ,very) rare exception given to married priests who are widowed but with dependent children. They are permitted to remarry in order to help bring up their children in a healthy family environment instead of having to cope as a single parent. However, given that married priests in the Roman Church is uncommon enough as it were, and being widowed while having dependent children is also a rare event, it makes for a highly unlikely situation.

Nonetheless, in the Roman Church, the discipline remains that priests should be celibate, and it is not likely that it will ever change.

 

[Khalid]

How do you know that about already ordained could not be married? Since this hasn’t happened, why would we presume the already ordained wouldn’t be released from their celibacy vows as part of the change?

As it has been the constant practice of the historic Church, from the time of the Great Apostle St Paul and the Prince of the Apostles St Peter - a practice set by their very own examples and exhortations and admonitions in canonical sacred Scripture, as moved by the Holy Spirit of God to write. And unchanging forevermore.

 

[1ke]

My wife and I are very close to our neighbors, who are Lutheran. The other evening the news of the new Anglican members of the Church prompted a question that led to a bulky conversation among 4 people who clearly are not theologians.

My friend asked if a Catholic priest, under any circumstances whatsoever, could be allowed to marry and still be allowed to serve as a priest. My wife and I explained that was impossible. He then asked if the discipline of continence were no longer required, was there any way at all that a Catholic priest ordained under the discipline would be allowed to marry–basically excused from the vow. After saying that would never happen, I agreed to ask. I’m too embarrassed to ask my wonderful pastor who would think I was off my rocker. So am I correct? Isn’t it impossible, even under such an unlikely scenario for current priest to be allowed to marry even if the discipline were made optional? My apolpgies for this question, but I did agree to ask. (my wife said I should just pretend to ask, but that wouldn’t feel right.)

A married man may become a priest in certain situations including the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church and under certain privileges established by the Pope for Anglican priests entering the Catholic Church.

Once ordained, a priest **cannot **marriage:

Can. 1087 Those in sacred orders invalidly attempt marriage.

 

[Julia_Mae]

As it has been the constant practice of the historic Church, from the time of the Great Apostle St Paul and the Prince of the Apostles St Peter - a practice set by their very own examples and exhortations and admonitions in canonical sacred Scripture, as moved by the Holy Spirit of God to write. And unchanging forevermore.

Right. But do you have a reference?

 

[TimothyH]

I wish Brother JR would jump on this one. It is a discipline not a dogma. However, it is a discipline that is here to stay. I cannot think of any situation where a priest would be allowed to marry but I can think of a rare situation where a permanent deacon may be given a dispensation to remarry.

My understanding is that a permanent deacon needs to be laicized in order to remarry.

-Tim-

 

[thistle]

As it has been the constant practice of the historic Church, from the time of the Great Apostle St Paul and the Prince of the Apostles St Peter - a practice set by their very own examples and exhortations and admonitions in canonical sacred Scripture, as moved by the Holy Spirit of God to write.** And unchanging forevermore**.

Disciplines can and have been changed. Whether the celibacy of priests will be changed or not does not mean it cannot be changed so your statement “unchanging forevermore” is not one you can make because not even the Church has stated that.

 

[JFT212]

Thank you all…I took the high road and just said my wife (“just leave me out of it” and I checked and, nah, nah-- we were right. We are very good friends. And he said he’d checked with a canon lawyer at th school where my friend teaches and he said, if they lift the discipline, there are all kinds of church laws and legal theories that could make anything possible.

I agree with all of you that this discussion is completely hypothetical, more suited for the classes his friend teaches than us. The RC priesthood will remain a celibate priesthood; in time, there will be no married former Anglican now Catholic priests (so non-RC friends will stop asking if this means mandatory celibacy will be gone), and the issue will never be in play. :tiphat:

 

[CDB1718]

An Anglican bishop who converted answered this in a interview.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1200322.htm
Q: Some people have said it’s not really fair, because married Catholic priests can’t come back. How would you respond to that?

A: It’s kind of easy actually. That would be to compare apples and oranges. When we became priests in the Anglican Church, we became priests in an ecclesial tradition that permitted married clergy. So the Holy See is simply recognizing that and allowing us … it’s an ancient principle from the early church. Whatever stage of life you are in when you come into the ministry, that’s where you stay. So if a man came as a celibate, he would be required to maintain that discipline. If one came as a married man, he would be expected to be a good husband. And if he should ever be widowed, then he would embrace the discipline of celibacy. It’s not a new rule, it’s basically the old Eastern discipline about married clergy. So, I don’t want it to sound critical, but for those Catholic priests who left to get married and then want to come back again, that’s a whole totally different question for them. And I don’t think it is comparable to what the ordinariate is about.

 

[Khalid]

Right. But do you have a reference?

The canonical writings of St Paul in the Bible, who exhorts those who are widowed, “I wish all were as I am, but if you are not, I say by way of concession, it is better to marry than to be aflame [with passion]”. St Paul thus, being previously married but having lost(?) his wife, now being in a priestly state, was incapable of remarriage. (I think the speech is in 1 Corinthians, the the reference to his marriage in Acts.) St Peter was married (as his mother-in-law was healed by Jesus), but did not remarry after he had attained the priestly state.

I’m not saying that there haven’t been married preists, bishops, and even Popes throughout history - but only that once a man is ordained, the doors of matrimony are closed to him unless he’s laicized.

One can also check the writings of the Fathers of the Church, from the Apostolic Fathers onward, and find scattered references either 1) saying the same thing, or 2) saying other things that necessarily imply it. I’m not sure of the exact authors (for some reason, St Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Clement of Rome come to mind for the early period * and Augustine, who wrote many tracts on marriage, for the Nicene period), and the corpus is too large to search by hand on a whim, unless one already knows the Father one is looking for (25k pages in 38 volumes).

It was established in the canonical scriptures (this alone, combined with the teaching of the Magisterium, establishes the facts of the matter beyond the shadow of even the most persistent doubt), and was additionally lived by the example of the Apostle and the Prince of the Apostles, and upheld by the orthodox Fathers and Doctors of the Church from the earliest Apostolic times, through the times of Augustine, through all times.

I think you can find the writings digitized online at ccel.org, and facilities may be available for an electronic search there.*

 

[Khalid]

Disciplines can and have been changed. Whether the celibacy of priests will be changed or not does not mean it cannot be changed so your statement “unchanging forevermore” is not one you can make because not even the Church has stated that.

No, you misunderstand. I say that it is entirely possible for married men to become priests (as they have done from Apostolic times, and in some situations now do), but that the men who are already ordained can never be free to marry. That married men being ineligible for the priesthood is a discipline, and changeable, yes: that ordained men being married is a discipline and changeable, no (through the constant and unchanging teaching of the ordinary magisterium, beyond the teaching of the canonical Scriptures and exhortations of the Apostle on the matter).

 

[thistle]

No, you misunderstand. I say that it is entirely possible for married men to become priests (as they have done from Apostolic times, and in some situations now do), but that the men who are already ordained can never be free to marry. That married men being ineligible for the priesthood is a discipline, and changeable, yes:** that ordained men being married is a discipline and changeable, no (through the constant and unchanging teaching of the ordinary magisterium, beyond the teaching of the canonical Scriptures and exhortations of the Apostle on the matter)**.

This is a discipline and all disciplines can be changed. The Church does not teach and never has taught that the celibacy discipline cannot be changed.
Whether it will be changed is a different issue. Personally I don’t think it will.

 

[liturgyluver]

I think the issue may be forced when somebody realises that they need to get to grips with the shortage of priests, which have declined by nearly 50%. The average age of Catholic priests is rising year by year and the ones who retire are not being replensished by fresh blood. In my own parish, mass is often taken by a visiting priest who hardly speaks any English, and can barely manage to get through the mass - such a painful experience for him, and for us.