Dogma - what is the meaning today

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The reason I pose this question lies in the fact that I see people in the forum questioning defined Dogmas as if they are up for debate.

Since when are Catholic allowed to doubt or deny defined Dogmas?

Anyone?
 
Pitifully, we’ve been so poorly catechized that many think their opinions are of greater importance than the wisdom of our Popes.
 
Pitifully, we’ve been so poorly catechized that many think their opinions are of greater importance than the wisdom of our Popes.
Sadly, you don’t have to be poorly catechized to think that your opinions are worth gold. Forums are full of people who aren’t poorly catechized and still think their opinions are worth more than the wisdom of our Vicars of Christ.
 
The reason I pose this question lies in the fact that I see people in the forum questioning defined Dogmas as if they are up for debate.

Since when are Catholic allowed to doubt or deny defined Dogmas?

Anyone?
The Magisterium and only the Magisterium is competent to define what is dogma or what is the set of dogmas.

: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

It is not necessarily infallible and consequently eternal. Only God is absolute, we all are accidental and our perception is always imperfect. The Church has binding and loosing power, and due to our imperfection words could mean different things in different times. We are Militant Church, always the latest command is binding, the only questionable points are what does not come from the competent magisterium.

No laymen, no member of the lower clergy, no bishop without jurisdiction is competent judge over the Magisterium. The temptation that we know good and evil comes from the Enemy.
 
The reason I pose this question lies in the fact that I see people in the forum questioning defined Dogmas as if they are up for debate.

Since when are Catholic allowed to doubt or deny defined Dogmas?

Anyone?
Its very simple. A Catholic MUST NOT doubt or deny a dogma. That would be heresy.
 
Its very simple. A Catholic MUST NOT doubt or deny a dogma. That would be heresy.
It’s not quite that simple; under Canon 751, “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith . . . .” A person who has occasional doubts is a human being. A person who persists in obstinate doubt may be a heretic.
 
The reason I pose this question lies in the fact that I see people in the forum questioning defined Dogmas as if they are up for debate.

Since when are Catholic allowed to doubt or deny defined Dogmas?

Anyone?
Since the Catholic Church teaching on following one’s conscience (see the Catechism para 1776 ff.)
 
The Magisterium and only the Magisterium is competent to define what is dogma or what is the set of dogmas.

: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

It is not necessarily infallible and consequently eternal. Only God is absolute, we all are accidental and our perception is always imperfect. The Church has binding and loosing power, and due to our imperfection words could mean different things in different times. We are Militant Church, always the latest command is binding, the only questionable points are what does not come from the competent magisterium.
That’s not correct. Dogmas are absolutely true and irreformable. We can (and must) have 100% certitude in the dogmas of the Church. These must be adhered to with unshakable faith. If we are to maintain (as the Modernists do) that dogmas are nothing but an attempt to state the truth by a fallible human beings, it will destroy the certitude of faith. We don’t believe something simply because the Church teaches it; we believe it because what the Church has defined is true. What you wrote above sounds very similar to how Pius X described the Modernists idea of dogma. This is what he said.

Pope St. Pius X: "We have thus reached one of the principal points in the Modernist’s system, namely, the origin and the nature of dogma. For they place the origin of dogma in those primitive and simple formulas, which, under a certain aspect, are necessary to faith; for revelation, to be truly such, requires the clear knowledge of God in the consciousness. But dogma itself, they apparently hold, strictly consists in the secondary formulas .

To ascertain the nature of dogma, we must first find the relation which exists between the religious formulas and the religious sense. This will be readily perceived by anyone who holds that these formulas have no other purpose than to furnish the believer with a means of giving to himself an account of his faith. These formulas therefore stand midway between the believer and his faith; in their relation to the faith they are the inadequate expression of its object, and are usually called symbols; in their relation to the believer they are mere instruments.

Hence [according to the Modernists] it is quite impossible to maintain that they [Dogmas] absolutely contain the truth: for, in so far as they are symbols, they are the images of truth, and so must be adapted to the religious sense in its relation to man; and as instruments, they are the vehicles of truth, and must therefore in their turn be adapted to man in his relation to the religious sense. But the object of the religious sense, as something contained in the absolute, possesses an infinite variety of aspects, of which now one, now another, may present itself. In like manner he who believes can avail himself of varying conditions. **Consequently, the formulas which we call dogma must be subject to these vicissitudes, and are, therefore, liable to change. Thus the way is open to the intrinsic evolution of dogma. Here we have an immense structure of sophisms which ruin and wreck all religion. **

13.** Dogma is not only able, but ought to evolve and to be changed. This is strongly affirmed by the Modernists, and clearly flows from their principles.** papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm
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Laszlo:
No laymen, no member of the lower clergy, no bishop without jurisdiction is competent judge over the Magisterium. The temptation that we know good and evil comes from the Enemy.
Once again I must disagree. Man is capable of knowing good and evil, and it is not a temptation to realize this fact. When the devil told Eve she would know good and evil as a consequence of eating the forbidden fruit, this was a temptation for her because she only knew good at the time. One of the consequences of original sin is that we now know both good and evil.

Prior to the fall, evil did not exist in the world; today it does. Since we are rational beings, we have the ability to judge, and therefore to determine good from evil; in fact, the natural law, which is stamped upon our reason (Romans 2:15), enables us to know what is good and what is evil instinctively. As soon as a person arrives at the use of reason, they are able to judge good from evil and must act accordingly. If man was not able to judge good from evil, it would be unjust for God to punish him when he sinned.
 
The Magisterium and only the Magisterium is competent to define what is dogma or what is the set of dogmas.

: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

It is not necessarily infallible and consequently eternal. Only God is absolute, we all are accidental and our perception is always imperfect. The Church has binding and loosing power, and due to our imperfection words could mean different things in different times. We are Militant Church, always the latest command is binding, the only questionable points are what does not come from the competent magisterium.

No laymen, no member of the lower clergy, no bishop without jurisdiction is competent judge over the Magisterium. The temptation that we know good and evil comes from the Enemy.
I agree with most of what you say except for this: "Due to our imperfection words could mean different things in different times. " Isnt that the Entire reason for the Guidance of the Holy Ghost from the Chair of St Peter? So that Truth in the time of Jesus is the same Truth today? Isnt that a form of Hegelianism?
 
That’s not correct. Dogmas are absolutely true and irreformable. We can (and must) have 100% certitude in the dogmas of the Church. These must be adhered to with unshakable faith. If we are to maintain (as the Modernists do) that dogmas are nothing but an attempt to state the truth by a fallible human beings, it will destroy the certitude of faith. We don’t believe something simply because the Church teaches it; we believe it because what the Church has defined is true. What you wrote above sounds very similar to how Pius X described the Modernists idea of dogma. This is what he said.

Pope St. Pius X: "We have thus reached one of the principal points in the Modernist’s system, namely, the origin and the nature of dogma. For they place the origin of dogma in those primitive and simple formulas, which, under a certain aspect, are necessary to faith; for revelation, to be truly such, requires the clear knowledge of God in the consciousness. But dogma itself, they apparently hold, strictly consists in the secondary formulas .

To ascertain the nature of dogma, we must first find the relation which exists between the religious formulas and the religious sense. This will be readily perceived by anyone who holds that these formulas have no other purpose than to furnish the believer with a means of giving to himself an account of his faith. These formulas therefore stand midway between the believer and his faith; in their relation to the faith they are the inadequate expression of its object, and are usually called symbols; in their relation to the believer they are mere instruments.

Hence [according to the Modernists] it is quite impossible to maintain that they [Dogmas] absolutely contain the truth: for, in so far as they are symbols, they are the images of truth, and so must be adapted to the religious sense in its relation to man; and as instruments, they are the vehicles of truth, and must therefore in their turn be adapted to man in his relation to the religious sense. But the object of the religious sense, as something contained in the absolute, possesses an infinite variety of aspects, of which now one, now another, may present itself. In like manner he who believes can avail himself of varying conditions. **Consequently, the formulas which we call dogma must be subject to these vicissitudes, and are, therefore, liable to change. Thus the way is open to the intrinsic evolution of dogma. Here we have an immense structure of sophisms which ruin and wreck all religion. **

13.** Dogma is not only able, but ought to evolve and to be changed. This is strongly affirmed by the Modernists, and clearly flows from their principles.** papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm

Once again I must disagree. Man is capable of knowing good and evil, and it is not a temptation to realize this fact. When the devil told Eve she would know good and evil as a consequence of eating the forbidden fruit, this was a temptation for her because she only knew good at the time. One of the consequences of original sin is that we now know both good and evil.

Prior to the fall, evil did not exist in the world; today it does. Since we are rational beings, we have the ability to judge, and therefore to determine good from evil; in fact, the natural law, which is stamped upon our reason (Romans 2:15), enables us to know what is good and what is evil instinctively. As soon as a person arrives at the use of reason, they are able to judge good from evil and must act accordingly. If man was not able to judge good from evil, it would be unjust for God to punish him when he sinned.
WELL SAID !!! This is what I too Believe.👍
 
Words like “must” and “believe dogma” strike me as a bit strong, and contradictory with the concept of a freely accepted faith. The Church does teach that dogmas are true.

But sometimes it takes people, even good Catholics, time to come to accept a dogma or understand it sufficiently to believe what the Church teaches is true. To say that people who have not come to that realization are to have the door slammed shut on them are somehow not Catholic is to deny what God wants from us: to learn to approach Him out of pure love for Him. As long as people who doubt open their hearts to trying to accept even though at this point in time they have trouble doing so, rather than being obstinate (and vocal) in objection, I think it is fair to say that they are faithful Catholics.

Dogmas may in fact be more difficult for poorly catechized cradle Catholics than new converts who have actually studied them in depth enough to agree to swim the Tiber. So let’s not blame the poorly catechized for their poor catechesis by excluding them from the Church.
 
Words like “must” and “believe dogma” strike me as a bit strong, and contradictory with the concept of a freely accepted faith. The Church does teach that dogmas are true.

But sometimes it takes people, even good Catholics, time to come to accept a dogma or understand it sufficiently to believe what the Church teaches is true. To say that people who have not come to that realization are to have the door slammed shut on them are somehow not Catholic is to deny what God wants from us: to learn to approach Him out of pure love for Him. As long as people who doubt open their hearts to trying to accept even though at this point in time they have trouble doing so, rather than being obstinate (and vocal) in objection, I think it is fair to say that they are faithful Catholics.

Dogmas may in fact be more difficult for poorly catechized cradle Catholics than new converts who have actually studied them in depth enough to agree to swim the Tiber. So let’s not blame the poorly catechized for their poor catechesis by excluding them from the Church.
Thats a good point and I think there is wiggle room if “invincible ignorance” (And I mean that not in an insulting way) is the reason someone doesnt fully understand so that they cannot say they fully reject a point of Dogma as long as they do not adamantly oppose Dogma because we do have to have obedience and respect for the magisterium and its ability to dicern.

pax
 
Thats a good point and I think there is wiggle room if “invincible ignorance” (And I mean that not in an insulting way) is the reason someone doesnt fully understand so that they cannot say they fully reject a point of Dogma as long as they do not adamantly oppose Dogma because we do have to have obedience and respect for the magisterium and its ability to dicern.

pax
Unless a Catholic was isolated and brought up catechised in false teachings (and really had no clue what the Church actually taught) then invincible ignorance does not apply to Catholics.
Vincible ignorance applies to Catholics which means they may not know about a particular teaching or there are some doubts because it is not fully understood. However, it is encumbent on Catholics to learn what the Church teaches and if a Catholic thinks they can get away with committing grave sins through pleading ignorance it will not work. Being too lazy to learn or deliberately refusing to learn are grave sins in themselves.
 
The reason I pose this question lies in the fact that I see people in the forum questioning defined Dogmas as if they are up for debate.

Since when are Catholic allowed to doubt or deny defined Dogmas?

Anyone?
Robert the questioning of Dogmas is cloaked in the same errancy as all other modernist arguments, mainly “I can make up my own mind/That was then, this is now” lie that many previous Popes have warned us about for the past 200 years. Just as ambiguities in the Wording of the documents of V-II allowed many to deviate from the documents, the modernists will always try to question Dogma since by creating doubt or perverting meanings they can destroy the faith. The final goal of these heretics is the destruction of the Church. The sooner that Catholics of all stripes wake up and realize this, the sooner we can assist the Holy Father and the devout clergy that remains to help restore Christ’s Church.
 
The reason I pose this question lies in the fact that I see people in the forum questioning defined Dogmas as if they are up for debate.

Since when are Catholic allowed to doubt or deny defined Dogmas?

Anyone?
Good question
 
Unless a Catholic was isolated and brought up catechised in false teachings (and really had no clue what the Church actually taught) then invincible ignorance does not apply to Catholics.
In an era where I’ve even heard of RCIA instructors denying the Real Presence in the Eucharist, I think invincible ignorance applies to plenty of Catholics.
 
In an era where I’ve even heard of RCIA instructors denying the Real Presence in the Eucharist, I think invincible ignorance applies to plenty of Catholics.
No. It does not apply to one teaching and frankly though some teachers may make mistakes because they do not properly understand I do not believe any RCIA instructor has denied the Real Presence. That’s hearsay unless you can provide proof.
 
Invincible ignorance does not apply to cafateria catholics who believe some and then consistently doubt a particular doctrine. Yes a brief moment of doubt for a minute or so is fine, it is there and a part of human nature. But holding this doubt and clinging to it as a part of your life view, questioning the established and thinking the churches doctrine as changable and holding an alternate view is not acceptable it is heresy.

There is a quote from St Ignatius of Loyola. He said that

“I will believe the black i see before me is white if the hierarchical Church (magisterium) so defines it”

Now of course this is a metaphor for the whole corpus of faith and Dogma in the church and this is just as valid today as it was yesterday. If everyone followed this example than the Church and the world would be much better off.

(especially those among the jesuits and religious orders and who have fallen into abject liberalism, they need to get their act together. during the canonisation of Mary mackillop a represenation on TV here {first acknowledged saint of australia} who was a jesuit said in regards to this phrase that “of course this is not the case today,” i almost yelled out heresy! when he said that)

Catholics are required to believe as true every dogma of the Church, to persistently hold a different belief in regards to any dogma is heresy and is forbidden to catholics if they wish to remain in good standing in the Church.
 
Invincible ignorance does not apply to cafateria catholics who believe some and then consistently doubt a particular doctrine. Yes a brief moment of doubt for a minute or so is fine, it is there and a part of human nature. But holding this doubt and clinging to it as a part of your life view, questioning the established and thinking the churches doctrine as changable and holding an alternate view is not acceptable it is heresy.

There is a quote from St Ignatius of Loyola. He said that

“I will believe the black i see before me is white if the hierarchical Church (magisterium) so defines it”

Now of course this is a metaphor for the whole corpus of faith and Dogma in the church and this is just as valid today as it was yesterday. If everyone followed this example than the Church and the world would be much better off.

(especially those among the jesuits and religious orders and who have fallen into abject liberalism, they need to get their act together. [during the canonisation of Mary mackillop a represenation on TV here {first acknowledged saint of australia} who was a jesuit said in regards to this phrase that “of course this is not the case today,” i almost yelled out heresy! when he said that)

Catholics are required to believe as true every dogma of the Church, to persistently hold a different belief in regards to any dogma is heresy and is forbidden to catholics if they wish to remain in good standing in the Church.
👍
[/quote]
 
No. It does not apply to one teaching and frankly though some teachers may make mistakes because they do not properly understand I do not believe any RCIA instructor has denied the Real Presence. That’s hearsay unless you can provide proof.
The problem is that the belief in the real presence is much more that words.

If a Church with the Tabernacle becomes clubhouse, social chitt-chatt, praise of human success; than there is a serious question if the pastor believes in the real presence, regardless how many times he breaks the flow of the Holy Mass pronouncing his belief in the real presence.

We shall confess our beliefs with our actions, words are not enough.

In other hand the judge is God, not us, and may be the chitt-chatting folks are closer to Him, than we, who are scandalized by that.
 
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