Dogs vs. Babies

[RhyannaRose]

I respect what you have to say about not doing a mass extinction of Pitt Bulls and that Michael Vick should be kicked out of the NFL for breaking the law, regardless of what that law is. However, I think you’re reading much more into what organizations like the ASPCA are trying to do…protect innocent animals from being tortured and killed wantonly. The ASPCA is not on a cruesade to end human interaction with animals, that would be PETA. And, ironically, the animal lovers who side with PETA don’t realize this “movement’s” agenda will hurt humans AND ANIMALS alike in an uncessary manner.

I definetly eat meat and wear leather and use comestics that may or not contain animal products. Cows were put here for a reason, and it wasn’t just to walk around going “moo”. I don’t have a problem with animals being killed or trained to work to fulfill human needs. But what human NEED does dog fighting fulfill and what human NEED does animal abuse fulfill? I highly doubt when God made us stewards of the earth He intended us to kill members of His Creation just for the heck of it.

And while I appreciate people needing jobs, I will continue to oppose the fur trade. If fur was the only thing available for people to wear, then it would be fulfilling a NEED. However, for most countries it’s about fashion, which is not a NEED especially when faux fur is just as pretty.

One thing confuses me, and maybe you can help clear me up on this…why did God make a Patron Saint to animals if we’re not to treat them kindly and use them appropriately? I mean…all through this thread I keep thinking “…but what about St. Francis? Didn’t he love animals and stand up for their humane treatment?”

 

[RhyannaRose]

<<<< That is only an indication of violent behavior, that in most cases can be corrected if attended on time by the parents, is not how people turn into serial killers. So you would put a kid in jail for kicking a puppy or throwing a cat in the air to see how he lands? Great solution to our violence problems. Give me a break!!!

Those freedom restraining and mind controlling laws are not going to fix our violence problems. They will not avoid anything.
Prevention is at home in the heart of the family, showing Christ’s way to our kids. >>>>

And no, I would not put a kid in jail for kicking a puppy or throwing a cat in the air to see if it really will land on it’s feet. It’s obviously disturbing to see those things done by a child, but it’s up to the parents to discipline them for it. Such as we don’t put kids in jail for using foul language, but the parents have to deal with it. Hopefully most people would teach their kids that animals have feelings too, and if you don’t like to be kicked why would the puppy like it? If it became habitual and resulted in a death of a animal, then maybe there’s a problem there that needs professional attention.

I agree pointing kids to Christ is an important first step to solving our violence problems, just as bringing His teachings into the world. But I do fail to see how having laws to protect animals that can’t protect themselves from cruelty is “mind control”. shrug Surely it’s not a Christian thing to abuse animals, now is it?

 

[guamani]

But I do fail to see how having laws to protect animals that can’t protect themselves from cruelty is “mind control”. shrug Surely it’s not a Christian thing to abuse animals, now is it?

Read my previous post complete and you will see. The ultimate goal of these cockoos is vegetarianism for everybody. I can tell you right now, as I chew on a piece of delicious Beef Jerky that the only reason that they have to attack the meat industry is to eventually control the supply of food. You just don’t see it. Anti-cruelty laws also apply to the meat industry as it applies to your cat or dog. At the least they establish precedents of law when applied.

Animals can’t have rights base on the idea that they have feelings, because we don’t have rights based on our feelings. That is a very ungrounded thought, and a major error of the animal defenders. They actually now it is an error, but they want you to believe it is true, so they can bring in the cash. We have rights on the base of our reasoning.

We have an inmortal soul that comes from God, the animal’s soul dies when the animal dies because it has no reasoning. The animal soul depends on what it feels from the enviroment and it’s matter. When the matter dies the soul dies. An animal has no reasoning to take responsability for its acts therefore can’t have rights.

The animal is a slave of the matter, that is why a dog chases the female dog and has sex with it the first time he sees it. That is what dogs do.

We don’t do that. We are not slaves of our bodies/matter. We can reason spiritualy beyond that point, therefore we can have rights and duties.

The spirit, our souls, is what makes us superior to the animals.
That is why you will never see a monkey worshipping at the Church, or solving a mathematical equation. It is impossible, as it is also impossible for them to have rights, only because they feel.

Anti-cruelty laws only take away the rights of the poor people, country people, that are trying to make a living using, not abusing animals. But what is abuse for you that are probably from the city and don’t know how beef is produced, is use and a living for me that live in the country and I’m not interested in the life and the city’s culture or lack of it.

Like I said in my first post in this thread, CCC 2418 states that is not inmoral to use animals for leisure and to make a living.
It is inmoral not to do it. Kill a chicken and throw away the carcass is inmoral. You kill it and eat it, is moral.

Now this one is going to make you jump; Kill a dog for no purpose and throw away the carcass is inmoral. Fighting the dog and the dog dies in the process, is not.??? Why??? Ahhh it served a purpose to it’s owner. It does not matter if it was making a living or leisure or passtime. It served the man for a purpose. That man for me is still a bastard, but I can’t go against CCC, because that man is the steward of the creation. That fighting dog was well fed and taken care beforehand. I bet it was pampered.

So coming back to the subject, dogfighting is prohibited in the country. Mr. Vick should be expelled from the NFL for wiolating a law, as Mr. Kobe Bryant should be expelled from the NBA for the same reason and worst because he violated the human rights of a woman.

If there were no anti-cruelty laws prohibiting dogfights, I kick out Mr. Bryant for being a criminal and Keep Mr. Vick because he has not hurt any woman, at least no woman has come forward with that argument. Take note that here in this scenario the real criminal is Mr. Bryant not Mr. Vick. However, Mr. Braynt got away with it while Mr. Vick did not, because we put more emphasis on animal rights and forgot about the human rights of that woman that said she was raped. It was done backwards and completely against what the CCC says. “Deviation of the affection that is due to humans, towards an animal is inmoral” That is exactly what was done.

Just what satan wants. For us to completely ignore each other.

God bless you. Say NO to Animal Rights, and YES to babies.

 

[guamani]

I respect what you have to say about not doing a mass extinction of Pitt Bulls and that Michael Vick should be kicked out of the NFL for breaking the law, regardless of what that law is. However, I think you’re reading much more into what organizations like the ASPCA are trying to do…protect innocent animals from being tortured and killed wantonly. The ASPCA is not on a cruesade to end human interaction with animals, that would be PETA. And, ironically, the animal lovers who side with PETA don’t realize this “movement’s” agenda will hurt humans AND ANIMALS alike in an uncessary manner.

I definetly eat meat and wear leather and use comestics that may or not contain animal products. Cows were put here for a reason, and it wasn’t just to walk around going “moo”. I don’t have a problem with animals being killed or trained to work to fulfill human needs. But what human NEED does dog fighting fulfill and what human NEED does animal abuse fulfill? I highly doubt when God made us stewards of the earth He intended us to kill members of His Creation just for the heck of it.

And while I appreciate people needing jobs, I will continue to oppose the fur trade. If fur was the only thing available for people to wear, then it would be fulfilling a NEED. However, for most countries it’s about fashion, which is not a NEED especially when faux fur is just as pretty.

One thing confuses me, and maybe you can help clear me up on this…why did God make a Patron Saint to animals if we’re not to treat them kindly and use them appropriately? I mean…all through this thread I keep thinking “…but what about St. Francis? Didn’t he love animals and stand up for their humane treatment?”

The ASPCA do not know head from toes, they are dog catchers with guns and badges a very bad and dangerous thing to have in our society. They really know nothing about animals.

They are hired with very little training, they are corrupted, and they are HSUS and PeTA’s puppets. You have been misinformed.

Go to the Column of Jim Beers and read one of his articles and you will see what is happening. Jim Beers used to be a Fish and Wild life officer and is now retired.

As per St. Francis I understand him perfectly. Two years ago I had a dog, the best working dog I ever had. He was ran over by a car, I was very upset and very sad for the dog. I took him to the vet and he had him at the hospital for five days. He said that the doggie was going to be sort of crazy all of the time and he would probably die in a couple of years from a stroke. I said it is ok go ahead, it cost me 500.00 dollars and a lot of hand feeding and bathing to get him well again. Vitamins, medications and everything he needed was there for him. He got well in four months he was like new kind of crazy but he was fine doing his doggie things and his job. He died two months ago, from a stroke, and the only one that cried him was me. And I went to bed at 1:00AM burying him in the backyard. My little dog was dead and nobody was as sorry as I was. Oh well, so you see, I’m not an animal hater, I just have my head over my shoulders, and understand that even when we think they are that important, God says they are really not. They were put here only to help, serve, be used and be ours.

My father used to say, “IF you have an animal you owe it the feed, higiene and health care.”

God bless you.

 

[Marfran]

I’ve been involved with animal rescue for eight years and I currently have four dogs and four cats, all rescues, in my home. I am also very pro-life. In God’s great design of the human mind, He gave us the capacity to be passionate about several “causes” at a time. My heart can bleed for unborn baby and abused puppy alike without conflict.

Well said. :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Ione]

Have you all read about how the Nazis trained young men for their murder squads?? They gave each one a puppy, had them raise it, love it, care for it, 24/7…and then kill it…Again, & again, & again…By the time they were sent out to kill human beings, they didn’t care any more.

Do you suppose the same thing happens to the workers on factory farms and in slaughterhouses? From my personal experience I would say that you hit the nail right on the head! They kill over and over and over and just don’t care anymore. On the other hand, some of the workers get attached and begin to fight for the animals and their rights. I think more go the first route sadly. I think it’s probably even true of some of the family farmers. They just numb themselves to it and tell themselves it’s ok to do. Kind of like eating dairy products. I try not to think of the suffering because it’s not meat. But if I really think about it the animals suffered and died so I could have the milk product. Someone recently posted a pic of a cow going to slaughter (not on this forum) and I couldn’t even make out the picture but just the short description of it made me rethink it everytime I reach for cheese. I know the suffering on factory farms and am vegetarian, but that picture/description FINALLY made me stop and think about using dairy products. I am working on being vegan. It really shouldn’t be that hard of a choice. I find I do it more because of finances than anything, which of course is still no excuse.

 

[Marfran]

Do you suppose the same thing happens to the workers on factory farms and in slaughterhouses? From my personal experience I would say that you hit the nail right on the head! They kill over and over and over and just don’t care anymore. On the other hand, some of the workers get attached and begin to fight for the animals and their rights. I think more go the first route sadly. I think it’s probably even true of some of the family farmers. They just numb themselves to it and tell themselves it’s ok to do. Kind of like eating dairy products. I try not to think of the suffering because it’s not meat. But if I really think about it the animals suffered and died so I could have the milk product. Someone recently posted a pic of a cow going to slaughter (not on this forum) and I couldn’t even make out the picture but just the short description of it made me rethink it everytime I reach for cheese. I know the suffering on factory farms and am vegetarian, but that picture/description FINALLY made me stop and think about using dairy products. I am working on being vegan. It really shouldn’t be that hard of a choice. I find I do it more because of finances than anything, which of course is still no excuse.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[guamani]

Do you suppose the same thing happens to the workers on factory farms and in slaughterhouses? From my personal experience I would say that you hit the nail right on the head! They kill over and over and over and just don’t care anymore. On the other hand, some of the workers get attached and begin to fight for the animals and their rights. I think more go the first route sadly. I think it’s probably even true of some of the family farmers. They just numb themselves to it and tell themselves it’s ok to do. Kind of like eating dairy products. I try not to think of the suffering because it’s not meat. But if I really think about it the animals suffered and died so I could have the milk product. Someone recently posted a pic of a cow going to slaughter (not on this forum) and I couldn’t even make out the picture but just the short description of it made me rethink it everytime I reach for cheese. I know the suffering on factory farms and am vegetarian, but that picture/description FINALLY made me stop and think about using dairy products. I am working on being vegan. It really shouldn’t be that hard of a choice. I find I do it more because of finances than anything, which of course is still no excuse.

I’m posting this comment again because it looks that these two animal lovers did not read it.

I don’t post a lot here, but this is a sensitive issue to me.

It does not make too much sense to me, what you just wrote. Meat and daury products are so necessary for a balanced diet.

Catechism of the Catholic church 2418 states very clearly that:

It is inmoral to spend the life of animals in a useless way, however it is also inmoral to spend great amounts of money that can be used to alleviate human suffering defending animal causes.

Since we all know the position of Humane Society of the United States and PeTA, we as good catholics, should not give any money to their causes because they spend it in animal rights and not to alleviate human suffering. Those organizations only collect money because is a bussiness for them. The more money they get the more they can control the people of the United States, passing stupid laws to defend animals that obviusly have no rights.

It is a shame that Congress cannot put together a bill for outlawing abortion, but they put more interest in dogfights or cockfghts. Money talks ahh!!

Cathechism also says 2418 that is inmoral to deviate the affection that is due to Human beings towards animals.

So we have to make our minds and let Mr. Vick live his life. He raises pitbulls. You don’t have to force a pitbull to fight, that is what they are bred for. I do not promote dogfighting, it is brutal. For me dogs are supposed to be pets, but I cannot give way to the animal lovers, I’m CATHOLIC. I will not give way to antichristian movements, over my “dead body”.

Why they did not make a fuss over the Kobe Bryant case. Because our society is being brain washed towards loving animals. This animal lover societies do not profess animal love, they promote human hate and that is a very antichristian movement.

About all those studies that state that being cruel to animals leads to human cruelty and violence, notice one thing, they all have being made among criminals. Now you mention one criminal that have not kick a dog. If he hurts people, of course he is going to hurt a dog, those are absurd studies made or financed by the same entities that defend animals. They are only assuming things. PeTA is cruel to animals, they kill two thirds of the animals they get their hands on.

We must defend and promote human love and families, when there no more human suffering then we can take care of animals.

On the meantime we used them for experiments, food, leisusre and every other moral way listed on the catechism. You can’t go wrong with the Catechism.

God Bless you all!! and Read the Book it does not get any easier.

 

[Marfran]

Meat and daury products are so necessary for a balanced diet

This statement is completely UNTRUE. Check with the American Dietetic Association. They will not substantiate your claim. Consumption of meat and dairy has been linked to many diseases of affluence including cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and obesity…

 

[Marfran]

Cathechism also says 2418 that is inmoral to deviate the affection that is due to Human beings towards animals.

You selectively quoted catechism and left a few things out, like: 2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.

2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.196 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

 

[Marfran]

It is inmoral to spend the life of animals in a useless way, however it is also inmoral to spend great amounts of money that can be used to alleviate human suffering defending animal causes…We must defend and promote human love and families, when there no more human suffering then we can take care of animals.

What about all the money that people spend on buying luxury meat?? Grains that could be directly feed to people go to feed animals, so that affluent peoples can have their meat, which is unneccessary for health, and is shown to contribute to many diseases of affluence such as cancer, heart disease, obesity…

We could elliminate a lot of human suffering if we adopted a plant-based diet and stopped wasting resources on feeding animals that we kill for our affluent, luxury food.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

This statement is completely UNTRUE. Check with the American Dietetic Association. They will not substantiate your claim. Consumption of meat and dairy has been linked to many diseases of affluence including cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and obesity…Your interjected opinions mean nothing to this discussion.

The USDA disagrees with your opinion.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

You selectively quoted catechism and left a few things out, like: 2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.

2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.196 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

A faithful person can still eat meat of any animal and not be seen an differently in God’s eyes. Just ask St. Peter and all the other saints in heaven.

We are called to be good stewards of the land and animals.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

What about all the money that people spend on buying luxury meat?? Grains that could be directly feed to people go to feed animals, so that affluent peoples can have their meat, which is unneccessary for health, and is shown to contribute to many diseases of affluence such as cancer, heart disease, obesity…

We could elliminate a lot of human suffering if we adopted a plant-based diet and stopped wasting resources on feeding animals that we kill for our affluent, luxury food.

This reeks of elitism. You love pointing the finger at everyone but yourself. Where do you think the fertilizer comes from to feed plants for your plant based diet. Animal and fish byproducts.

When was the last time you took a long trip or vacation? How will you ever off set that carbon footprint from your trip? That’s right… You can’t.

Do you actually believe that if the world changed to a plant based diet that there were be less of a need for farm land, the rain forest would cease to be cut down. In theory that position sound great in reality it will never happen that food production increases 10x and polution decreases if we are all on a plant based diet. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Jean_1958]

In God’s great design of the human mind, He gave us the capacity to be passionate about several “causes” at a time. My heart can bleed for unborn baby and abused puppy alike without conflict.

Well said. Well said.

Jean

 

[Ione]

I’m posting this comment again because it looks that these two animal lovers did not read it.

I don’t post a lot here, but this is a sensitive issue to me.

It does not make too much sense to me, what you just wrote. Meat and daury products are so necessary for a balanced diet.

Catechism of the Catholic church 2418 states very clearly that:

It is inmoral to spend the life of animals in a useless way, however it is also inmoral to spend great amounts of money that can be used to alleviate human suffering defending animal causes.

Since we all know the position of Humane Society of the United States and PeTA, we as good catholics, should not give any money to their causes because they spend it in animal rights and not to alleviate human suffering. Those organizations only collect money because is a bussiness for them. The more money they get the more they can control the people of the United States, passing stupid laws to defend animals that obviusly have no rights.

It is a shame that Congress cannot put together a bill for outlawing abortion, but they put more interest in dogfights or cockfghts. Money talks ahh!!

Cathechism also says 2418 that is inmoral to deviate the affection that is due to Human beings towards animals.

So we have to make our minds and let Mr. Vick live his life. He raises pitbulls. You don’t have to force a pitbull to fight, that is what they are bred for. I do not promote dogfighting, it is brutal. For me dogs are supposed to be pets, but I cannot give way to the animal lovers, I’m CATHOLIC. I will not give way to antichristian movements, over my “dead body”.

Why they did not make a fuss over the Kobe Bryant case. Because our society is being brain washed towards loving animals. This animal lover societies do not profess animal love, they promote human hate and that is a very antichristian movement.

About all those studies that state that being cruel to animals leads to human cruelty and violence, notice one thing, they all have being made among criminals. Now you mention one criminal that have not kick a dog. If he hurts people, of course he is going to hurt a dog, those are absurd studies made or financed by the same entities that defend animals. They are only assuming things. PeTA is cruel to animals, they kill two thirds of the animals they get their hands on.

We must defend and promote human love and families, when there no more human suffering then we can take care of animals.

On the meantime we used them for experiments, food, leisusre and every other moral way listed on the catechism. You can’t go wrong with the Catechism.

God Bless you all!! and Read the Book it does not get any easier.

It does not make too much sense to me, what you just wrote.

Sorry, I know some of this is really hard for people to comprehend.

Meat and daury products are so necessary for a balanced diet.

Actually, they’re not. As I said before, if that were the case, there would be no vegetarians or vegans living. And obviously we’re here! Unless of course that meats gotten to you and you are imagining we’re here and you’re talking to yourself
Sorry to be sarcastic but that’s just a really weak argument.

It is a shame that Congress cannot put together a bill for outlawing abortion, but they put more interest in dogfights or cockfghts. Money talks ahh!!

"Money talks ahh!!" You got that right! It’s called livestock production!

This animal lover societies do not profess animal love, they promote human hate and that is a very antichristian movement.

I’d have to disagree with that. I myself and the animal people (I’m not talking organizations like the Humane Society as we’ve got some bad apples in that bunch, although it’s not hate issues, it’s a whole other topic) I know** promote compassion**for **all **living beings. And they aren’t all of the same religion. Some our christian and some aren’t so the antichrist movement comment is not true either.

however it is also inmoral to spend great amounts of money that can be used to alleviate human suffering defending animal causes.

There’s plenty of money going out to causes that don’t alleviate human suffering. How about testing makeup products on animals. What a waste! How is that alleviating human suffering? I don’t see where going to the moon is alleviating human suffering either. It’s probably adding to it since we have no idea what it’s doing to the environment. The wars? Looks as if it’s causing alot of suffering. Isn’t the production of livestock in factory farms contributing to human suffering? Some people are starving because others think they should be able to have meat, that it’s their right. Don’t you think it’s every humans right to be able to eat? Why should some be gluttonous while others starve? Not to mention it’s destroying the environment. Is that not contributing to human suffering thru illness and such?

Catechism of the Catholic church 2418 states very clearly that:

It is inmoral to spend the life of animals in a useless way

and then you say

So we have to make our minds and let Mr. Vick live his life. He raises pitbulls. You don’t have to force a pitbull to fight, that is what they are bred for. I do not promote dogfighting, it is brutal. For me dogs are supposed to be pets, but I cannot give way to the animal lovers, I’m CATHOLIC. I will not give way to antichristian movements, over my “dead body”.

What purpose does dog fighting serve? Is it not “useless”? It’s not feeding someone. It’s not alliviating human suffering.

Read the Book it does not get any easier.

Well there you go. Read it! It really isn’t hard!

 

[Ione]

This reeks of elitism. You love pointing the finger at everyone but yourself. Where do you think the fertilizer comes from to feed plants for your plant based diet. Animal and fish byproducts.

When was the last time you took a long trip or vacation? How will you ever off set that carbon footprint from your trip? That’s right… You can’t.

Do you actually believe that if the world changed to a plant based diet that there were be less of a need for farm land, the rain forest would cease to be cut down. In theory that position sound great in reality it will never happen that food production increases 10x and polution decreases if we are all on a plant based diet. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Where do you think the fertilizer comes from to feed plants for your plant based diet. Animal and fish byproducts.

I don’t remember reading anywhere that it said *eliminate *all animals. Manure would still be available.

When was the last time you took a long trip or vacation?

Personally, I don’t take long trips or vacations. That’s just me.

Do you actually believe that if the world changed to a plant based diet that there were be less of a need for farm land

I don’t think it’s “less of a need for farm land”, I think the issue is better use of farm land.

 

[Marfran]

Dont you think there is a disproportionate amount of fuss over this dog fighting issue involving Atlanta Falcons player Michael Vick?

They are now bringing puppies and dogs onto shows like the Larry King show, Fox news, Cnn, whatever to gain sympathy in this disgusting sport, if it can be called this. No doubt this practice is dispicable but is it more important than the millions upon millions of terminated pregnancies in the same United States? WHERE ARE OUR PRIORITIES FOLKS?

Are dogs or animals in general now more important than people? I guess it is if you were to view these TV shows. It goes to show how progressively secular we have gotten in this country. And we have the gall to ask God to bless it.

When people become desensitized to the suffering and pain of animals, they are likely to also feel less for people. Children who torture animals often grow up and evolve to inflict their evils on humans as well. (As seen in the biographies of our serial killers.)

I would imagine that Michael Vick and his dogfighting friends would not think twice about aborting a human fetus. If you have no compassion for a living, breathing being–human or animal, why would you have compassion for an unseen human fetus that may be an inconvenience for you if it is born?

Ironically, if more people learned to care for and treat God’s animals well, I think that would greatly impact how people feel about abortion. Our society’s callousness about animal life pervades into a lack of caring and respect for our own species.

Your premise that our concerns for animals are misguided–is misguided itself. We should hope that all people care deeply for **all **of God’s creation. Someone with a large, loving heart is less likely to be selfish, less likely to inflict suffering, pain, or injustice to animals **and **to humans.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I don’t remember reading anywhere that it said *eliminate *all animals. Manure would still be available.

Personally, I don’t take long trips or vacations. That’s just me.

I don’t think it’s “less of a need for farm land”, I think the issue is better use of farm land.

If the need for farmland doesn’t decrease, where is the better for society? Why change if no change will take place. Greed will still prevail meat or no meat, society is only human.

 

[Ione]

If the need for farmland doesn’t decrease, where is the better for society? Why change if no change will take place. Greed will still prevail meat or no meat, society is only human.

The change would come in being able to grow and produce more food for humans rather than growing feed for livestock. More people can be fed this way.