Doing something wrong for the right reason

[cviolette]

I don’t understand. In God’s eyes if you didn’t receive an annulment and remarried you’d be committing adultery. Yikes. You seem to be sure you could get an annulment, but would you really remarry if you couldn’t? You would give up the sacraments? Wow. I don’t know what to say to that.

What does this mean exactly? You mean it’s painful and unpleasant or something else? Have you tried counseling as a couple? Does your husband have any idea that you have given up on the marriage? In light of this post I think you need to let him know-- maybe it will spur him to try and improve things. I’m glad you are going to see your priest.

It seems as though you are dead set on divorce, so I don’t see that waiting a year is going to do anything but prolong havoc.

I know that sounds awful. And I would have to give up the sacraments. I am being honest. I just can not imagine being alone for the rest of my life.

I messed up pretty badly in my marriage. I went to therapy, regrouped and tried to fix my destruction. I was all over the place during this time period. My husband would do one little nice thing and I felt everything was going to be great than he would change the next day. I would put my wedding ring on and be determined to be the best wife than I would toss my wedding ring in the junk draw and completely withdraw. Even my therapist didn’t know what to do. I was telling her that I couldn’t handle the marriage but then telling her that I couldn’t divorce. I was a basket case. Since I withdrew completely from my husband, it has been a little easier. I no longer fall apart when he calls or tense up when he enters the room. I just feel nothing. I know it is not normal and a little nuts but it gets me through the day. And when I am away from him, I am pretty happy.

Therapy stopped when my husband canceled our insurance without telling me. I had to pay full price for 3 or 4 session. So I stopped going. My therapist felt I should continue but I didn’t have the money to pay. Do I need therapy. Definitely, but I get more out of adoration than I ever have from a therapy session.

 

[cviolette]

Cviolette,

Perhaps I’m wrong, but it just seems like you don’t WANT to try to work things out and save your marriage, even if you could. It seems like you’re just tired of the man you married and want to be free of it and marry someone else.

Please correct me if I’m wrong. And what is sooo awful about your husband that you are so dead set on leaving him??

You NEED to have regular counsel with a priest (with your husband, and alone), and you sound like you need some professional help as well. You need to take care of yourself so that you can take care of your marriage and your children.

It takes two to fix a marriage. In the 21 years I have been married my husband has not once compromised on anything. It is his way and that is that. I have learned to just accept it but he has made so many bad decisions lately that I just want out.

He has told me that I would be easy to replace so I don’t think he is going to wallow in self-pity for long. I just feel it is time to let him move on.

 

[cviolette]

I have no answers for you but will say a prayer for God’s guidance for you to help you make your decision. I know from your past posts what you have been going through. God bless.

Thank you.

 

[cviolette]

It seems to me you are trying to do the right thing for the right reason…

Without knowing all of the pertinent details I don’t think anyone can give you any advice on which way to go with this. If you have a good spiritual councilor or confessor who you have been talking with, you probably need to address this with him.

It’s possible this “peace” that you have found is an indication that you are currently on the right track and should remain silent. It could mean that you should share with your husband your decision and as a result of said sharing he is moved to try to save the marriage (or not ) It’s just impossible for us to know…

keep praying and meditating on this matter.

Peace
James

Thank James. I will keep praying. I know for most of my life I have made my own decisions without God’s guidance, which is exactly why my life has been such a mess. I am far from perfect but feel as long as I don’t give up I haven’t lost the battle.

 

[cviolette]

I don’t think I can answer the question for you. But speaking of faking it…just tonight, I was wondering how my husband has faked his Catholicism for 20 years…He says the Creed, he sings “Oh Lord, you are the center of my life…” when he doesn’t even pray, let alone believe in anything like God or Jesus! I just wonder what he is thinking when he goes up and takes the Eucharist. Or says the Creed. I guess it’s worth it to him, to pretend so our kids don’t know he’s actually more of an atheist.

Anyway, that probably won’t help you but it just struck me when you talked about hating to have to fake it right now, pretend that you’re a happy family.

I am so sorry that you believe that leaving him and getting a divorce is your best option. From what you’ve said in the past, it probably is, but it still makes me sad.

Maybe your husband is not always faking it. Maybe, he wants to get close to God but needs to let go of the bitterness holding him back. Don’t give up on him.

 

[cviolette]

You have said the pretense is what is making you sick. Also that the fake is for the kids sake. And that you feel guilty. I think that means you feel guilty for pretending that you are “happy”?

It may be presumptive for the family to think you are happy. Would it destroy the family to know you are not happy, but yet remain married for sake of good?

There are some reasons for separation in a valid Catholic marriage, especially if it is abusive, or there has has been adultery, and other intolerable conditions. There may be such things and I am not asking for you to mention them.

There was a period of time when I was constantly crying and losing track of time. Burning dinner, forgetting to pick the kids up. They knew I was unhappy but they never asked me what was going on. They knew I was going to therapy. I don’t think anyone wanted to open that door. I got through it without them.

In a way my marriage is abusive but it is more of a controlling,aggressive, bullying abuse. Lots of gas lighting and head games. Gets you so twisted in your thoughts that you don’t trust your judgement. Stories changed based on what my husband is trying to get me to do. I see it more now but I still get tied up in knots. I keep our conversations to short sentences and yes and no so that there is less chances of being manipulated.

 

[cviolette]

It sounds like you are undergoing some severe temptations.

What you wrote doesn’t sound like it constitutes a divorce. Unhappiness is part of the “for worse” bit you took in your vows.

I one time asked a woman from India who had an arranged marriage how she felt about it. Her answer was interesting and very counter-western-cultural to say the least.
Their idea is first the marriage, and then the affection grows from their serving one another. They (her and her husband) went into the marriage knowing each other a little bit, but not a lot. So, they knew that there would be difficulties, things they would disagree on, times they would not get along or even like each other. BUT, the marriage was first, and their affection has grown over the years.

If you think that divorce will solve your unhappiness, think again. Unless you have some serious grounds that warrant a divorce, then it is going to have very negative consequences in your life, your husband’s life, and your children’s life.

What I find helps me in any bad relationship is serving the other. He’s not meeting your needs, but are you meeting his? Your marriage is not about what your husband can do for you, but what you can do for your husband (and children).

We are miserable when we focus on our unmet needs, because guess what? There is not ONE person on this earth who is completely fulfilled. That’s what heaven is for. This suffering is part of our exile. We were created for God and our hearts are longing for that fulfilled relationship until we get it. It won’t be met until we, God willing, enter into eternal life.

Love is meant to be given away. And when we give it away, it is painful… sometimes very painful… especially if that love is not reciprocated. But the point is to not turn inward to fill our aching hunger. That will only devour ourselves further and leave a huge hopeless void in us.

Love your husband.

I do think this is true but it is hard when you always give and the other person always takes. There comes a point where you just no longer count, you just disappear, you are nothing. At that point, there is nothing left to give.

 

[cviolette]

I wonder if you have ever been happy in your marriage. There have been studies that if you can stick out any patch of trouble for 3 years, you most likely will get it worked out. I think you are feeling “sick” because you are of two minds. Half of you is already resolved to go, while the other half has to make it look like you’re going to stay.

I am in a very bad marriage, have been for two decades. I have been in your shoes, thinking “OK, at X date, I’m outta here.” For me, it was impossible to maintain that double minded thinking. My youngest is 9 and I’ve decided that if my marriage is still really horrible, then I’ll regroup after he graduates from high school. I think unless there is a lot of fighting, abuse, adultery, or some kind of addiction, it’s best for the kids if you can stick it out.

Make a commitment to stay, and try to invest as much as you can in your marriage, even if you’re depleted.

No I don’t think you’re wrong to fake it, but I couldn’t do it. I would try to stay as long as you can, but I don’t think you’ll be able to stay for very long if you have your mind set on leaving. I would put off leaving and find help for yourself, if your husband won’t try to improve your marriage.

Try to hang in there.

I hope your marriage turns around before the kids graduate from high school. I felt like you did when my daughter was just born. I felt it was wrong to leave so I just accepted the situation and did the best I could. I would probably still be in that situation if I didn’t have a meltdown.

I know I am as damaged as my husband but I also know that even I deserve better than what I have.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I do think this is true but it is hard when you always give and the other person always takes. There comes a point where you just no longer count, you just disappear, you are nothing. At that point, there is nothing left to give.

I fight against my situation, I stopped giving up. On one hand, I don’t expect as much from him as I used to; I turn to others for some of the emotional support I always thought my husband was supposed to provide. On the other hand, when he takes me for granted, I get angry and I let him know it. And I only do stuff for him if I want to, not just because he keeps pushing and trying different tactics to get me to do it. He’s not happy with things as they are, but like your husband, he’s not going to initiate any change, because he doesn’t think the problem belongs to him. It’s everyone else’s problem and we need to fix it so he can tolerate us.

He has said that I am the one with the problems and that I am the “sick” one, and that he could improve me if I’d only listen to his suggestions. The sad thing is that he means it.

One of the things I am going to impart to my sons when they start looking for a wife, is the WYSIWYG principle. What you see is what you get. The person is being who she is, there isn’t a “potential” person waiting to be released with enough love and care. The damage is there and unless the person is truly working on the issues, they are probably going to struggle with those issues over and over again. And they will drag you down with them. The drowning person will drown his/her rescuer.

I love my husband and I respect him because of his character, integrity and focus. But trying to get water from a dry well is tiring. After many loads of nothing but stones, one does tend to give up, yes.

 

[Vico]

There was a period of time when I was constantly crying and losing track of time. Burning dinner, forgetting to pick the kids up. They knew I was unhappy but they never asked me what was going on. They knew I was going to therapy. I don’t think anyone wanted to open that door. I got through it without them.

In a way my marriage is abusive but it is more of a controlling,aggressive, bullying abuse. Lots of gas lighting and head games. Gets you so twisted in your thoughts that you don’t trust your judgement. Stories changed based on what my husband is trying to get me to do. I see it more now but I still get tied up in knots. I keep our conversations to short sentences and yes and no so that there is less chances of being manipulated.

I am very sorry to hear of this. Gaslighting (manipulating another’s perception of reality) is psychopathic. A gaslighter is a liar. If this is the situation, it will be very difficult.

I read a good book, People of the Lie: The Hope For Healing Human Evil (1983) by Scott Peck, M.D. (Psychiatrist). A more recent book is The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us (2005), by Martha Stout, Ph.D. (Psychologist). Either of these two books may help to identify and understand.

We cannot predict the future of relationships. I know of a couple, from church, and I knew them both for years, and one day I read in a newspaper column, that one shot and killed the other, in a school classroom, and then committed suicide.

 

[cviolette]

I fight against my situation, I stopped giving up. On one hand, I don’t expect as much from him as I used to; I turn to others for some of the emotional support I always thought my husband was supposed to provide. On the other hand, when he takes me for granted, I get angry and I let him know it. And I only do stuff for him if I want to, not just because he keeps pushing and trying different tactics to get me to do it. He’s not happy with things as they are, but like your husband, he’s not going to initiate any change, because he doesn’t think the problem belongs to him. It’s everyone else’s problem and we need to fix it so he can tolerate us.

He has said that I am the one with the problems and that I am the “sick” one, and that he could improve me if I’d only listen to his suggestions. The sad thing is that he means it.

One of the things I am going to impart to my sons when they start looking for a wife, is the WYSIWYG principle. What you see is what you get. The person is being who she is, there isn’t a “potential” person waiting to be released with enough love and care. The damage is there and unless the person is truly working on the issues, they are probably going to struggle with those issues over and over again. And they will drag you down with them. The drowning person will drown his/her rescuer.

I love my husband and I respect him because of his character, integrity and focus. But trying to get water from a dry well is tiring. After many loads of nothing but stones, one does tend to give up, yes.

My biggest problem was putting a $ sign on self-worth. I felt like because I had the privilege of staying home and raising my kids that I owed my husband. I thought just bringing home a paycheck was enough. That is all he was required to do. Just my messed up way of thinking. It was hard to find that line where I felt I could say no. He would give me a list things to do and I would just do them. He would even call my up when he was out of the country to tell me what to do.

It sounds like you are better at setting boundaries. Not my strong point but I’m working on it.

I tried getting the emotionally support outside the marriage. It was not a good decision for me.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

My biggest problem was putting a $ sign on self-worth. I felt like because I had the privilege of staying home and raising my kids that I owed my husband. I thought just bringing home a paycheck was enough. That is all he was required to do. Just my messed up way of thinking. It was hard to find that line where I felt I could say no. He would give me a list things to do and I would just do them. He would even call my up when he was out of the country to tell me what to do.

It sounds like you are better at setting boundaries. Not my strong point but I’m working on it.

I tried getting the emotionally support outside the marriage. It was not a good decision for me.

I know. I just get it from female friends.



I was watching a show on TV a couple of weeks ago. The husband actually left a list of household chores he wanted his wife to do…as if she were a maid! I was shocked, and revolted that my husband seemed to see nothing wrong with that! Even if the wife was lazy and acting like she was entitled, he married her knowing that was the way she was and here he is, trying to “train her” into being a maid. He even brought in some other woman to train her to clean! Of course the whole thing was a produced show, but the insulting idea of giving your spouse a LIST of stuff to do, like you are the parent and they are the child…I would have walked out.

Now, my husband may WANT to do that, but he hasn’t had the nerve yet. He makes snide comments to me instead.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

My biggest problem was putting a $ sign on self-worth. I felt like because I had the privilege of staying home and raising my kids that I owed my husband. I thought just bringing home a paycheck was enough. That is all he was required to do. Just my messed up way of thinking. It was hard to find that line where I felt I could say no. He would give me a list things to do and I would just do them. He would even call my up when he was out of the country to tell me what to do.

**It sounds like you are better at setting boundaries. Not my strong point but I’m working on it. **

I tried getting the emotionally support outside the marriage. It was not a good decision for me.

I don’t know, I tend to go all the way over into “&*%# You!” as an approach, and that doesn’t work very well either. It’s not mature. It does get people to leave you alone but you get the reputation for being an angry person.

 

[cviolette]

I am very sorry to hear of this. Gaslighting (manipulating another’s perception of reality) is psychopathic. A gaslighter is a liar. If this is the situation, it will be very difficult.

I read a good book, People of the Lie: The Hope For Healing Human Evil (1983) by Scott Peck, M.D. (Psychiatrist). A more recent book is The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us (2005), by Martha Stout, Ph.D. (Psychologist). Either of these two books may help to identify and understand.

We cannot predict the future of relationships. I know of a couple, from church, and I knew them both for years, and one day I read in a newspaper column, that one shot and killed the other, in a school classroom, and then committed suicide.

I went to dinner with my sisters and mom and told them everything that had been going on in my life. From my depression to my marriage falling apart. When I describe some of the events, one of my sisters said, “You married Dexter!”

I don’t know if I would consider him a sociopath. He does lie and manipulate the truth. His stories change. He will not deal with emotions at all. Has no clue how to love. He will cut you out of his life if you do something wrong rather than deal with the issue. He laughs at other people’s misery. He will never take the blame when he screws up. It is never his fault. Which has made it a tough few years because there have been many disasters and the kids and I have taken the fall.

I was told to hid the bullets before telling him but I think he would rather destroy me in a different way.

Examples of lying or leaving out information. Bought a house, boat and a car without telling me. Sold one of the houses at a major lose. He told me that he made money on it. My brother and one of his workers told me that he lost a lot of money. In the same time period, he borrowed $160k-180k (not sure exactly how much) from one of our rentals. He says that he doesn’t know where the money went. I misplace that kind of money all the time.

Example of changing stories to get his way. One Friday, he told me that things were looking good financial. Lawsuit would be resolved soon. He had a job overseas making a ton of money. The next day, he wanted me to cash in my retirement fund for one of his investment properties. I told him no that it was my only safety net left. He told me that it would be my fault that the kids will end up homeless. Sometimes I sound like such an idiot to my close friends because I am telling them how great things are and then giving them a totally different story the next day.

I did eventually give him my retirement money. I kept some to pay for my college and to pay back my sister the money we owe her. I am going to leave penniless but I can rebuild.

 

[cviolette]

I know. I just get it from female friends.



I was watching a show on TV a couple of weeks ago. The husband actually left a list of household chores he wanted his wife to do…as if she were a maid! I was shocked, and revolted that my husband seemed to see nothing wrong with that! Even if the wife was lazy and acting like she was entitled, he married her knowing that was the way she was and here he is, trying to “train her” into being a maid. He even brought in some other woman to train her to clean! Of course the whole thing was a produced show, but the insulting idea of giving your spouse a LIST of stuff to do, like you are the parent and they are the child…I would have walked out.

Now, my husband may WANT to do that, but he hasn’t had the nerve yet. He make snide comments to me instead.

I have managed to get a real good female friend that has been a God sent lately. I have been trying to get rid of my male friends.

He has never given me a list of house hold chores. More like, go to the hardware store and get this, go pay this bill, go drop this off at the lawyers, start the woodstove, clean out the woodstove everyday while I am gone, if it snows get gas for the generator, call so and so. That type of stuff.

He doesn’t tell me how to clean or cook but tells me that I suck at cooking or the house is a mess.

 

[cviolette]

I don’t know, I tend to go all the way over into “&*%# You!” as an approach, and that doesn’t work very well either. It’s not mature. It does get people to leave you alone but you get the reputation for being an angry person.

I’m a runner. I do need to learn how to confront. I am also a poor judge of character so I end up in unhealthy friendships.

 

[constantconvert]

I was told to hid the bullets before telling him but I think he would rather destroy me in a different way.

Given what you’ve said here, I have once again changed my mind I don’t think you should tell him you plan on leaving. Spring it at the last second. Good luck to you, and listen to what your priest tells you.

 

[Catholic80]

This is a good post but I will provide one caveat from my own experience…
Yes it is good to focus on the good of the other - serving the other and meeting their needs as you put it above. However in some cases/relationships, this can only go on for so long. If the other is not giving something back, you can wind up completely used up, dried out and empty. There comes a point where you have nothing left to give…The well is dry…

Now I’m not saying this is always the case - or even most often the case - but it does happen. There are “takers” out there. People so wrapped up in themselves that they see nothing else. Everything is there for their benefit - period. They manipulate and use people up and then move on…They don’t see it, but it’s true.

If one has a strong spiritual life - perhaps one can survive - otherwise, getting out is the only reasonable option.

Sorry for the vent…

Peace
James

You are absolutely right, and I agree. There’s a reason St. Monica is St. Monica and St. Rita is St. Rita.

And it’s true, that there are cases where separation is better. Sometimes the other person needs the separation to realize how much they took for granted and then they start to miss the other person. Ideally, they get their act together and come back to their spouse with deep remorse and contrition.

I realize I was a little harsh on my last post, even though I stand by what I said. As a child of divorced parents who suffered a long, terrible, marriage before getting divorced, I saw very clearly the pain of selfishness… and it was selfishness on both parts, but more on the part of my mother. She was always concerned that my father wasn’t meeting her needs, and labeled him a bad father and husband, but she never tried to be a loving wife. My father also had a lot of his selfish parts too. And, I truly believe, all of this could have been avoided if even one of them had stopped focusing on their own misery.

Now they are divorced, and my mother is sorely missing my father. She became very violent and abusive towards him in the last years of their marriage over years of pent-up anger. Do I believe that it is “better” for them that they are divorced at the moment? - Yes. Because the marriage was poisonous at that point. Now they have a chance to step away from the chaos that was their marriage and think: “what could we have done differently” and “what can we do now to move closer to God?” Had they started really trying to serve the other 20 years prior, when the troubles were at a minimum, their marriage could have been completely different. Had even ONE of them done this, so much misery and pain could have been avoided.

So many couples are in this exact situation. I catch myself wallowing in my own self-misery every day, and it’s a struggle to fight to focus on others. But, I also know that it is the only way out of my misery.

 

[cviolette]

You are absolutely right, and I agree. There’s a reason St. Monica is St. Monica and St. Rita is St. Rita.

And it’s true, that there are cases where separation is better. Sometimes the other person needs the separation to realize how much they took for granted and then they start to miss the other person. Ideally, they get their act together and come back to their spouse with deep remorse and contrition.

I realize I was a little harsh on my last post, even though I stand by what I said. As a child of divorced parents who suffered a long, terrible, marriage before getting divorced, I saw very clearly the pain of selfishness… and it was selfishness on both parts, but more on the part of my mother. She was always concerned that my father wasn’t meeting her needs, and labeled him a bad father and husband, but she never tried to be a loving wife. My father also had a lot of his selfish parts too. And, I truly believe, all of this could have been avoided if even one of them had stopped focusing on their own misery.

Now they are divorced, and my mother is sorely missing my father. She became very violent and abusive towards him in the last years of their marriage over years of pent-up anger. Do I believe that it is “better” for them that they are divorced at the moment? - Yes. Because the marriage was poisonous at that point. Now they have a chance to step away from the chaos that was their marriage and think: “what could we have done differently” and “what can we do now to move closer to God?” Had they started really trying to serve the other 20 years prior, when the troubles were at a minimum, their marriage could have been completely different. Had even ONE of them done this, so much misery and pain could have been avoided.

So many couples are in this exact situation. I catch myself wallowing in my own self-misery every day, and it’s a struggle to fight to focus on others. But, I also know that it is the only way out of my misery.

We have had the opposite experience. My parents marriage was awful. My father was an abusive alcoholic who cheated on my mom, verbally abused her constantly and isolated her from her friends immediately after they were married. My childhood was awful and I prayed that my mom would divorce my dad. I have many scars because my mom stayed with my dad. My mom should have protected us. It took me longer to forgive her than my dad because I felt my dad had an excuse. I realize now that my mom was abused too and just didn’t know how to protect us.

If I had any feelings left for my husband at all, maybe a little part of me would try to fight for it. But there is nothing there. With all the lies and hiding things, I am not sure that I ever even knew my husband. I just don’t see that there is anything to fight for.

I know I have not be a saint. Far from it. And I have done my share of lying and hiding the truth. That has only been over the last year or two and doing it to pay him back. Which is wrong. He does bring out the worse in me. I hate the person that I am when I am around him.

 

[Debora123]

It takes two to fix a marriage. In the 21 years I have been married my husband has not once compromised on anything. It is his way and that is that. I have learned to just accept it but he has made so many bad decisions lately that I just want out.

**I do think this is true but it is hard when you always give and the other person always takes. ** There comes a point where you just no longer count, you just disappear, you are nothing. At that point, there is nothing left to give.

Well I just remember you having posted quite a few times on here that there is a lot of infidelity on your part. I don’t know if this is still a problem or not, and I’m not trying to say you haven’t done everything you could on your part to try to save the marriage, but have you thought perhaps this is what’s causing your husband to be so distant?