Doing the minimum wage right

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Oregon has a higher minimum wage than the national…and we have had the highest (or occasionally second) unemployment in the country. It’s been the highest in the nation for years. Washington also has a higher minimum wage and they tend to be right behind us in unemployment Connect the dots. We also have a HUGE influx of illegals who are working under the table for less than the mandated minimum. Connect the dots. It’s not hard to figure out what’s happening here.

Ironically we supposedly have both the highest rate of hunger and the highest rate of obesity in the country. Go figure. I’m starting to think about lies, da**ed lies and statistics. I think that about sums it up.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Oregon has a higher minimum wage than the national…and we have had the highest (or occasionally second) unemployment in the country. It’s been the highest in the nation for years. Washington also has a higher minimum wage and they tend to be right behind us in unemployment Connect the dots. We also have a HUGE influx of illegals who are working under the table for less than the mandated minimum. Connect the dots. It’s not hard to figure out what’s happening here.

Ironically we supposedly have both the highest rate of hunger and the highest rate of obesity in the country. Go figure. I’m starting to think about lies, da**ed lies and statistics. I think that about sums it up.

Lisa N
When you look at statistics like this, check on the definition of terms like “hunger.” It’s often defined nutritionally – and it’s perfectly possible (in fact almost mandatory) to be obese and poorly nourished!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
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jlw:
ALSO, it cannot be overstated enough that we don’t really care too much about our gross wages, we care about our TAKE-HOME pay to live on. If taxes are cut, our take-home is more, and it “raises” our living wages.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that the minimum wage, on its own, is sufficient, but rather that it’s an essential component in helping ensure living wages. Target tax cuts certainly have a part on this - for instance, here in NYC, you can set aside money for tansportation pre-tax. A monthly transit pass is $76; when you participate in the program, those $76 are taken out of your paycheck pre-tax and set aside for your transit pass. The result is higher take home, as these are dollars you were spending anyway, but are no longer being taxed.

Such highly targeted tax breaks, in combination with a minimum wage floor, can go a long way to helping increase take-home pay. However, it’s worth noting the difference between this and the general, across the board tax cuts so beloved by the political right.
 
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shockerfan:
Rising wages contributes to the rise in inflation. If a company has to pay people more than they are worth to that company, then it will look to reduce the number of people (via automation or outsourcing) OR they will raise prices. Why would a company, trying to be competitive in a global market, being willing to pay a person $10 or $15 per hour, if that person only adds $5 or $6 of value per hour? If that person actually generated more value per hour to the company, then the wages would naturally, not artificially, be higher. Simple supply and demand.
If this were the case, it would be a problem, but it does not seem to be. Raising the minimum wage seems to keep wages rising higher than inflation. This also neglects the other side of the problem - prices can rise without wages rising. In such a case, you have wage erosion. A minimum wage pegged to inflation, as in the Florida case, helps guard against this. Those opposed to a minimum wage rarely give adequate attention to this issue.
 
Philip P:
If this were the case, it would be a problem, but it does not seem to be. Raising the minimum wage seems to keep wages rising higher than inflation.
This is one of the causes of inflation. As we have seen, the minimum wage is a tax on the poor.

If the cost of labor is greater than the value of that labor, there will be fewer jobs. Those holding jobs on the next rung of the ladder will be paid less than they might otherwise be to compensate for the over-paid jobs on the bottom (pay compression), and inflation hits the poor hardest.
Philip P:
This also neglects the other side of the problem - prices can rise without wages rising. In such a case, you have wage erosion. A minimum wage pegged to inflation, as in the Florida case, helps guard against this. Those opposed to a minimum wage rarely give adequate attention to this issue.
in other words, you’re chasing your tail, and the wages and value added can never balance – you have created a trap from which the poor cannot escape.
 
vern humphrey:
This is one of the causes of inflation. As we have seen, the minimum wage is a tax on the poor.

If the cost of labor is greater than the value of that labor, there will be fewer jobs. Those holding jobs on the next rung of the ladder will be paid less than they might otherwise be to compensate for the over-paid jobs on the bottom (pay compression), and inflation hits the poor hardest.

in other words, you’re chasing your tail, and the wages and value added can never balance – you have created a trap from which the poor cannot escape.
Please spare us the strawmen. The minimum wage argument is that there’s a minimum floor for wages that ought to be maintained, NOT that the minimum wage has absolutely no upper limit, as you seem be implying. A minimum wage is not, as you seem to think an arbitrary number, but ought to be determined in relationship to other factors such as costs of goods and so forth. Everyone I’ve ever met who supports a minimum wage holds that position, too.
 
Philip P:
Please spare us the strawmen. The minimum wage argument is that there’s a minimum floor for wages that ought to be maintained, NOT that the minimum wage has absolutely no upper limit, as you seem be implying.
Please spare US the strawmen.

The minimum wage, by defintion, sets the cost of labor higher than the value added by that labor.

As a result, it:
  1. Reduces the number of jobs available to the least skilled.
  2. Results in pay compression for those on the next rung of the economic ladder.
  3. Fuels inflation (and the poorest people are always hit worst by inflation).
  4. Encourages people in the belief that they can take on responsibilities which they cannot fulfil.
The minimum wage concept is based on an elitist concept – that many people can NEVER learn or gain skills that will be worth enough to support them. That, of course, is false.
Philip P:
A minimum wage is not, as you seem to think an arbitrary number, but ought to be determined in relationship to other factors such as costs of goods and so forth. Everyone I’ve ever met who supports a minimum wage holds that position, too.
So the minimum wage ought to be equal to the value added by that labor? If that were true, there would be no need for the government to dictate a minimum wage.

If you REALLY care for the poor, why aren’t you campaigning for better schools in the poorest district? Why aren’t you pushing your diocese to expand Catholic schools for the benefit of the poor?
 
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BLB_Oregon:
If prices have to go up so that people can actually live on what they make at their jobs, then prices had better go up.
If the prices go up, then they again will not be able to buy what they need to “live on”. It’s a perpetuating cycle, caused in part by minimum wages laws, added to by other government regulations and fiat money.
I think that there will always be some employers who will search out those they can exploit.
All buyers, whether they be buying labor or goods, whether they be big nasty :rolleyes: corporations or a family buying groceries, look to “exploit” the supplier, if by exploit you mean they seek to pay the lowest amount possible. This is how a free economy works - buyers and sellers freely come to an agreement on the price paid for the thing offered. Government regulation, eg minimum wages or closed shops, interferes with and distorts that system.
Raising the minimum wage seems to keep wages rising higher than inflation.
How can this be? The rising minimum wage relies on government action, being done only every so many years, while prices can immeadiately be raised to respond to the increased labor cost and other cost increases. No, inflation is kept in check by an over regulating of the fiat money supply by the central banks, and sooner or later they are going to make a mistake and then we will see a catastrophic collapse.
 
Philip P:
A minimum wage is not, as you seem to think an arbitrary number, but ought to be determined in relationship to other factors such as costs of goods and so forth. Everyone I’ve ever met who supports a minimum wage holds that position, too.
Since wages in turn contribute to costs and if minimum wage should be related to these costs, then they will perpetually spiral each other up.
 
Another problem if a minimum wage is higher than the value of the services, it creates ‘off the books’ employment. We have a serious issue here in Oregon with all the illegals taking these lower skill jobs because they ARE willing to do them for less than the market will bear…partly because they pay no taxes! What a concept! So in effect as I believe Vern has pointed out, the poor or poorly skilled worker is the one who suffers.

I am involved in a hobby where illegals are basically doing the unskilled work and paid cash under the table. Same with agriculture, nurseries, landscaping, etc etc etc. It’s a serious problem.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Oregon has a higher minimum wage than the national…and we have had the highest (or occasionally second) unemployment in the country. It’s been the highest in the nation for years. Washington also has a higher minimum wage and they tend to be right behind us in unemployment Connect the dots. We also have a HUGE influx of illegals who are working under the table for less than the mandated minimum. Connect the dots. It’s not hard to figure out what’s happening here.

Ironically we supposedly have both the highest rate of hunger and the highest rate of obesity in the country. Go figure. I’m starting to think about lies, da**ed lies and statistics. I think that about sums it up.

Lisa N
Well, okay, but that makes a bit of sense. The problem is, that if you take that to an extreme, we could pay what they’re paying in China, because that’s where the jobs are going. Business has a place at the table, but if they’re allowed to call all the shots, we’re essentially back to the world of Dickens, including the need to wear black in the cities because of the pervasiveness of the dirt.

The high rate of obesity and hunger going together are not hard to believe. Hunger in Oregon is defined based on days a person does without or with less, and not on calories consumed over the course of the year. Diabetes, heart disease, and other diseases of over-consumption and under-nutrition are rampant in the lower economic groups. Fats are cheap foods, and cooking healthy foods is much more expensive, particularly if you don’t know what you’re doing or have less time. Those with less education are more likely to sucker into advertising, which also is heavily weighted in favor of choices that are bad both for the body and the bank account. That means you don’t save, which primes you for that month (or months) when the paycheck just can’t cover it all.
vern humphrey:
The minimum wage concept is based on an elitist concept – that many people can NEVER learn or gain skills that will be worth enough to support them. That, of course, is false.
…
So the minimum wage ought to be equal to the value added by that labor? If that were true, there would be no need for the government to dictate a minimum wage.
You are not implying that market forces can be relied upon to lead to a fair wage… that employers, given the option of paying people less than they can live on, would refuse to do it? That they give people what their labor adds to the product, rather than the minimum that a decent worker will take? Tell that to Charles Dickens, or Frank McCourt. Or the sharecroppers. Or Harvard Business School, for that matter.

You are such a student of history. That you could make a statement that would so obviously fly in the face of it astonishes me. I have to be misunderstanding you, here, Mr. Humphrey.
vern humphrey:
If you REALLY care for the poor, why aren’t you campaigning for better schools in the poorest district? Why aren’t you pushing your diocese to expand Catholic schools for the benefit of the poor?
Who says we aren’t? That is a great idea, but we’re supposed to stay on topic. Besides, Mother Theresa pointed out that it is the slow students who are truly the poorest of the poor. Some of us didn’t get as much as others when God gave out talent. Those of us who are slow need to eat, too.

The fact remains that we have work that needs to be done that doesn’t take a lot of skill. We don’t have enough high school students to do it all. We could send everybody to college, and we’d just have the weakest of the college graduates in low-wage jobs. Or maybe we’d all be talented college grads in high information jobs, living on the labor of poor workers in other countries that we don’t trouble ourselves about. That won’t wash, either. We are Catholics, so our obligations don’t end at our borders.

Looking for ways to bring higher-wage jobs into a state is a great idea. If you don’t do it, you are almost certainly going to squander talent and force talented people to move to where there are jobs were talent is compensated. Losing those people or the businesses that employ them* is* going to be a huge blow to the poor. Still, a person with little talent but with the willingness to work needs to be protected from those who would prey on their desparation.

Any economic plan which penalizes either sloth or avarice, but not both, will never produce a just society. The problem is in striking a balance between the responsibilites of people for themselves to make choices that they’re going to have to live with and the responsibilites of the greater society to reward merit while keeping the greedy ones among the strong from literally preying on the weak.

In other words, a just society requires that those who succeed and those with power also collectively have wise and generous hearts. If you can’t hope to have that, throw the towel in.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
Well, okay, but that makes a bit of sense. The problem is, that if you take that to an extreme, we could pay what they’re paying in China, because that’s where the jobs are going. Business has a place at the table, but if they’re allowed to call all the shots, we’re essentially back to the world of Dickens, including the need to wear black in the cities because of the pervasiveness of the dirt.
You seem to take the position that “business” and businessmen are somehow of a different species than the rest of us and HAVE to create jobs.

By overpricing our labor, we have SENT jobs to China and Mexico. By failing to educate the children of the poor, we have created generation after generation of children doomed to poverty.
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BLB_Oregon:
You are not implying that market forces can be relied upon to lead to a fair wage… that employers, given the option of paying people less than they can live on, would refuse to do it?
A thing is worth what a willing buyer will offer and a willing seller will accept. By artificially increasing the price of labor, you drive out jobs.

By failing to educate the children of the poor, you guarentee they will always be poor.
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BLB_Oregon:
That they give people what their labor adds to the product, rather than the minimum that a decent worker will take? Tell that to Charles Dickens, or Frank McCourt. Or the sharecroppers. Or Harvard Business School, for that matter.
You tell them. After all, it’s YOUR theory that somehow we can overprice jobs AND keep them.
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BLB_Oregon:
You are such a student of history. That you could make a statement that would so obviously fly in the face of it astonishes me. I have to be misunderstanding you, here, Mr. Humphrey.
What history is that?
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BLB_Oregon:
Who says we aren’t? That is a great idea, but we’re supposed to stay on topic. Besides, Mother Theresa pointed out that it is the slow students who are truly the poorest of the poor. Some of us didn’t get as much as others when God gave out talent. Those of us who are slow need to eat, too.
So you’re saying that the failure to provide education proves the uneducated are “slow?” That they DESERVE to be uneducated?
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BLB_Oregon:
The fact remains that we have work that needs to be done that doesn’t take a lot of skill.
And that justifies our bad education system? That makes it okay to have good schools in affluent suburbs, and bad schools in the poorest areas?
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BLB_Oregon:
We don’t have enough high school students to do it all. We could send everybody to college, and we’d just have the weakest of the college graduates in low-wage jobs. Or maybe we’d all be talented college grads in high information jobs, living on the labor of poor workers in other countries that we don’t trouble ourselves about. That won’t wash, either. We are Catholics, so our obligations don’t end at our borders.
Apparently you feel your obligations end outside your school district. I don’t see you clamoring for better education for the poor – in fact, I see you offering justifications for NOT educating them. Like this:
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BLB_Oregon:
The fact remains that we have work that needs to be done that doesn’t take a lot of skill.
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BLB_Oregon:
Looking for ways to bring higher-wage jobs into a state is a great idea. If you don’t do it, you are almost certainly going to squander talent and force talented people to move to where there are jobs were talent is compensated. Losing those people or the businesses that employ them* is* going to be a huge blow to the poor. Still, a person with little talent but with the willingness to work needs to be protected from those who would prey on their desparation.
And you do that by not educating him and driving out the only jobs he’s qualified for?
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BLB_Oregon:
Any economic plan which penalizes either sloth or avarice, but not both, will never produce a just society. The problem is in striking a balance between the responsibilites of people for themselves to make choices that they’re going to have to live with and the responsibilites of the greater society to reward merit while keeping the greedy ones among the strong from literally preying on the weak.

In other words, a just society requires that those who succeed and those with power also collectively have wise and generous hearts. If you can’t hope to have that, throw the towel in.
A just society requires people who are willing to do what WORKS and not blindly sell their souls to a failed ideology. That’s the lesson of the former Soviet Union.

Drop your fascination with a command economy and put your efforts into improving the education system.
 
vern humphrey:
You seem to take the position that “business” and businessmen are somehow of a different species than the rest of us and HAVE to create jobs.

By overpricing our labor, we have SENT jobs to China and Mexico. By failing to educate the children of the poor, we have created generation after generation of children doomed to poverty.

A thing is worth what a willing buyer will offer and a willing seller will accept. By artificially increasing the price of labor, you drive out jobs.
…
Drop your fascination with a command economy and put your efforts into improving the education system.
An improved education system won’t mop the floors, won’t empty the trash cans, won’t clean the toilets, won’t peel the potatoes, won’t pick the produce, won’t change the diapers… you fill in the blanks. You may argue that a machine may do all that one day, or that the good jobs will allow all the families to be single-wage-earner so that somebody can stay home and do half of that. Until that day comes, there is way too much for the high school kids to do.

I’m not saying that business owners are a different breed, but I am saying that some of them are of the same cloth as Ebeneezer Scrooge. I don’t think we’re entitled to wait until the ghosts of Christmas show up to wake these people up.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
Well, okay, but that makes a bit of sense. The problem is, that if you take that to an extreme, we could pay what they’re paying in China, because that’s where the jobs are going
Except that if an employer DID offer what they’d pay in China, he’d lose employees to other employers who agreed to pay more. Employers need employees as much or more than employees need employers. Speaking as both I assure you that good people are hard to find and worth what we pay them. Unless we become literally overrun with qualified employees, competition works both ways. Have you ever heard the saying “If you pay peanuts only monkeys will work for you.”

The issue is whether the minimum wage is pegged at more than the perceived value of the service. So if the state minimum is $7.15 (Oregon as I recall) but the value of that service is closer to the national level ($5.15 right?) then what happens? You get people working under the radar screens or using the “Wal Mart” method where they claimed the people were contractors and thus tried to bag out on paying either minimum wage or the related taxes. While Wal Mart got caught, trust me, there are thousands of small employers doing the exact same thing and getting away with it. It’s very very easy.
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BLB_Oregon:
. Business has a place at the table, but if they’re allowed to call all the shots, we’re essentially back to the world of Dickens, including the need to wear black in the cities because of the pervasiveness of the dirt.
Frankly I think things have changed a bit since Dickens’ day and while there are some really gross jobs out there the majority of low paying jobs today are really not in extreme working conditions. Being a janitor in a downtown highrise is not exactly the same as the salt mines. Flipping burgers or working a Wal Mart isn’t fun or well paying but the conditions are really not that bad.
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BLB_Oregon:
.The high rate of obesity and hunger going together are not hard to believe. Hunger in Oregon is defined based on days a person does without or with less, and not on calories consumed over the course of the year. Diabetes, heart disease, and other diseases of over-consumption and under-nutrition are rampant in the lower economic groups. Fats are cheap foods, and cooking healthy foods is much more expensive, particularly if you don’t know what you’re doing or have less time.
Actually that is not correct. Unfortunately the poor nutrition is often a result of buying processed foods, snack foods, high fat, high salt and high calorie items. They are NOT cheap. What they are is tasty and easy, both of which characteristics appeal to the undiscriminating consumer.

I am very cheap with my food budget. I eat things that are simple, that need to be cooked and are not oversalted, over processed or not nutritious. If we could convince Mrs Size 22 that it would be not only more healthy but less expensive to eat Oatmeal (you know the kind you boil that doesn’t have sugar on it) than CocoPuffs or Lucky Charms she would not only be healthier but would probably lose weight and cut her budget.

From volunteering in the homeless shelter that ironically often hosted extremely obese women, I learned that the majority of them don’t know how to shop, cook or determine the nutrition in food. They don’t know what is a protein, a carbohydrate or why you need either of them. I don’t know if Home Ec is no longer taught in school or if Health Class no longer teaches nutrition. I learned most of this in middle school. I suspect Vern is right, it gets back to education.

But people are often fat because they simply don’t know enough about proper nutrition and lets face it Chips Ahoy is tastier than green beans

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Actually that is not correct. Unfortunately the poor nutrition is often a result of buying processed foods, snack foods, high fat, high salt and high calorie items. They are NOT cheap. What they are is tasty and easy, both of which characteristics appeal to the undiscriminating consumer.
…
From volunteering in the homeless shelter that ironically often hosted extremely obese women, I learned that the majority of them don’t know how to shop, cook or determine the nutrition in food. They don’t know what is a protein, a carbohydrate or why you need either of them. I don’t know if Home Ec is no longer taught in school or if Health Class no longer teaches nutrition. I learned most of this in middle school. I suspect Vern is right, it gets back to education.

But people are often fat because they simply don’t know enough about proper nutrition and lets face it Chips Ahoy is tastier than green beans
If you or vern humphrey are arguing in favor of making both home ec and home finance (including assessing advertisement) more important and rigorous in the high school curriculum, you won’t find any argument from me. I believe in higher education, but having high school students who all know how to feed themselves on a modest paycheck is something that everyone can use, whether they wind up sweeping floors or doing a surgery residency. How ironic that it was only taught back when more people actually knew how to do it!

Still… a minimum wage job puts even a frugal worker very close to financial disaster. What do I think we need? Public transportation that means that low-income people can get by without cars, or car insurance. Education that insures that all will have some idea how to squeeze a living out of a meager paycheck. Widespread admiration for frugality and nothing more than tolerance for conspicuous consumption. Health care that doesn’t put them one allergic reaction or one bowel obstruction away from personal bankruptcy. Credit that is aimed at the credit-worthy, instead of the credit-susceptible. The list could go on and on… and please don’t flame me, because I don’t believe a government exists that could do this. No government is ever going to deliver up a just society. That requires the inclination of ears and hearts to God.

The set-point of the minimum wage (and there should be one, because Ebeneezer Scrooge still lives, even if you don’t believe he’s running WalMart) depends on all these other factors. A person making the minimum wage needn’t be entitled to dreams of a Hawaiian vacation, but they should be able to sleep at night. Mercy from heaven and damn the economics, they ought to all have at least that.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
An improved education system won’t mop the floors, won’t empty the trash cans, won’t clean the toilets, won’t peel the potatoes, won’t pick the produce, won’t change the diapers…
And some people are only good enough to mop the floors, empty the trash cans, clean the toilets, peel the potatoes, pick the produce, and change the diapers, right? Give them an education and they’ll get to thinking they’re as good as everyone else.
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BLB_Oregon:
I’m not saying that business owners are a different breed, but I am saying that some of them are of the same cloth as Ebeneezer Scrooge. I don’t think we’re entitled to wait until the ghosts of Christmas show up to wake these people up.
Then why don’t YOU start a business and pay your workers more than their labor is worth?
 
A couple of thoughts BLB, one is that I think both financial literacy and “home ec” as well as basic nutrition should be taught in schools. I really do not understand the obsession with making sure kids have woo woo classes like diversity training, sex education focused on techniques, and other indoctrination in the absence of basic living skills that everyone needs. Frankly I’m appalled at the absolute ignorance of young people in basic nutrition, meal planning, and how to manage money. Regardless of where they end up, all people need to eat and manage what money they have.

Second the problem with overpricing the minimum wage is that it isn’t MEANT to be a living wage. It isn’t meant to be the career goal of even the less skilled worker. Minimum wage jobs by their very nature tend to be transitory and temporary. Or they did before we were innundated with thousands of illegals. We act like no one ever got their lawn mowed or dishes washed in restaurants before the influx of half of Mexico. I assume you are of the age to remember when teenagers did this kind of work. I did. I bet you did too. And I assure you I never intended to be a dishwasher, rye puller, lab janitor, or parts delivery driver forever. In fact one of the best incentives to do well in school was the thought of doing this kind of work for the rest of my life.

The current national minimum wage is certainly low but again how many people stay at that level permanently? Statistically speaking the vast majority of people who spend some time at the bottom 20% of the income scale move up the ladder. I used to work for $1.60 an hour. But it wasn’t going to be my career path.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
ASecond the problem with overpricing the minimum wage is that it isn’t MEANT to be a living wage. It isn’t meant to be the career goal of even the less skilled worker. Minimum wage jobs by their very nature tend to be transitory and temporary.
Ah, but you see some people are only good enough to mop the floors, empty the trash cans, clean the toilets, peel the potatoes, pick the produce, and change the diapers.

Our liberal elite realize there must be a permanent underclass – and the system is rigged to create and maintain one.

That’s why the education system is so bad.
 
Lisa N:
Second the problem with overpricing the minimum wage is that it isn’t MEANT to be a living wage. It isn’t meant to be the career goal of even the less skilled worker. Minimum wage jobs by their very nature tend to be transitory and temporary. Or they did before we were innundated with thousands of illegals. We act like no one ever got their lawn mowed or dishes washed in restaurants before the influx of half of Mexico. I assume you are of the age to remember when teenagers did this kind of work. I did. I bet you did too. And I assure you I never intended to be a dishwasher, rye puller, lab janitor, or parts delivery driver forever. In fact one of the best incentives to do well in school was the thought of doing this kind of work for the rest of my life.

The current national minimum wage is certainly low but again how many people stay at that level permanently? Statistically speaking the vast majority of people who spend some time at the bottom 20% of the income scale move up the ladder. I used to work for $1.60 an hour. But it wasn’t going to be my career path.

Lisa N

Social mobility has actually been declining recently, and in some places reversing itself. In 2003 (the latest year I can find data for), the number of people in poverty increased by 1.3 million, and the rate has increased to 12.5% (page 9, census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p60-226.pdf).

You are right that the idea is not to keep people permanently in minimum wage jobs. However, if nothing is done to guard the bottom economic rung against wage erosion, it become that much harder for those at the bottom to find the time, energy, and resources to move on up to the next level. Our society benefits when more people are able to move more swiftly upward. Again, the minimum wage is not a silver bullet, but setting a floor seems important in helping promote upward mobility.

Regarding unemployment, the USCCB notes that (usccb.org/sdwp/national/minwage605.htm)
History clearly shows that raising the minimum wage has not negatively impacted the economy. In the four years after the last minimum wage increase passed, the economy experienced its strongest growth in over three decades. Nearly 11 million new jobs were added, at a pace of 232,000 per month. There were ten million new service industry jobs, including more than one and a half million retail jobs, of which nearly 600,000 were restaurant jobs.
Also, the issue of China (and by extension globalization in general) was raised. The answer is not to “race to the bottom” to match the labor standards of other countries, but to force them to rise to ours. In general, I support the movement to free trade, for instance NAFTA and the EU. HOWEVER, free trade often overlooks an vital component - labor. If capital is free to move about and entitled to legal protection, labor ought to be as well. It’s essential that free trade incorporate more vigorous requirements for worker protections and wage standards.
 
Philip P:
Social mobility has actually been declining recently, and in some places reversing itself. In 2003 (the latest year I can find data for), the number of people in poverty increased by 1.3 million, and the rate has increased to 12.5% (page 9, [census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p60-226.pdf.)](http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p60-226.pdf)).
And a brass band played, “Whoda Thunkit.”

When you have a system dedicated to pricing the poor out of basic entry level jobs on the one hand, and failing to provide quality education for children in poor areas, what do you expect?
Philip P:
You are right that the idea is not to keep people permanently in minimum wage jobs. However, if nothing is done to guard the bottom economic rung against wage erosion, it become that much harder for those at the bottom to find the time, energy, and resources to move on up to the next level. Our society benefits when more people are able to move more swiftly upward. Again, the minimum wage is not a silver bullet, but setting a floor seems important in helping promote upward mobility.
You can’t have upward mobility when entry-level jobs are choked and stifled by atificially inflating the cost to the employer. Nor can you have much upward mobility when the children of the poor are trapped in inadequate school systems.
Philip P:
Also, the issue of China (and by extension globalization in general) was raised. The answer is not to “race to the bottom” to match the labor standards of other countries, but to force them to rise to ours. In general, I support the movement to free trade, for instance NAFTA and the EU. HOWEVER, free trade often overlooks an vital component - labor. If capital is free to move about and entitled to legal protection, labor ought to be as well. It’s essential that free trade incorporate more vigorous requirements for worker protections and wage standards.
Having slashed our own economic wrists, we proclaim that bleeding wrists are “normal” and demand other nations do likewise. And when they don’t, the band plays “Whoda Thunkit” again.
 
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