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jay29
Guest
Yep. In the Sacrament of Penance! That is where the Lord’s Mercy Dwells.
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seeker5133
Guest
Just how is Homosexuality intrinsically disordered or unnatural when it does occur in nature see attached article. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
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The_Scott
Guest
Animals also eat their young. That doesn’t mean we should.
You’re mixing up “natural law” with “law of nature.” They are not the same.
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seeker5133
Guest
Natural law is that which can be determined using rational thought and the obersavation of the world around you. No i am not confusing the two terms I am merely applying nature and reason to an area of contention.
And as for the rediculous comment about animals eating their young…I was mearly using it as a counter argument to the idea that same-sex attractions/actions are unnatural or disordered.
And as for the rediculous comment about animals eating their young…I was mearly using it as a counter argument to the idea that same-sex attractions/actions are unnatural or disordered.
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fix
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No person is objectively disordered. Some inclinations are objectively disordered. The inclination toward homosexuality is objectively disordered. Heterosexuality is not disordered. Only in these relativistic, effete times would anyone need to parse out in pedantic detail what is common sense and rational.
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fix
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Natural law is right reason. It is understanding Man’s natural end.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Because it’s all about ‘tolerence.’
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RollTide1987
Guest
And that’s where liberals get those who are not in favor of gay marriage. I’m sorry if there are those of liberal leanings on this message board as I do not mean to lump all of you together, but I have seen this tactic play out time and time again. If you do not support gay marriage then you are automatically intolerant and bigoted. As for me? I’m guilty as sin of trying to avoid homosexuals because I sometimes have a hard time separating the person from the sin. But there are many Catholics and other Christians out there who do not do this and I need to strive to better live by their example.Because it’s all about ‘tolerence.’
Bottom line…we need to somehow better communicate just what we believe. Jesus said to love all people, including sinners. We saw this in his ministry. He didn’t hang out with the righteous. He spent his time on earth hanging out with some of the biggest sinners in all of Judea. With this example in mind we need to love homosexuals just as we love all other people. But, at the same time, we need to point out the sinfulness of their lifestyle. It’s not a sin to be gay. It’s just a sin to act on those tendencies.
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markeverett49
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I’m sure others will point out the error here but I want to echo that consensus: “natural” as in “natural law” does NOT mean “occurs in nature.” In nature, one may observe one animal initiate intercourse with another without consent but it does not follow from this that it is “natural” for a man to rape a woman (or another man, for that matter) because “it does occur in nature.”
Humans are capable of moral thought and action----human actions may be assessed as moral or immoral—but this is not true of other species.
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Brendan
Guest
First of all, it’s a moral disorder, so animal activities have no bearing on that.
Secondly, ‘Ordered’ is a philosophic term. It refers to the end goal, what the end purpose of an act is.
Human sexuality is gear, or ordered towards reproduction. That is why sex exists.
Homosexual activities, by definition ( or intrinsically to use another term), do not achieve the end to which sex was created.
Therefore it is Intrinsically not ordered towards what it should be, It is intrinsically DIS-ordered.
And really, if we followed animal behavior as a moral guide, then when a man marries a divorced woman, he should be able to kill and eat the children of the previous husband, because that’s what lions do in nature
Yet I think we can all agree that a man who tries that is attempting a morally disordered act. The actions of such a man are not ordered towards what fatherhood, even adopted fatherhood is designed to be.
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The_Bucket
Guest
How often do we have to ring that bell though? The world is quite aware that the Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful. Most people know that the Church teaches that contraception is sinful as well. How often do we have to hit people over the head with it?
More effective perhaps that we do what John the Baptist did and Christ did as well. Teach about repentance. Deep down we all know we have things to repent about. Declare the need for repentance and if you are called to account for yourself, declared that you are among the wicked as well. Announce God’s mercy, love and healing power.
Self-delusion only runs so far. Try as we might to convince ourselves that we’re generally good people, most of us are aware that we need forgiveness. I think Pope Francis follows the saint’s example quite well. You didn’t see St. Francis giving scathing denunciations of the extravagance around him. Instead he preached the virtue of poverty by living it.
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markeverett49
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RollTide1987
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The problem with secularists and the debate over contraception is the vast majority of people think of sex as nothing more than a pleasurable pursuit. This is nothing new though. A majority of people have thought this way since biblical times. What has magnified this belief has been the rise of secularism since the Age of the Enlightenment. How many people turn to the Church for advice on morals anymore? Very few. But how can we change that? I am just as guilty as these secularists because I have also engaged in sexual relations outside of marriage with contraception. But I was able to find my way back to Christ and the Church just recently. How many others are as fortunate as I am in this regard?
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The_Bucket
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Does the number matter? The Good Shepherd would leave 99 sheep in order to find the lone one that is lost. The Lord desires that all souls come to Him. But He does not weep and cry out in lamentations for those who reject Him. He instead loves them and leaves the door open at all times… and rejoices in those who do come back.
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RACJ
Guest
That is the Christian way, but for some extremists, the only acceptable position on homosexuality is for everyone to fully embrace the lifestyle as the moral equivalent of heterosexuality. And that isn’t happening, nor should it.Thank you!
“Hate the sin, but love the sinner.”
Rob
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DLG123
Guest
I may be wrong… But I believe that God calls homosexuality an Abomination…
Why would someone want to worship and trust a God that has labeled them objectively disordered?
Again I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure about it
DLG
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JimG
Guest
A Catholic with a homosexual orientation is in somewhat the same position as a person in an invalid second marriage.
I had an aunt who was in that situation for many years—decades, in fact. She married very young to a guy who abandoned her after a few months. Later she met and married a kind and gentle man who was a good provider and a good husband. I asked her once why she did not seek a declaration of nullity of the first marriage. She said that she did, but it was denied.
Now, in her diocese, and in those ancient days, declarations of nullity were rare. I suggested (years later) that she should try again, but she did not. She accepted the first decision, continued to go to Mass every Sunday without fail, was active in her parish, but did not receive communion. Her pastor fully understood her situation.
Much later, when her husband became unable to have marital relations in his old age, she went to confession and started receiving communion again.
But we’re all in the same boat. We can and do continue to attend Mass, even if we perceive ourselves to be in a state of mortal sin. We just don’t receive communion. We don’t desert the Church, and it doesn’t desert us just because we have fallen short.
I know another lady who is so scrupulous that she refuses to receive communion unless she has gone to confession one or two days prior. I suspect that her fears are groundless; still I respect her conscience.
The Church is full of sinners. We just can’t expect the Church to formally approve our sin instead of urging us to repentance and forgiveness.
I had an aunt who was in that situation for many years—decades, in fact. She married very young to a guy who abandoned her after a few months. Later she met and married a kind and gentle man who was a good provider and a good husband. I asked her once why she did not seek a declaration of nullity of the first marriage. She said that she did, but it was denied.
Now, in her diocese, and in those ancient days, declarations of nullity were rare. I suggested (years later) that she should try again, but she did not. She accepted the first decision, continued to go to Mass every Sunday without fail, was active in her parish, but did not receive communion. Her pastor fully understood her situation.
Much later, when her husband became unable to have marital relations in his old age, she went to confession and started receiving communion again.
But we’re all in the same boat. We can and do continue to attend Mass, even if we perceive ourselves to be in a state of mortal sin. We just don’t receive communion. We don’t desert the Church, and it doesn’t desert us just because we have fallen short.
I know another lady who is so scrupulous that she refuses to receive communion unless she has gone to confession one or two days prior. I suspect that her fears are groundless; still I respect her conscience.
The Church is full of sinners. We just can’t expect the Church to formally approve our sin instead of urging us to repentance and forgiveness.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
Excellent clarification.
However, I have a bone to pick your comment
.The suggestion made is
It is, therefore, probably wise to avoid wherever possible using the words “homosexual” and “heterosexual” as nouns since such usage implies a fixed state and an equivalence between the natural state of man and woman as created by God and persons experiencing same sex attractions or behaviors.
Cardinal Ratzinger used “homosexual persons” with “homosexual” as a descriptive, an adjective, to the noun, which is “persons”. He was therefore putting into focus the person, his/her dignity as a human, and not his sexual inclination or attraction to a member of the same sex.
Our Pope Emeritus is not only a linguist but a master in conjugation of sentences.
,
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Edward_H
Guest
True happiness…not veneer, emotional happiness is instead Beatitude. You can’t reach beatitude if you live in a way that is against God’s will, expressed through the design of our bodies.
I will add to, about the comment on happiness that the only way to happiness is thru marriage between one man and one woman.
I know plenty of gay couples, and they are happy. So not sure how that thought reflects the reality many gay couples experience in all honesty.
To love someone means you treat their true good (not our make believe good) as your own.
Cardinal Dolan…if you actually read his full interview…is telling gays that the Church loves them more than they love each other, going beyond the emotional, cheap love that now passes for "love’ in our culture.
Real love is far far more…and the good Cardinal is doing a great job in reminding us of that greater love.
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The_Bucket
Guest
This of course is the crux of the matter. Telling people that they are sinners is not exactly an easy thing for us to do. Everyone wants approval. Or at least they think they do. What everyone really wants is love and love is not the same thing as approval.
What’s sad about the world today is that more and more people are approving or at least condoning of what everyone does be it sinful or not, but there’s less love. Love is receding even as indifference and tolerance spreads. Those who may be inclined to be Christ’s love are thus trying harder and harder to distinguish their love from the world’s approval. And when they do that, they become insular and harsh. They try too hard to show that they’re not approving but they’re still loving… and in doing so their love starts to recede as well.
I don’t think anyone would argue that Pope Francis is somehow going to try and change doctrine. And yet he is nevertheless repeatedly showing love to those who do not believe in it or even reject it.
If your message of love does not get through the first time, simply repeat it. Repeat it every day. Repeat it every day with a smile on your face. Do not feel like you need to defend, defend, defend. Go on the offense. Go on the attack with love. Love will defeat the secular virtue of “tolerance” and indifference any day.
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