Dolan: Catholic Church needs better outreach to gays

[Corki]

I stated that the condition is disordered when the married heterosexual person has sexual desires for someone who is not his wife.

But it’s not. Heterosexual attraction is not disordered. Many men have (hopefully passing) feelings of attraction for women who are not their wives. It’s perfectly natural and correctly ordered. It’s what he does with those feelings that makes it sinful or not.

But homosexual attractions are disordered. That’s not the same as being sinful. It simply means that they are not reflections of a rightly ordered sexuality.

Are you suggesting that we make sure to avoid telling blind people that being blind is not normal? I’m all for being sensitive to these things, but it seems to me that it would be difficult to move forward in the evangelization of convincing homosexual persons to not pursue their disordered desires if we say they are not in fact disordered…perhaps it could be worded to sound less offensive, but someone who desires something that is not natural is disordered would you not agree

I am saying the exact opposite of what you inferred that I said. Being blind is a disorder but we don’t call blind people disordered. We say thier lack of vision is a disorder. It’s the same with homosexuality. The **people **are not disordered, it is their sexuality that is disordered.

People are never disorded. They are imperfect and some of those imperfections are harder than others.

 

[poker10]

I may be wrong… But I believe that God calls homosexuality an Abomination…

Again I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure about it

DLG

Yes, along with lying, cross-dressing and eating lobsters, crab and pigs.

 

[estesbob]

Yes, along with lying, cross-dressing and eating lobsters, crab and pigs.

Only if you ignore the New Testament

 

[CopticChristian]

Let me get this straight…it is NOT disordered to have sexual feelings for someone of the same sex?

That doesn’t sound right to me.

Styl,

I think you may be confusing sin (acting on a disordered desire) and a disordered desire (attraction to someone of the same sex).

The acts are disordered…

The inclination is objectively disordered insofar as to act on the inclination the act is disordered…

 

[Personanongrata]

Dolan was spot on, the Church really does. I mean, most gays I know dislike the Church. Not because they actually know it, but because they have listened to what others have said about it and assume it to be bigoted and what not. We need a better outreach to gays no doubt

I have many gay friends in committed relationships. I would NEVER try to get any of them involved in the Catholic church. Based on these forums alone, why would I do that to someone I cared about? Maybe, when-if things improve in the future, but definitely not now.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have many gay friends in committed relationships. I would NEVER try to get any of them involved in the Catholic church. Based on these forums alone, why would I do that to someone I cared about? Maybe, when-if things improve in the future, but definitely not now.

Nongratapersona,

Do you believe that homosexuals in commited relationships should heed the call to God, as God calls all?

What improvement is it you would expect the future to bring that would change what you would do now to what you would do then based on your suggested improvement?

 

[livnlern]

“With this decision I am not contradicting the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to human sexuality; I am not encouraging nor am I condoning homosexual activity just as I do not encourage or condone heterosexual activity at a dance.”
This is a little puzzling to me. Isn’t a dance a sort of courting activity? To the extent that it is, it is of course a heterosexual activity.

I agree with you. The priest feels compassion for the two boys that want to come to the dance together and he wants to show they can come as friends. But for most couples, going to a dance is going on a date. Since the kids are just in high school, they probably aren’t thinking about marrying each other, but dating is a precursor to marriage.
A very confusing message is being sent by allowing the two boys to come to the dance together. I’m sure the priest doesn’t see it that way, but I can guarantee that the kids will.

 

[CMatt25]

While there are Catholics who believe that a person’s simple identification of themselves as a homosexual is a sin, he’s not going to get very far.

He needs to do some preaching to the choir first. The things I’ve read even on this forum have sometimes made my hair stand on end in their judgementalism. I think a lot of people need to learn humility - from the top down. Following the example of our Holy Father in his simple and loving humility would be an excellent start.

this ^

 

[CMatt25]

Only if you ignore the New Testament

Actually there are many Christians today some in denominations who do not believe they ignore the NT but whose understanding of the NT is simply different than yours.

In any case the NT also says not to judge and to be concerned with our own eye planks and not to cast the first stones. Pope Francis actually spoke eloquently the other week about not casting the first stone and about how Jesus did not condemn the adulteress. And that even though Jesus told her to sin no more, Pope Francis said in about a month people do sin again. And even so ,still, Francis said, it is mercy that Jesus is all about.

 

[quiet52]

This is a very good point. To the extent that the rest of us are defending heterosexual only marriages, with a shallow understanding of what sex means for that marriage, then we end up defending from a shallow point.

We need to regain a proper understanding of what marital chastity is all about.

Google Catholic Jason Evert, a speaker on chastity.

Catholic Answers happens to sell one of his products, a DVD entitled “Life Giving Love- Understanding Chastity In Marriage”. It is jam-packed with information.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Actually there are many non-Catholic Christians today some in denominations who do not believe they ignore the NT but whose understanding of the NT is simply different than -]yours/-] that of the Roman Catholic Church

This is news?

As you have been told many times by the members of this forum, who merely echo the Church in this regard, we are not a religion of private interpretation of scripture. Second, we are not Sola Scriptura. Third, among academics in general, the most universally respected scripture scholars of all faiths share the view of the Catholic Church regarding the sexual mores continued in the NT from the OT, and the affirmation of the Mosaic Code by Jesus. (Additional, superfluous dietary and Sabbath laws were added by Jewish officials, and “enforced” especially by the Pharisees in a misguided effort to show an orthodoxy bordering on scrupulosity, due to their competition with the Levites for legitimacy. Those late additions to the Law are what Jesus opposed. However, it is not disputed that he reaffirmed the personal morality of the Mosaic Code, including the sexual dimensions.)

In any case the NT also says not to judge and to be concerned with our own eye planks and not to cast the first stones. Pope Francis actually spoke eloquently the other week about not casting the first stone and about how Jesus did not condemn the adulteress. And that even though Jesus told her to sin no more, Pope Francis said in about a month people do sin again.

No faithful Catholic contradicts that, including the part in blue, as long as you understand the meaning of the word “judge” as Jesus used it in context. He was not referring to evaluating the reality of sin/wrongdoing, and naming objective sins for what they were. He was referring to comparing one’s own state of spirituality with one’s neighbor’s state. However, if you think Pope Francis agrees with your interpretation of the NT and disagrees with what has been published by the Magisterium, you are, unfortunately, in error.

And even so ,still, Francis said, it is mercy that Jesus is all about.

Yep. And mercy is available to the repentant and those seeking to convert and change, not to the unrepentant. For each individual, mercy is predicated upon an awareness of the need for mercy and an acknowledgement of wrongdoing. Otherwise, mercy has no context and no meaning. Non-Catholic Christian scripture scholars also agree with this.

 

[quiet52]

I am wondering if there has been a call for a special outreach to blasphemers? Adulterers? Liars? Those who dishonor their parents?

I am so tired of this act getting “most favored sin” status. sigh

Rather than call homosexual behaviors “most favored sin status” as a reflection on us (who believe the behaviors are immoral), consider the persistence, volume and tone of their voices. Adulterers and liars etc. are not trying to redefine sin and to make the world conform to a very destructive lifestyle. They don’t seem to be accusing the Church of rejecting them; for the most part, belonging to the Church might be of irrelevance to them.

So many people pushing homosexual behaviors onto the world are demanding that it be viewed as normal and moral. Their agenda is to demand that the Church change for their sake by adapting to their terms of what “being accepted” means. It’s about them, not about what God wants.

The manipulative accusation “You don’t really love me because you’re not accepting me as I am” is getting so old.

As old as the workalcoholic’s accusation to his or her spouse: “You’re not accepting me as I am” when he works 14 hours a day and neglects the needs of his family. It’s all "her fault for not accepting him on his terms.

As old as the defiant teen’s accusion to her parent: “You’re not accepting me as I am” when she refuses to fulfill her responsibilities as a student or family member, plays loud or inappropriate music, acts disrespectfully, wears lip and eyebrow studs and gets tattooed against the wishes of her parents, and wants “life” to accommodate her on her terms. She assigns fault to the parents, for not allowing her judgment-free liberty and irresponsibility.

As old as the poledancing striptease artist’s accusation to her loved ones: “You’re not accepting me as I am,” ignoring their pleas that she consider safer and more dignified work.

As old as the person who thinks sex on demand is normal recreation and who believes contraception and abortion are moral, accusing anyone who disapproves: “You’re not accepting me as I am.”

Back to Cardinal Dolan’s thoughts about reaching out to people with same-sex attraction.

I wish he would ask every bishop to establish the Courage apostolate within their dioceses and on the campus of every Catholic university. I wish he would ask every bishop to require that the clergy TEACH about and promote marriage, and teach about the negative spiritual, social, mental health, and physical health consequences associated with any sexual activity outside of marriage. Catholics in general need to know how to articulate what we believe before we can effectively reach out in truth and in charity.

 

[Lucky7]

Let me get this straight…it is NOT disordered to have sexual feelings for someone of the same sex?

That doesn’t sound right to me.

I think you may be confusing sin (acting on a disordered desire) and a disordered desire (attraction to someone of the same sex).

Actually you are right. The Catechism states (Paragraph 2358):

*The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. *

 

[Lucky7]

Actually there are many Christians today some in denominations who do not believe they ignore the NT but whose understanding of the NT is simply different than yours.

In any case the NT also says not to judge and to be concerned with our own eye planks and not to cast the first stones. Pope Francis actually spoke eloquently the other week about not casting the first stone and about how Jesus did not condemn the adulteress. And that even though Jesus told her to sin no more, Pope Francis said in about a month people do sin again. And even so ,still, Francis said, it is mercy that Jesus is all about.

And this is why I believe Pope Francis needs to start talking about the “controversial” topics again/proclaim his orthodoxy loud and clear …soon.

 

[Lucky7]

The acts are disordered…

The inclination is objectively disordered insofar as to act on the inclination the act is disordered…

Um, what?

I think Styl was just pointing out that, yes, the inclination is also disordered…which is not what you/others were saying.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

And this is why I believe Pope Francis needs to start talking about the “controversial” topics again/proclaim his orthodoxy loud and clear …soon.

In that same homily he was speaking about sacramental confession and receiving forgiveness through confession. If you haven’t read/heard it I highly recommend that you do. It was a very orthodox message.

The news.va feed or the “pope app” carry the full texts of his homilies and messages (as the did for previous popes).

 

[fix]

Isn’t it common sense and rational to state that someone who has homosexual feelings is in fact a disordered person due to their inclination? Not sure why stating this is considered relativistic.

No.

 

[JackyB]

Rather than call homosexual behaviors “most favored sin status” as a reflection on us (who believe the behaviors are immoral), consider the persistence, volume and tone of their voices. Adulterers and liars etc. are not trying to redefine sin and to make the world conform to a very destructive lifestyle. They don’t seem to be accusing the Church of rejecting them; for the most part, belonging to the Church might be of irrelevance to them.

So many people pushing homosexual behaviors onto the world are demanding that it be viewed as normal and moral. Their agenda is to demand that the Church change for their sake by adapting to their terms of what “being accepted” means. It’s about them, not about what God wants.

The manipulative accusation “You don’t really love me because you’re not accepting me as I am” is getting so old.

As old as the workalcoholic’s accusation to his or her spouse: “You’re not accepting me as I am” when he works 14 hours a day and neglects the needs of his family. It’s all "her fault for not accepting him on his terms.

As old as the defiant teen’s accusion to her parent: “You’re not accepting me as I am” when she refuses to fulfill her responsibilities as a student or family member, plays loud or inappropriate music, acts disrespectfully, wears lip and eyebrow studs and gets tattooed against the wishes of her parents, and wants “life” to accommodate her on her terms. She assigns fault to the parents, for not allowing her judgment-free liberty and irresponsibility.

As old as the poledancing striptease artist’s accusation to her loved ones: “You’re not accepting me as I am,” ignoring their pleas that she consider safer and more dignified work.

As old as the person who thinks sex on demand is normal recreation and who believes contraception and abortion are moral, accusing anyone who disapproves: “You’re not accepting me as I am.”

Back to Cardinal Dolan’s thoughts about reaching out to people with same-sex attraction.

I wish he would ask every bishop to establish the Courage apostolate within their dioceses and on the campus of every Catholic university. I wish he would ask every bishop to require that the clergy TEACH about and promote marriage, and teach about the negative spiritual, social, mental health, and physical health consequences associated with any sexual activity outside of marriage. Catholics in general need to know how to articulate what we believe before we can effectively reach out in truth and in charity.

 

[fix]

“With this decision I am not contradicting the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to human sexuality; I am not encouraging nor am I condoning homosexual activity just as I do not encourage or condone heterosexual activity at a dance.”
This is a little puzzling to me. Isn’t a dance a sort of courting activity? To the extent that it is, it is of course a heterosexual activity.

It is more than just puzzling. It is not correct.

 

[fix]

Um, what?

I think Styl was just pointing out that, yes, the inclination is also disordered…which is not what you/others were saying.

The inclination toward same sex attraction is not ordered toward the good. That is a philosophical point. The person is not disordered. A person is not defined by their inclinations alone.