Dominican Sister of St. Cecilia under fire by students for talk on homosexuality

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Respectfully to all, it’s hard to look at so-called “neutral” websites such as that of the CDC that follow obviously, the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and just conclude that gays tend to be just like straights and often follow having monogamous relationships.

health.westchestergov.com/gay-a-bisexual-men/stds

cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm

And to be fair, other groups seem to be at risk as well.
*Researchers have seen alarming indications that gonorrhea may be on the rise among gay and bisexual men. In the mid 1980s, reports of increased condom use and reduced risky sexual practices accompanied dramatic decreases in rectal gonorrhea among gay and bisexual men in several cities. Yet, data from cities throughout the country suggest that this trend may be reversing and that gonorrhea cases may be resurging with the prospect of facilitating the spread of HIV in the gay community.

Forty two percent of the new HIV cases annually and 60 percent of all new HIV infections among men are occurring in gay and bisexual men. (Statistics from the CDC.)*

42% and 60%, from only 3-5% of the population. So the other 95-97% of the population accounts for 58% and 40%.
 
Grace & Peace!

This is a very interesting point, and it goes to something I’ve been thinking about for some time: that homosexuality is more and more being understood as a form of heresy, and the religious rhetoric surrounding it reflects that understanding. It’s not a new understanding. The old slur “bugger” comes from an Anglicization of the Old French “Bougre” which, while originally was simply the word for “Bulgarian” came to be used for Bogomil heretics. The idea behind its application to same-sex attracted folks is the old notion that such folks are “naturally” in the wrong, “naturally” other, and “naturally” traitors–to nature, to country, to God. Anyone who speaks of them in ways that depart from a normative set of tropes (even when those tropes do not address themselves to theology, moral or otherwise) is in danger of giving off a slight but noticeable odor of heresy, acutely detectable by folks who are more invested )for whatever reason) in hewing to the normative tropes.

I think this is because the larger issue at hand relates to the tension between what we believe and how we speak about what we believe: sometimes, as in discourse regarding homosexuality, these two things are conflated, which lends a heretical air to rhetoric that does not conform to a particular standard of “how we speak about what we believe.” And I think the reason why homosexuality is so fraught in this regard is related to those old notions of the homosexual as “natural” traitor and heretic.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Another thing of note is that if heterosexuals hadn’t debased marriage so that it is about “love” and if they hadn’t made it so that children were considered “optional” the concept of legalizing gay marriage would be inconceivable.

As a result of heterosexuals degrading celibacy, placing marriage on a pedestal by making it a criteria for society’s view of what is an adult it has provided much of the drive for gay people to pursue marriage. If (non-carnal) same sex love was still viewed as the highest love as it was in traditional Catholic theology then the concept of mandatory celibacy for gay people wouldn’t be so hard to bear.

Basically almost all of the “culture war” regarding LGBT people is the fault of heterosexuals.
 
Another thing of note is that if heterosexuals hadn’t debased marriage so that it is about “love” and if they hadn’t made it so that children were considered “optional” the concept of legalizing gay marriage would be inconceivable.

As a result of heterosexuals degrading celibacy, placing marriage on a pedestal by making it a criteria for society’s view of what is an adult it has provided much of the drive for gay people to pursue marriage. If (non-carnal) same sex love was still viewed as the highest love as it was in traditional Catholic theology then the concept of mandatory celibacy for gay people wouldn’t be so hard to bear.

Basically almost all of the “culture war” regarding LGBT people is the fault of heterosexuals.
Well, it certainly began with heterosexuals. That’s quite true. It was the acceptance of contraception that unlinked marriage from procreation and ultimately made same sex unions possible. It also unlinked children from marriage, making them an optional accessory, as you note. Had Paul VI foreseen the near future, his warnings might have been even more dire; although what he did predict has certainly been borne out.

But of course, the fact that heterosexuals began the dissolution of marriage is not a good reason for continuing its destruction.
 
I think there is a problem with the way the law has gone on this and on this topic, I’m not real familiar but the Courts doing such things as taking prayer out of school and no fault divorces.

So, yes, heterosexuals have definitely played their role but I think we also see how important following Christian precepts and principles are as well.
 
Actually I’m fully aware that 4 is the lifetime median for women.

One per six months isn’t exactly shagging everything that moves, also note that the average has been going down for a number of years which may have to do with fewer societal barriers to establish a permanent relationship.
Not in the shortterm. But when you start adding it up over a lifetime and get into the 100’s (which a considerable number of gay men reach) it does make you wonder if they how to say no.

Societal barriers may be something to do with it, but the stats are pretty consistent, even in gay friendly countries.
 
It was the acceptance of contraception that unlinked marriage from procreation
And that again was a consequence of making marriage primarily about a completely misinterpreted notion of love, instead of children and duty to family, society and not least the spouse, which again caused the modern culture of divorce when “love dies” in addition to the separation of childbirth and marriage.

This development goes back centuries, and is entirely caused by the heterosexual population. Which is why I dislike the current trend of putting the sole responsibility on the LGB movement, or at the very least downplay the role of how heterosexual marriage evolved (I’m not accusing you of this, just to be clear). It reminds me of the common tactic of certain countries; when faced by an internal enemy, put all blame on (or invent) an external one to distract from the internal issue.

Note that I’m not saying marriage out of love is bad and never existed - history is full of tales of it, and when they work well, they’re great. My parents married out of love like everyone else, and they are still together, even after going through things (illness, again causing other problems) that would trigger divorce in most families. I can’t thank them enough for giving me a stable childhood. But then they entered marriage with a determination to love each other until separated by death, not simply because they were “in love”. They are an exception to the vast majority of modern, heterosexual couples.

The introduction of gay civil unions is the logical continuation of this trend, and I think it is inevitable. Which is why I think it’s more important to focus on the qualities of Holy Matrimony than to fight civil gay unions. The Church does not recognize civil “marriage” between heterosexual couples either, so why should we really bother that much about its extension to same-sex couples? I really wish secular states wouldn’t name their civil unions “marriage”, and I think the best solution to this would be to remove the sexual component from the legal framework as such, remove the word “marriage”, and allow anyone to enter into such a union. If I lived with my sister in celibacy as was common in older times (which I wouldn’t want, this is just an example), the legal rights coming with such a union would certainly be fortunate. The same could be true for priests in some situations.

To be honest, I’m not sure we can go back without a societal collapse. Whether that collapse will ever occur, remains to be seen. I see it as possible but not guaranteed; and if it happens, I think it will be due to abortion, first and foremost. But we’ll see.
 
Not in the shortterm. But when you start adding it up over a lifetime and get into the 100’s (which a considerable number of gay men reach) it does make you wonder if they how to say no.

Societal barriers may be something to do with it, but the stats are pretty consistent, even in gay friendly countries.
Actually the numbers of same sex partners has been going down for many years and the number of opposite sex partners has been going up.
 
And that again was a consequence of making marriage primarily about a completely misinterpreted notion of love, instead of children and duty to family, society and not least the spouse, which again caused the modern culture of divorce when “love dies” in addition to the separation of childbirth and marriage.

This development goes back centuries, and is entirely caused by the heterosexual population. Which is why I dislike the current trend of putting the sole responsibility on the LGB movement, or at the very least downplay the role of how heterosexual marriage evolved (I’m not accusing you of this, just to be clear). It reminds me of the common tactic of certain countries; when faced by an internal enemy, put all blame on (or invent) an external one to distract from the internal issue.

Note that I’m not saying marriage out of love is bad and never existed - history is full of tales of it, and when they work well, they’re great. My parents married out of love like everyone else, and they are still together, even after going through things (illness, again causing other problems) that would trigger divorce in most families. I can’t thank them enough for giving me a stable childhood. But then they entered marriage with a determination to love each other until separated by death, not simply because they were “in love”. They are an exception to the vast majority of modern, heterosexual couples.

The introduction of gay civil unions is the logical continuation of this trend, and I think it is inevitable. Which is why I think it’s more important to focus on the qualities of Holy Matrimony than to fight civil gay unions**. The Church does not recognize civil “marriage” between heterosexual couples either, so why should we really bother that much about its extension to same-sex couples?** I really wish secular states wouldn’t name their civil unions “marriage”, and I think the best solution to this would be to remove the sexual component from the legal framework as such, remove the word “marriage”, and allow anyone to enter into such a union. If I lived with my sister in celibacy as was common in older times (which I wouldn’t want, this is just an example), the legal rights coming with such a union would certainly be fortunate. The same could be true for priests in some situations.

To be honest, I’m not sure we can go back without a societal collapse. Whether that collapse will ever occur, remains to be seen. I see it as possible but not guaranteed; and if it happens, I think it will be due to abortion, first and foremost. But we’ll see.
The Church does recognize civil marriages except in the case one or both were Catholic and married outside the Church without dispensation. But even that could be regularized whereas a s/s one could not be.

What do you mean by love when you say about marrying about love instead of children? I can’t see how you could agree to those vows without loving something, if love means ordered to the good of the other. Has Walt Disney taken over our understanding of love?
I could say I married my husband out of love. I would hope if it had been arranged I could say that too or it would be evident.
 
The Church does recognize civil marriages except in the case one or both were Catholic and married outside the Church without dispensation. But even that could be regularized whereas a s/s one could not be.

What do you mean by love when you say about marrying about love instead of children? I can’t see how you could agree to those vows without loving something, if love means ordered to the good of the other. Has Walt Disney taken over our understanding of love?
I could say I married my husband out of love. I would hope if it had been arranged I could say that too or it would be evident.
The concept of marrying for love as opposed to duty/property/children is only about 250 years old. Often people didn’t really know each other.
 
The concept of marrying for love as opposed to duty/property/children is only about 250 years old. Often people didn’t really know each other.
I know we had a similar conversation and it ended with me not having a definition of love from you.

I do see where that was a focus, maybe main, back then. But to say love was absent would be false in some circumstances when looking back on marriages especially those arranged, etc.
 
I know we had a similar conversation and it ended with me not having a definition of love from you.

I do see where that was a focus, maybe main, back then. But to say love was absent would be false in some circumstances when looking back on marriages especially those arranged, etc.
That’s because you didn’t tell me which love you wanted defining.

The concept of marrying over feelings was constantly ridiculed back then as opposed to marrying for family ties and property.
 
And that again was a consequence of making marriage primarily about a completely misinterpreted notion of love, instead of children and duty to family, society and not least the spouse, which again caused the modern culture of divorce when “love dies” in addition to the separation of childbirth and marriage.

This development goes back centuries, and is entirely caused by the heterosexual population. Which is why I dislike the current trend of putting the sole responsibility on the LGB movement, or at the very least downplay the role of how heterosexual marriage evolved (I’m not accusing you of this, just to be clear). It reminds me of the common tactic of certain countries; when faced by an internal enemy, put all blame on (or invent) an external one to distract from the internal issue.

Note that I’m not saying marriage out of love is bad and never existed - history is full of tales of it, and when they work well, they’re great. My parents married out of love like everyone else, and they are still together, even after going through things (illness, again causing other problems) that would trigger divorce in most families. I can’t thank them enough for giving me a stable childhood. But then they entered marriage with a determination to love each other until separated by death, not simply because they were “in love”. They are an exception to the vast majority of modern, heterosexual couples.

The introduction of gay civil unions is the logical continuation of this trend, and I think it is inevitable. Which is why I think it’s more important to focus on the qualities of Holy Matrimony than to fight civil gay unions. The Church does not recognize civil “marriage” between heterosexual couples either, so why should we really bother that much about its extension to same-sex couples? I really wish secular states wouldn’t name their civil unions “marriage”, and I think the best solution to this would be to remove the sexual component from the legal framework as such, remove the word “marriage”, and allow anyone to enter into such a union. If I lived with my sister in celibacy as was common in older times (which I wouldn’t want, this is just an example), the legal rights coming with such a union would certainly be fortunate. The same could be true for priests in some situations.

To be honest, I’m not sure we can go back without a societal collapse. Whether that collapse will ever occur, remains to be seen. I see it as possible but not guaranteed; and if it happens, I think it will be due to abortion, first and foremost. But we’ll see.
I agree with much of what you say here. It’s true that the beginning of the decline of the family predates the sexual revolution. Carle Zimmerman wrote a book about it in his book in the 1940’s (“Family and Civilization”) outlining how the decline of family leads to the decline of civilization.

I do think, though, that the destruction of marriage and family took a dramatic turn for the worse with the sexual revolution, which was enabled by the widespread acceptance of contraception (which until 1930 had been unanimously condemned by both Catholic and Protestant doctrine.)

You say that your parents “married out of love like everyone else,” but note that they also “entered marriage with a determination to love each other until separated by death, not simply because they were “in love.”" This was once pretty much the norm. Now, people seem to see marrying “for love” as somehow opposed to lifelong commitment. But the two aspects actually reinforce each other. Love grows stronger because one knows it to be permanent.

As to civil marriage, the Church actually does recognize most civil marriages—at least among non-Catholics who are not bound by Church law. It really treats all marriages as valid until proven otherwise. It takes an interest in civil marriage because civil marriage affects all of society. It may also affect our own religious liberty. In any case, all of this sexual dysfunction was begun chiefly by heterosexuals, as you and Joie de Vivre have noted, so blaming homosexuality for the results of the sexual revolution is sort of a reversal.

I tend to agree that we may not be able to go back without a societal collapse. Zimmerman predicts pretty much the same thing in his 1940’s book.
 
The concept of marrying for love as opposed to duty/property/children is only about 250 years old. Often people didn’t really know each other.
Uh, no. Ever hear of Shakespeare?

In the upper echelons of society, marriages for love were *somewhat *rare in the middle ages and the renaissance. But they were common in the rest of society.

Mind you, the idea was that you marry for love and then have children and stay married even if you stop feeling warm and cuddly. But it was still marriage for love – and love in the Walt Disney sense! :eek:

(As you might guess, I have no problem with Walt Disney love – eros – nor does John Paul II, for example. Eros is God’s way of making us desire marriage, and a wonderful way it is! But of course, eros must be accompanied by agape and familial affection, things that our society knows very little about.)
 
Uh, no. Ever hear of Shakespeare?

In the upper echelons of society, marriages for love were *somewhat *rare in the middle ages and the renaissance. But they were common in the rest of society.

Mind you, the idea was that you marry for love and then have children and stay married even if you stop feeling warm and cuddly. But it was still marriage for love – and love in the Walt Disney sense! :eek:

(As you might guess, I have no problem with Walt Disney love – eros – nor does John Paul II, for example. Eros is God’s way of making us desire marriage, and a wonderful way it is! But of course, eros must be accompanied by agape and familial affection, things that our society knows very little about.)
I do and I’ve read Chaucer, mostly those examples in Shakespeare were to be laughed at, just see how well it works out for Romeo and Juliet.
 
I do and I’ve read Chaucer, mostly those examples in Shakespeare were to be laughed at, just see how well it works out for Romeo and Juliet.
But it’s a tragedy. The fool in that play is not Romeo or Juliet but the Friar, who tries to get them married by stealth instead of standing up to the feuding families like a man. Clearly, the two young lovers have Shakespeare’s sympathy.

And I could list dozens of Shakespeare comedies where love is clearly an object of intense and sincere praise, and obviously connected to marriage. Pretty much all Elizabethan theater was pro-love; this was why the upper classes thumbed their noses at the theater.
 
Actually the numbers of same sex partners has been going down for many years and the number of opposite sex partners has been going up.
It is true that the numbers have been coming down, which is a good thing. Hopefully the number of STDs will come down with it. However, that doesn’t change the current state of their relationships.
 
Grace & Peace!
But it’s a tragedy. The fool in that play is not Romeo or Juliet but the Friar, who tries to get them married by stealth instead of standing up to the feuding families like a man. Clearly, the two young lovers have Shakespeare’s sympathy.

And I could list dozens of Shakespeare comedies where love is clearly an object of intense and sincere praise, and obviously connected to marriage. Pretty much all Elizabethan theater was pro-love; this was why the upper classes thumbed their noses at the theater.
The gist of Joie’s critique, though (and it’s one with which I agree), is that people in love couldn’t just do whatever they wanted: marriage was a social institution, bound by social rules regarding class, power, money, etc. A couple didn’t get married because they were in love and wanted to get married–they were married because that’s what was expected, needed or allowed by their families and by their social conditions. If they were in love before their marriage: terrific! If they weren’t, the hope was that love would grow. But whether or not there was romantic love in a marriage, the keynote of marriage was responsibility, not romance: responsibility to society, to family, to children, to spouse. Marriage was an outward-facing institution. It is now completely inward-facing.

Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy in a very Schopenhauerian sense: they thought they were free to do whatever they liked and suffered for it. But the structure of R&J is actually that of a classic marriage comedy–but as Schopenhauer tells us, the curtain must fall fast at the end of a comedy, otherwise we would see the will of the universe against which our protagonists fought crash with tremendous force on the characters of the play, brutally and violently crushing them all. R&J refuses to let the curtain fall when it should in order to be a comedy–we therefore see the universe come crashing down. At any rate, R&J may have been in love, but they were supremely irresponsible. The Friar may be a fool, but what he should have done when Romeo came to him was say, “NO.” That’s wherein his foolishness lies. But another real fool is in fact Romeo who, from the beginning of the play, is portrayed as a mere lovesick puppy, flirting with disaster even in his attraction to Rosaline who, like Juliet, is also a Capulet. Romeo and Juliet may have Shakespeare’s sympathy, but it would be difficult to argue that they have his approval.

Regardless, there was much in Renaissance drama and literature about love, romantic and otherwise, you’re absolutely right. But even the greatest example of Renaissance love, that between Dante and Beatrice, is not the love of husband and wife, and the many texts related to courtly love have as their ideal a Platonic notion of what being-in-love was supposed to be, and rarely did it involve a wife (or rather, if it did involve a wife, it was a pleasant surprise).

But as class barriers break down, power structures re-arrange themselves, and major social shifts occur in the 17th through 19th centuries (American revolution, French revolution, industrial revolution, the “Enlightenment,” the Age of Reason), romantic love and marriage become more and more entwined and marriage becomes more and more about the couple and not about the society in which the couple is embedded. This modern notion of marriage is pretty new as a practice (only about 250 years old, as Joie states), but you can see traces of it earlier. It wouldn’t be too hard to see it’s real beginnings in the end of the feudal era with the rise of the middle class, the beginnings of the Reformation, and the development of a notion of an individual self (see Pico della Mirandola and Luther) that is conceived of as at least potentially independent of (or even at odds with) the socio-cultural milieu in which it lives.

Also, the upper classes of Shakespeare’s day didn’t thumb their noses at the theater–many acting companies received patronage from a noble, a fact which was often reflected in the company’s name (i.e., The Lord Chamberlain’s Men). The ones who objected to the theater (and who succeeded in shutting it down for a bit in England) were the Puritans. With the Restoration of Charles II, theater came back with a vengeance…and at least in the person of John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester, the Puritans’ fears regarding the impropriety of the theater were proved to be absolutely on point (particularly if we believe the attribution of “Sodom, or The Quintessence of Debauchery” to him to be correct. I tend to, based on his flabbergastingly debauched poetry–the Marquis de Sade has little on the Earl with regard to shock value, though the Earl has a much more developed sense of humor which makes him that much easier to read).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
I’m wading my way through your response, Mark, but I had to immediately comment on this:
The Friar may be a fool, but what he should have done when Romeo came to him was say, “NO.” That’s wherein his foolishness lies.
That’s actually exactly what I meant. In enabling the two lovers to undermine the system, he set the system in motion against them. He could have – if he chose – opposed the system in a straightforward manner, but he chose stealth, and Romeo and Juliet died for his stealth.
 
*Researchers have seen alarming indications that gonorrhea may be on the rise among gay and bisexual men. In the mid 1980s, reports of increased condom use and reduced risky sexual practices accompanied dramatic decreases in rectal gonorrhea among gay and bisexual men in several cities. Yet, data from cities throughout the country suggest that this trend may be reversing and that gonorrhea cases may be resurging with the prospect of facilitating the spread of HIV in the gay community.

Forty two percent of the new HIV cases annually and 60 percent of all new HIV infections among men are occurring in gay and bisexual men.* (Statistics from the CDC.)

42% and 60%, from only 3-5% of the population. So the other 95-97% of the population accounts for 58% and 40%.
I don’t think anyone’s arguing against that sex between two men is more dangerous in general for STD transmission. I also don’t think anyone’s arguing against that gay men are more promiscuous than straight men due to higher combined libidos and no risk of pregnancy, not to mention a feeling of rejection from religion that leads them to feel there’s nothing immoral about premarital sex.

However, the claim people have made is that gay people have less stable relationships and polyamorous relationships, both claims of which are patently untrue. In fact, lesbians are extraordinarily monogamous and stable, at higher rates than straight couples. And if you bring up STD transmission, lesbians will bring up that they have the safest sex of anyone!

I’ll say it before and I’ll say it again. We need to stop focusing on incorrect, irrelevant falsehoods, stereotypes, and pejoratives and start focusing on Catholic teaching on the issue. You will never, ever, ever evangelize properly to a gay person by starting off with information they know is blatantly false.
 
I don’t think anyone’s arguing against that sex between two men is more dangerous in general for STD transmission. I also don’t think anyone’s arguing against that gay men are more promiscuous than straight men due to higher combined libidos and no risk of pregnancy, not to mention a feeling of rejection from religion that leads them to feel there’s nothing immoral about premarital sex.

However, the claim people have made is that gay people have less stable relationships and polyamorous relationships, both claims of which are patently untrue. In fact, lesbians are extraordinarily monogamous and stable, at higher rates than straight couples. ** And if you bring up STD transmission, lesbians will bring up that they have the safest sex of anyone!**

I’ll say it before and I’ll say it again. We need to stop focusing on incorrect, irrelevant falsehoods, stereotypes, and pejoratives and start focusing on Catholic teaching on the issue. You will never, ever, ever evangelize properly to a gay person by starting off with information they know is blatantly false.
In Rare Case, Woman with H.I.V. Infects Female Sex Partner
nytimes.com/2014/03/15/health/in-rare-case-woman-with-hiv-infects-female-sex-partner-cdc-says.html?_r=0

I think there is a time and a place for the stats. But I do believe that the Good News should be the focus.
 
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