Dominican Third Order?

[JReducation]

The jist of my comment wasn’t that the Franciscan body as a whole endorses charisamticism, but rather several members are known to engage in said practices. Steubinville, run by Franciscans, is well know for this.

My apologies if it seemed like I was generalizing

Franciscan University became very well known for it, because as I said, it saved the university’s Catholic identity. It was an amazing thing. When students saw the Charismatics at praise and worship, they began to realize that prayer was not something to be afraid of or embarrassed about. Different groups started to form. Today they have Praise and Worship, Rosary, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and the EF on the same campus. They have also attracted a nice group of very intelligent and orthodox theologians.

The contrast would be St. Bonaventure University in New York and St. Francis University in Loretto, PA. Both are very traditional in the form of worship and prayer life. Yet, both are also very Catholic.

Franciscan University was at a place where it desperately needed the Holy Spirit and Fr. Mike working together. The spiritual life on the campus was flat. Today, you can smell Catholicism when you walk onto the campus. When I visit there, I love to stand and watch the people passing. And in the midst of short, jeans, skirts, baggy pants, you suddenly spot a Franciscan habit. The friars are very visible.

Besides the three Franciscan schools the other places where you see religious is at St. Meinrad, run by Benedictines, Catholic University of America, run by the Vatican and at Providence, which is run by Dominican Friars. Those places smell Catholic. Yet, there are many non-Catholic students. Franciscans and Dominicans have always taught Catholics and non-Catholics.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t think Praise and Worship belongs to any particular religious family. I know that it has been used by Franciscans since the 13th century. It evolved, as all forms of prayer evolve. When the Evangelicals broke away from the Calvinists, they revived it it. Unlike the Franciscans of the 13th century for whom it was a personal form of prayer, not communal, for the Evangelical Protestants it became their communal form of prayer. That’s because they did not have a mass. They had scripture, praise and worship.

As I said, there are references to Francis and individual friars using this form of prayer. But there are no references to it being a communal form of prayer. This form of prayer was not Franciscan in origin. It existed in the early Church. Don’t ask me how it made it to the Middle Ages. I have no idea.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

We Franciscans have our own form of praise prayer, though. Here’s one:

All-powerful, most holy, most high and supreme God,
all good, supreme good, total good, you who alone are good:
we give you all praise, all glory, all thanks,
all honour, all blessing and every good.
So be it. So be it.

And you’ve probably heard this too, whole or excerpted for other things many times:

We adore you,
Lord Jesus Christ,
here and in all your
churches in the whole world,
and we bless you,
because by your holy cross
you have redeemed the world.

These are used by small groups of seculars together or by individuals, you are right, Br JR. They are not liturgical prayers.

…although, I have to tell you, there’s a line in one of the three responses of the congregation right after the consecration that reminds me of this last prayer every single time I hear it. It goes:

Save us, Savior of the world,
for by your Cross and Resurrection
you have set us free.

Not the same, but close enough to remind loosely-wired old me. This one is from the new translation of last November 27th.

 

[JReducation]

We Franciscans have our own form of praise prayer, though. Here’s one:

All-powerful, most holy, most high and supreme God,
all good, supreme good, total good, you who alone are good:
we give you all praise, all glory, all thanks,
all honour, all blessing and every good.
So be it. So be it.

And you’ve probably heard this too, whole or excerpted for other things many times:

We adore you,
Lord Jesus Christ,
here and in all your
churches in the whole world,
and we bless you,
because by your holy cross
you have redeemed the world.

These are used by small groups of seculars together or by individuals, you are right, Br JR. They are not liturgical prayers.

…although, I have to tell you, there’s a line in one of the three responses of the congregation right after the consecration that reminds me of this last prayer every single time I hear it. It goes:

Save us, Savior of the world,
for by your Cross and Resurrection
you have set us free.

Not the same, but close enough to remind loosely-wired old me.

Then there is the Canticle of Brother Son and Francis was known to have disconnected with his surrounding and be heard to moan and groan as he prayed or to sing and dance using two sticks as a violin.

Those prayers that you cited were actually composed after Francis had used them many times in different forms. Francis did not actually put them on paper. The friars did, so that they could hand them down. Francis just threw them out there very spontaneously.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

Then there is the Canticle of Brother Son and Francis was known to have disconnected with his surrounding and be heard to moan and groan as he prayed or to sing and dance using two sticks as a violin.

Those prayers that you cited were actually composed after Francis had used them many times in different forms. Francis did not actually put them on paper. The friars did, so that they could hand them down. Francis just threw them out there very spontaneously.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Yes, but didn’t he “dictate” a lot of things? People remembered the things he did and wrote down things he said. There are a number of accounts.

Hey, where are the lay Dominicans?

 

[JReducation]

Yes, but didn’t he “dictate” a lot of things? People remembered the things he did and wrote down things he said. There are a number of accounts.

Hey, where are the lay Dominicans?

Yes, for example, he dictated the Canticle of Brother Sun in two parts. He also wrote the Office of the Passion. There are some prayers that were passed down by oral tradition, some he wrote and some Br. Leo wrote as Francis could not see.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[jwinch2]

That’s where we differ. I love the OPs; Aquinas I can use as a reference. I cannot sit and read him as I would Catherine of Siena, Bonaventure, the Fathers. He drives me crazy. I’m with Pope Benedict on this one. The Pope and I agree. Aquinas is arid. Augustine and Bonaventure say the same things, but are very passionate.

It’s rather interesting, because the best professor that I had on Spiritual Theology was Jordan Aumann, OP. The man was absolutely passionate, while logical at the same time. Being boring is not a Dominican trait. It’s Aquinas who’s boring.

He’s an excellent resource . . . one of the best, if not the best in the Church’s history. But not spiritual reading material. :hypno:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

If you had to recommend one book on Bonaventure and one on Augustine which would provide what you needed to know about their take on theology to be in line with the Church, what would they be?

Peace,

 

[JReducation]

If you had to recommend one book on Bonaventure and one on Augustine which would provide what you needed to know about their take on theology to be in line with the Church, what would they be?

Peace,

Augustine: City of God

Bonavneture: The Itinerarium

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[jwinch2]

Augustine: City of God

Bonavneture: The Itinerarium

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Thanks.

Are those at the same level of the Concise Summa that you recommended regarding Aquinas?

 

[JReducation]

Thanks.

Are those at the same level of the Concise Summa that you recommended regarding Aquinas?

The Summa has been collated in an encyclopedic format. Unfortunately, the same has not been done with the writings of Bonaventure and Augustine. You have to read the works independently. But the sequence is very important. Otherwise, you end up all over the place.

These two works are the best place to begin, because they start with the nature of God and man, as does Aquinas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[jwinch2]

The Summa has been collated in an encyclopedic format. Unfortunately, the same has not been done with the writings of Bonaventure and Augustine. You have to read the works independently. But the sequence is very important. Otherwise, you end up all over the place.

These two works are the best place to begin, because they start with the nature of God and man, as does Aquinas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Thanks!

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand why there would be a charismatic aspect to the Benedictine Monastery in the first place.

The charismatic aspect refers to the prayer of the persons, not the structure of the Monastery. Charismatic gifts are expereinced by persons in all forms of prayer in any place and structure. St. Teresa was not seeking a “charismatic aspect” and was in a very structured order, but she had them anyway. Benedictines have experienced the charisms in a monastic setting. It is not that they were trying to structure the setting according to the expereince. On the contrary, the structure of the monastery is a good host for the manifestation of charismatic gifts.

The Charismatic tradition is a legitimate tradition in the Church, I am not disputing that. However, I have not seen anything which would even remotely suggest that it is legitimate part of Monastic tradition. I am relatively new, so perhaps there is something there which I am not aware of.

The experience of the charisms is a legitimate expression of the Holy Spirit regardless of what tradition. There is no reason to try to separate the work of the HS from monastic prayer forms.

 

[jwinch2]

I think we are referring to two separate things.

It is one thing to be open to the Holy Spirit while in a monastery and performing prayer according to the manner prescribed by St. Benedict and the Desert Fathers. I’m all for that. It is quite another to adopt a modern form of prayer which does not fall within that Tradition in that same monastery. By most accounts, the Charismatic movement took hold in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s.

Again, this is not a slam on the Charismatic movement. Its not my cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean that I do not support its existence. Multiple popes have endorsed it, and that is good enough for me. However, I have seen nothing at all which would suggest that the type of prayer and worship performed by Charismatics is a legitimate part of Benedictine Spirituality or Tradition.

If you have such evidence, I would be very interested in seeing it.

Peace,

 

[jwinch2]

The experience of the charisms is a legitimate expression of the Holy Spirit regardless of what tradition. There is no reason to try to separate the work of the HS from monastic prayer forms.

I think we are referring to two separate things.

It is one thing to be open to the Holy Spirit while in a monastery and performing prayer according to the manner prescribed by St. Benedict and the Desert Fathers. I’m all for that. It is quite another to adopt a modern form of prayer which does not fall within that Tradition in that same monastery. By most accounts, the Charismatic movement took hold in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s.

Again, this is not a slam on the Charismatic movement. Its not my cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean that I do not support its existence. Multiple popes have endorsed it, and that is good enough for me. However, I have seen nothing at all which would suggest that the type of prayer and worship performed by Charismatics is a legitimate part of Benedictine Spirituality or Tradition.

If you have such evidence, I would be very interested in seeing it.

Peace,

 

[guanophore]

I think we are referring to two separate things.

It is one thing to be open to the Holy Spirit while in a monastery and performing prayer according to the manner prescribed by St. Benedict and the Desert Fathers. I’m all for that. It is quite another to adopt a modern form of prayer which does not fall within that Tradition in that same monastery. By most accounts, the Charismatic movement took hold in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s.

Again, this is not a slam on the Charismatic movement. Its not my cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean that I do not support its existence. Multiple popes have endorsed it, and that is good enough for me. However, I have seen nothing at all which would suggest that the type of prayer and worship performed by Charismatics is a legitimate part of Benedictine Spirituality or Tradition.

If you have such evidence, I would be very interested in seeing it.

Peace,

I have been attached to a Charismatic Benedictine Monastery near where I live for 30 years. I can see how charismatic activity might impinge upon the Benedictine Tradition, but I have also seen that it need not. I am not sure what you might expect to “see” that would convince you they are not incompatible.

Perhaps your notion of “Charismatics” is so restricted you don’t think someone could be charismatic and still practice according to the Rule?

 

[jwinch2]

I have been attached to a Charismatic Benedictine Monastery near where I live for 30 years. I can see how charismatic activity might impinge upon the Benedictine Tradition, but I have also seen that it need not. I am not sure what you might expect to “see” that would convince you they are not incompatible.

Perhaps your notion of “Charismatics” is so restricted you don’t think someone could be charismatic and still practice according to the Rule?

I have had plenty of exposure to charismatic activity and the Charismatic Movement.

In addition, I have no doubt that it is being done. I do however question whether it should be done. I again respectfully ask for evidence that it is a legitimate part of Monastic Tradition or Benedictine Spirituality.

 

[guanophore]

I have had plenty of exposure to charismatic activity and the Charismatic Movement.

In addition, I have no doubt that it is being done. I do however question whether it should be done. I again respectfully ask for evidence that it is a legitimate part of Monastic Tradition or Benedictine Spirituality.

OIC, ok. What exactly is being done that is not congruent? This is the only Benedictine community I have known, so perhaps I don’t see any conflict because I don’t know where to look?

What is the “it” you are wondering about? What “activity and movement”?

 

[jwinch2]

OIC, ok. What exactly is being done that is not congruent? This is the only Benedictine community I have known, so perhaps I don’t see any conflict because I don’t know where to look?

What is the “it” you are wondering about? What “activity and movement”?

The it, I mentioned merely refers to the Charismatic Movement/Renewal being combined with Benedictine Spirituality. My point is that simply because someone is doing it, does not make it correct.

As for the rest, it’s a simple yes or no question. So, for the third time, do you have evidence or a source that the Charismatic Renewal has a legitimate place within Monastic Tradition or Benedictine Spirituality? If the answer is yes, I would sincerely appreciate a link or name of a source, etc. If the answer is no, just say so.

 

[guanophore]

The it, I mentioned merely refers to the Charismatic Movement/Renewal being combined with Benedictine Spirituality.

As for the rest, its a simple yes or no question. So, for the third time, do you have evidence or a source that the Charismatic Renewal has a legitimate place within Monastic Tradition or Benedictine Spirituality? If the answer is yes, I would sincerely appreciate a link or name of a source, etc. If the answer is no, just say so.

I am trying to understand your question, but I have not read this whole thread. If you have already defined what you meant by “movement/renewal” then I apologize.

What activities, exactly, are being conducted that you don’t think are appropriate?

 

[jwinch2]

I am trying to understand your question, but I have not read this whole thread. If you have already defined what you meant by “movement/renewal” then I apologize.

What activities, exactly, are being conducted that you don’t think are appropriate?

It doesn’t matter what activities. What matters is if there is anything in Benedictine or Monastic Tradition which suggests that the Charismatic renewal belongs within it.

 

[guanophore]

It doesn’t matter what activities. What matters is if there is anything in Benedictine or Monastic Tradition which suggests that the Charismatic renewal belongs within it.

Ok. Well, since I cannot see any conflict between the two, and I don’t know what is in your mind when you use the term “charismatic renewal” I am quite certain I could not produce any references that will satisfy you. I am sure we are in agreement that there have been many abuses in the so called charismatic movement that do not belong in the Monastery or the Mass. However, I can see nothing about these charismatic monks, nuns and oblates that is contrary to Monastic Traditions. I think the types of "activities’ are entirely relevant, because it is clear that many activities espoused by the “movement” are inappropriate no matter where they are found.