Dominican Third Order?

[Marauder]

i
. . . and by the way, how MANY different kinds of Franciscans are there?

As many as there are members of the Order Everyone has their own personality. But we are all one Brotherhood.

If you really want to know how many different “types” there are.

There are 1st Order Franciscans, made up of:

1. OFM
2. OFM Conventual
3. OFM Capuchin

There are 2nd Order Fransiscans, solely made up of Poor Clare (or derivations of the name Poor Clare.)

There are 3rd Order Franciscans, primarily consisting of:

1. Third Order Regular
2. Third Order Secular (Now known as the Secular Franciscan Order)

There are also Francsican Hermits.

Usually most Franciscans that you see, unless they are 1st Order friars tend to be a Third Order group of some type. You rarely see Poor Clare Nuns since they tend to be cloistered. Most Franciscan sisters that you see are actually some division of Third Order Regular. Most Francsican groups that you see, unless they have OFM in their name tend to be Third Order. The primary difference between First Order, Second Order, Third Order and hermits is that each group has its own Rule.

Note: This is a very simplified presentation of the groups, there are many nuances to this that are even hard for many Franciscans to understand, let alone people outside of the Franciscan charism.

 

[iloveangels]

iloveangels:

Interesting what you say about people being drawn to Franciscans because they like animals!

I had never imagined that possibility, but it makes some kind of sense!

. . . and by the way, how MANY different kinds of Franciscans are there?

THIS time of year, I’m looking at the yard and thinking it would be nice to put in a Dominic garden statue, but Francis totally OWNS that deal! So it goes.

You miss my point, Captain America,
Liking animals alone is NOT AT ALL a reason to become a Franciscan. Franciscans are also NOT AT ALL about birdbaths in gardens. Or anything else like that.

Being a Franciscan is about following the Gospels very closely and quite literally, according to the style of St. Francis. Now, a great many people have idealized St. Francis pretty severely and made him nothing more than something to hold up a birthbath, but that’s not who he really was. At all. Nothing close to it in fact.

Being an SFO is about conversion, fidelity, joy and fraternity. Just about everyone could benefit from really knowing something true about St. Francis, but not everyone has a vocation to the Franciscans. Many people don’t, in fact. It’s kind of “rough and ready” for a lot of people, who do better someplace else–regular parish life (which is a vocation of its own) or another third order.

 

[jwinch2]

I can only speak for my monastery, but they are such very holy men.
Things I love about “my” Benedictines:

1. Completely orthodox and in full communion with the Church
2. A stress on the Divine Office. We pray a Liturgy of the Hours PLUS, if you will. It has an extra Psalm (“stolen” from one of the day hours, usually) and a much longer Scripture reading. Took me a bit to get used to (I have been praying the “regular” LotH for almost 15 years), but I am now in love with this version.
3. Lectio Divina: getting my feet wet, but I can (at least some time) hear the Lord “speaking” to me (I don’t mean that I actually hear Him, or even that I am aware of words–I’d call it a gentle push in a certain direction upon reading scripture).
4. Our monk (in his early 80’s) travels 4 hours both ways to be with us a couple of times a year.
5. We visit the monastery 1-2 times yearly. Their Mass is** so** holy. I absolutely love it.
6. I correspond with the our Director fairly regularly. I honestly consider him my friend.

A note: I find that the Devil (I am pretty sure it’s him) really pours on the attacks of doubt as you near Profession. Pray and ask someone who’s advice you value (or even more than one person) to help you. Sometimes they know you better than you do.
Definitely bring your doubts to Our Lord Jesus in Adoration. He helped me.

Thanks for the response and for the suggestions, I will take your advice to be sure.

I got an e-mail back from the Oblate Director where I sent a message to yesterday. He invited me up for an Oblate retreat which is going on this weekend but with that little notice, there is no way I can make it happen. He also invited me to make a visit another time and to let him know about any questions as well as making some book recommendations for me that he will send soon.

This is the monastery I am looking into at the moment. Largely because it is close but I would be open to suggestions on that as well.

monksok.org/

Peace all,

Jason

 

[iloveangels]

As many as there are members of the Order Everyone has their own personality. But we are all one Brotherhood.

If you really want to know how many different “types” there are.

There are 1st Order Franciscans, made up of:

1. OFM
2. OFM Conventual
3. OFM Capuchin

There are 2nd Order Fransiscans, solely made up of Poor Clare (or derivations of the name Poor Clare.)

There are 3rd Order Franciscans, primarily consisting of:

1. Third Order Regular
2. Third Order Secular (Now known as the Secular Franciscan Order)

There are also Francsican Hermits.

Usually most Franciscans that you see, unless they are 1st Order friars tend to be a Third Order group of some type. You rarely see Poor Clare Nuns since they tend to be cloistered. Most Franciscan sisters that you see are actually some division of Third Order Regular. Most Francsican groups that you see, unless they have OFM in their name tend to be Third Order. The primary difference between First Order, Second Order, Third Order and hermits is that each group has its own Rule.

Note: This is a very simplified presentation of the groups, there are many nuances to this that are even hard for many Franciscans to understand, let alone people outside of the Franciscan charism.

Very well explained, Marauder.

There are also quite a few “Franciscan-flavored” groups that aren’t specifically Franciscan but look something like it, although their constitutions usually are “mixed” so that they have only some of the properties of the Franciscans and some properties from somewhere else. Examples: The Brothers and Sisters of Charity (John Michael Talbot’s group), the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, etc. Some Franciscan-like congregations of sisters are like this also.

Franciscans aren’t monastic. They’re also not clerical, meaning that the great majority of Franciscans aren’t ordained. We have large numbers of non-ordained brothers, and we have even larger numbers of non-ordained seculars. The American catholic mind sometimes has trouble with this concept because we’re so used to those in orders being ordained and doing parish work exclusively.

Being a Franciscan is about witness like all the true orders --“being” not so much “doing.” The “doing,” for a Franciscan comes out of the “being,” not the other way around, which is a strange idea for contemporary Americans.

 

[Captain_America]

Sorry folks!!! I was being humorous throughout. I’ve run into many people who think they’re Franciscan because they like animals. . . but that’s merely been a good bit of my experience! . . . keeping a smile on it, is good.

 

[iloveangels]

Sorry folks!!! I was being humorous throughout. I’ve run into many people who think they’re Franciscan because they like animals. . . but that’s merely been a good bit of my experience! . . . keeping a smile on it, is good.

It’s all good, Captain. Sorry for the $10 explanation, but there are several memes that we hear very often and this is one of them…

BTW, I have a St. Francis statue in my yard too. It serves several purposes, one of which is tongue in cheek.

 

[Marauder]

Sorry folks!!! I was being humorous throughout. I’ve run into many people who think they’re Franciscan because they like animals. . . but that’s merely been a good bit of my experience! . . . keeping a smile on it, is good.

Yes I have seen the same thing. Also seen people that expect since I am a Franciscan that I have to be a vegetarian/vegan. It is interesting what different people expect when they hear you are in an Order, are a Franciscan etc. But I can understand the misunderstandings.

I personally still have a tough time figuring out how to deal with a lot of the new ecumenical/non-denominational “Franciscan” groups. Of course, no reason to discuss that here, it would be an entirely new tangent.

 

[iloveangels]

Thanks for the response and for the suggestions, I will take your advice to be sure.

I got an e-mail back from the Oblate Director where I sent a message to yesterday. He invited me up for an Oblate retreat which is going on this weekend but with that little notice, there is no way I can make it happen. He also invited me to make a visit another time and to let him know about any questions as well as making some book recommendations for me that he will send soon.

This is the monastery I am looking into at the moment. Largely because it is close but I would be open to suggestions on that as well.

monksok.org/

Peace all,

Jason

That looks wonderful. Looking at the Oblate page, there is a great looking community there too.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes I have seen the same thing. Also seen people that expect since I am a Franciscan that I have to be a vegetarian/vegan. It is interesting what different people expect when they hear you are in an Order, are a Franciscan etc. But I can understand the misunderstandings.

I personally still have a tough time figuring out how to deal with a lot of the new ecumenical/non-denominational “Franciscan” groups. Of course, no reason to discuss that here, it would be an entirely new tangent.

People just look at SFOs here like they have two heads. People are exclusively used to the parish model where any person they come across who does anything in the Church is a lay minister or a secretary or something like that. We’ve never had so many sisters here that people bring that immediately to mind like they do in some places, which can lead to another sort of conceptual misunderstanding, although we did have some schoolteaching sisters years ago. Nevertheless, to most people we’re an entirely new category they don’t expect.

This actually fits into this Dominican thread because I think the same situation would hold for members of any third order. We’re just not used to them here.

I haven’t come into personal contact with any ecumenical/non-denominational Franciscans in this geographical area. I agree that it would be a new tangent and not in keeping with the topic of this thread.

 

[jwinch2]

That looks wonderful. Looking at the Oblate page, there is a great looking community there too.

We’ll have to see I guess, but thanks.

As a note for anyone who may care (and those of you who probably don’t) I changed my profile to remove the references to the Dominican Laity for the time being. I am not making any decisions at this time, but I don’t want to cause confusion by things I might post on other threads for those who may be discerning vocations themselves. In the event that I continue on my present course, I will return my avatar and signature block to all of its former glory!

I am also going to link to another thread on Benedictine Oblates in an effort to not derail this one any further than I already have for people who are coming here looking for information on the Order of Preachers.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=305810

Please respond here on this subject. I will of course remain active in my discussion of the Dominican laity as well on this and other similar threads.

Peace of Christ,

 

[iloveangels]

We’ll have to see I guess, but thanks.

As a note for anyone who may care (and those of you who probably don’t) I changed my profile to remove the references to the Dominican Laity for the time being. I am not making any decisions at this time, but I don’t want to cause confusion by things I might post on other threads for those who may be discerning vocations themselves. In the event that I continue on my present course, I will return my avatar and signature block to all of its former glory!

I am also going to link to another thread on Benedictine Oblates in an effort to not derail this one any further than I already have for people who are coming here looking for information on the Order of Preachers.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=305810

Please respond here on this subject. I will of course remain active in my discussion of the Dominican laity as well on this and other similar threads.

Peace of Christ,

Excellent. Thank you, Jason.

 

[iloveangels]

The interesting part about Dominicans is that they share many of the same characteristics as Franciscans, and in the Mass they are even spoken of together. They were founded in near historical proximity and I believe that the two saints even knew each other. They’re also both non-monastic, except for the cloistering of the respective 2nd orders which has historical meaning. They were both outgrowths of the reforms that occurred in the Church in the 11th-13th centuries, and they both precipitated the reforms that occurred in society in the 13th-15th centuries.

But the Dominicans are clerical and scholarly in nature, while the Franciscans, although having many more scholars than most people think, are not primarily scholarly nor are they clerical.

I have also read what Br JR said elsewhere: that which house a group of medieval penitents ended up associating itself with determined which order they ended up with. The root pool of seculars in both orders were medieval lay penitents seeking a certain kind of life within the Church.

 

[jwinch2]

The interesting part about Dominicans is that they share many of the same characteristics as Franciscans, and in the Mass they are even spoken of together. They were founded in near historical proximity and I believe that the two saints even knew each other.

In one of the histories of Saint Dominic that I have, the claim is made the the two great saints knew each other to some extent. What level of relationship they had is a bit sketchy from what I can tell.

What is not sketchy is the great love and respect that Dominic had for Francis. He went as far as to write into the original constitutions of the Friars Preachers that they were always to love the sons of Francis and were not to believe anything bad about them without significant evidence to support the claims being made.

Unfortunately later on, there was a significant rivalry which developed between the two orders with things declining to the point that they worked hard to poach each other’s members. Thanks be to God, that is long gone and the two orders have a great deal of love and respect for each other today.

 

[iloveangels]

In one of the histories of Saint Dominic that I have, the claim is made the the two great saints knew each other to some extent. What level of relationship they had is a bit sketchy from what I can tell.

What is not sketchy is the great love and respect that Dominic had for Francis. He went as far as to write into the original constitutions of the Friars Preachers that they were always to love the sons of Francis and were not to believe anything bad about them without significant evidence to support the claims being made.

Unfortunately later on, there was a significant rivalry which developed between the two orders with things declining to the point that they worked hard to poach each other’s members. Thanks be to God, that is long gone and the two orders have a great deal of love and respect for each other today.

I know. There has been some rivalry, and it probably has as much to do with the similarities as it does with the differences. The Franciscans have a very great love and respect for the Dominicans too.

It also can’t be forgotten that the Franciscans have had some rivalry even inside their own order. What St. Francis laid out for the order is at once very simple and very complicated. It’s kept us on our toes for 800 years. On the other hand, it’s made us very adaptable and fecund. This always has to be factored in when talking about the Franciscans and their relationships. In other words, the Dominicans aren’t the only ones who’ve raised their eyebrows at us…

 

[iloveangels]

The whole subject of the history of religious orders in the Church is fascinating. At the same time Sts. Francis and Dominic were alive, there were other penitential orders too: The Order of Grandmont, now suppressed; the Servites, still existing; the Norbertines, still existing; and many others. The 11th-13th centuries were a time of social ferment and great change.

 

[jwinch2]

The whole subject of the history of religious orders in the Church is fascinating. At the same time Sts. Francis and Dominic were alive, there were other penitential orders too: The Order of Grandmont, now suppressed; the Servites, still existing; the Norbertines, still existing; and many others. The 11th-13th centuries were a time of social ferment and great change.

Agreed. This is one particular area of Church history which I find interesting as well. Except when I see things about rivalry between orders, etc. That is always disappointing to see.

 

[iloveangels]

Agreed. This is one particular area of Church history which I find interesting as well. Except when I see things about rivalry between orders, etc. That is always disappointing to see.

Yes, but also enlightening. There are lessons here that we need to be aware of. This is one of the reasons for knowing who these people were and what they did. The context in which both the Franciscans and the Dominicans were formed consisted of these events and ideas. An understanding of key ideas in the respective charisms isn’t complete without some comprehension of these things.

And honestly, Jason, any rivalry between the Franciscans and the Dominicans is like rivalry between brothers. They are both very good orders that have survived the tests of time and fidelity to the Church, unlike many other groups before them. And there is a great fondness and respect for each other between the Dominicans and the Franciscans.

 

[jwinch2]

Yes, but also enlightening. There are lessons here that we need to be aware of. This is one of the reasons for knowing who these people were and what they did. The context in which both the Franciscans and the Dominicans were formed consisted of these events and ideas. An understanding of key ideas in the respective charisms isn’t complete without some comprehension of these things.

And honestly, Jason, any rivalry between the Franciscans and the Dominicans is like rivalry between brothers. They are both very good orders that have survived the tests of time and fidelity to the Church, unlike many other groups before them. And there is a great fondness and respect for each other between the Dominicans and the Franciscans.

Agreed. Also, I wasn’t specifically referring to Dominicans and Franciscans with my last comment but rather rivalry between orders in general. I get it from an intellectual standpoint but I don’t like seeing it.

 

[JReducation]

Very well explained, Marauder.

There are also quite a few “Franciscan-flavored” groups that aren’t specifically Franciscan but look something like it, although their constitutions usually are “mixed” so that they have only some of the properties of the Franciscans and some properties from somewhere else. Examples: The Brothers and Sisters of Charity (John Michael Talbot’s group), the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, etc. Some Franciscan-like congregations of sisters are like this also.

Franciscans aren’t monastic. They’re also not clerical, meaning that the great majority of Franciscans aren’t ordained. We have large numbers of non-ordained brothers, and we have even larger numbers of non-ordained seculars. The American catholic mind sometimes has trouble with this concept because we’re so used to those in orders being ordained and doing parish work exclusively.

Being a Franciscan is about witness like all the true orders --“being” not so much “doing.” The “doing,” for a Franciscan comes out of the “being,” not the other way around, which is a strange idea for contemporary Americans.

Just a quick update. The Brothers and Sisters of Penance have been approved as a Franciscan Society of Apostolic Life. They are part of the Franciscan family. The Brothers and Sisters of Charity remain autonomous; but that’s their choice. The invitation has been made.

There are also Franciscan obediences that are Franciscan, but not part of the Third Order, because we follow the Rule of the Friars Minor. In the USA these are:

1. 
   *]Franciscans of Life
   *]Franciscans of the Renewal
   *]Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word
   *]Franciscan Brothers of Peace
   *]Franciscans of the Primitive Observance
   *]Franciscans of the Holy Family
   *]Franciscans of the Eucharist
   *]Little Brothers of St. Francis
   *]Franciscan Brothers Minor
   *]Franciscans of the Immaculate
   
   These all belong to the Franciscan Renewal Movement. They are growing in leaps and bounds, but they have very few priests. They only ordain enough priests to serve the needs of the friars and to help out at a parish on a weekend, not for running parishes. None of the these groups takes on parishes and none of them serve among the middle class or higher.
   
   Fraternally,
   
   Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

Just a quick update. The Brothers and Sisters of Penance have been approved as a Franciscan Society of Apostolic Life. They are part of the Franciscan family. The Brothers and Sisters of Charity remain autonomous; but that’s their choice. The invitation has been made.

There are also Franciscan obediences that are Franciscan, but not part of the Third Order, because we follow the Rule of the Friars Minor. In the USA these are:

1. 
   *]Franciscans of Life
   *]Franciscans of the Renewal
   *]Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word
   *]Franciscan Brothers of Peace
   *]Franciscans of the Primitive Observance
   *]Franciscans of the Holy Family
   *]Franciscans of the Eucharist
   *]Little Brothers of St. Francis
   *]Franciscan Brothers Minor
   *]Franciscans of the Immaculate
   
   These all belong to the Franciscan Renewal Movement. They are growing in leaps and bounds, but they have very few priests. They only ordain enough priests to serve the needs of the friars and to help out at a parish on a weekend, not for running parishes. None of the these groups takes on parishes and none of them serve among the middle class or higher.
   
   Fraternally,
   
   Br. JR, FFV

1. 
   Ah, thank you. That’s what I was asking earlier. This is getting clearer to me now.
   
   What does it mean to “be approved as a Franciscan Society of Apostolic Life?” Does that approval come from the bishop, from the order or from the Holy See? I mean are they invited by somebody? Who?
   
   If one were to draw a tree diagram of the Franciscan family, where would the groups in the list that use the 1st order rule fit? Are they a reform, like the OCDs are to the O’carms? Or not exactly?
   
   BTW, the Brothers & Sisters of Charity (John Michael Talbot’s group), according to their website, is using a blended sort of charism, and that’s probably why they’ve chosen to be independent.