Dominican Third Order?

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iloveangels said:
Ah, thank you. That’s what I was asking earlier. This is getting clearer to me now.

What does it mean to “be approved as a Franciscan Society of Apostolic Life?” Does that approval come from the bishop, from the order or from the Holy See? I know what “Society of Apostolic Life” means. What makes it an approved Franciscan Society of Apostolic Life?

If one were to draw a tree diagram of the Franciscan family, where would the groups in the list that use the 1st order rule fit? Are they a reform, like the OCDs are to the O’carms? Or not exactly?

BTW, the Brothers & Sisters of Charity (John Michael Talbot’s group), according to their website, is using a blended sort of charism, and that’s probably why they’ve chosen to be independent.
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iloveangels said:
Ah, thank you. That’s what I was asking earlier. This is getting clearer to me now.
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This is pretty much what happened in the 16th century when two Conventuals and two Observants decided to get together to live a more austere life. That’s how the Capuchins were born. At that time, the Holy See allowed the Capuchins to continue to use the name Order of Friars Minor. They became OFM Cap.

Bl. John Paul didn’t think it was a good idea for today’s renewal communities to go by OFM+. His logic was very sound. I cold give the false impression that the OFM is falling apart, which is not the case at all. By all of us using OFM+ people wouldn’t see that the Franciscan family is a tree where even the branches have branches. His idea was to show off the tree, rather than give the impression of conflicts and breakdowns.

The truth is that none of the renewal communities have had conflicts with the OFMs or the TORs. For example, my community came about because we do pro-life ministry exclusively. There is nothing in the Capuchin constitution that says that a group of friars can come together to do one ministry the rest of their lives. The Capuchin constitution says that the friars will serve the poor. It does not commit the friars to any particular segment of the poor.

The Rule of St. Francis does not specify anything about ministry. That meant that those of us who started out would be open to be pulled from pro-life work at any moment or we could ask to break away to start a Franciscan community that does just pro-life work. We shoe the latter and went through the proper channels and permissions. We just received the bishop’s blessing on March 16, after several years.
What does it mean to “be approved as a Franciscan Society of Apostolic Life?” Does that approval come from the bishop, from the order or from the Holy See? I mean are they invited by somebody? Who?
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The local bishop is the Church. You must submit your proposal to the local bishop. The bishop can choose to let you grow without erecting you as a community, to see how things go. If things go well, he will ask you to write a constitution. He will want a constitution and a copy of the rule. Since Francis wrote four rules, you get to pick. There can be nothing in the constitution that is in conflict with the rule. The constitution can only fill in what Francis does not address or whoever, if you choose the Benedictine, Augustinian or another rule, it’s the same thing.

Everything is ready a canon lawyer to make sure that you’re within the law. Then it goes to the diocesan Vicar for Religious who oversees the religious in the diocese. He or she is not a superior, just a coordinator to ensure that the religious in the diocese are not stepping all over each other trying to do the same thing. If he or she says that you bring something new to the Church, he will say so. It all goes back to the bishop.

Then you get a letter with the bishop’s blessing. This allows you to call yourself Catholic, Franciscan, open houses in his diocese, recruit in his diocese, exercise your ministry at his discretion, raise funds, and open a formation program.

After that is the final step, if you grow in numbers and remain financially autonomous, the bishop will erect you as a permanent community of diocesan right. From there, if you grow large enough to go beyond the boundaries of the diocese, the bishop will ask the Holy See to grant you the privilege of exemption. You then become a community of Pontifical Right and you owe obedience to no one except the pope. This allows you freedom of mobility.
If one were to draw a tree diagram of the Franciscan family, where would the groups in the list that use the 1st order rule fit? Are they a reform, like the OCDs are to the O’carms? Or not exactly?
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The earth is the Church. Francis is the trunk. There are three branches that come out of that trunk: Friars Minor, Poor Clares, Secular Franciscans.

There are three branches that come out of the Friars Minor branch (OFM, OFM Conv, OFM cap). There are 9 branches that come out of the Poor Clare branch. There are nine different kinds of Poor Clares. There is one branch that comes out of the Secular Franciscan branch. That’s the TOR.

From the different OFM branches, there are smaller branches, that’s where you put all those little communities that follow the OFM rule.

From the TOR branch, there are hundreds of smaller branches, that’s where you put all of the Franciscans sisters and some of the Franciscan brothers.

From the OFS you now have a few branches such as the Brothers and Sisters Penance, the Confraternity of St. Francis, and the Secular Franciscans of the Immaculate.

As you can see, everything is done very carefully so as to preserve the Franciscan succession. For that reason bishops want to see your constitution, the rule and observe how you live and work. They have to make sure that you’re growing out of the Franciscan family, not becoming a different animals that is called Franciscan.
BTW, the Brothers & Sisters of Charity (John Michael Talbot’s group), according to their website, is using a blended sort of charism, and that’s probably why they’ve chosen to be independent.
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I believe that’s the case. They’re an example of a different animal. They’re a good and beautiful animal, just not a Franciscan animal. They like the mule.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
This is pretty much what happened in the 16th century when two Conventuals and two Observants decided to get together to live a more austere life. That’s how the Capuchins were born. At that time, the Holy See allowed the Capuchins to continue to use the name Order of Friars Minor. They became OFM Cap.

Bl. John Paul didn’t think it was a good idea for today’s renewal communities to go by OFM+. His logic was very sound. I cold give the false impression that the OFM is falling apart, which is not the case at all. By all of us using OFM+ people wouldn’t see that the Franciscan family is a tree where even the branches have branches. His idea was to show off the tree, rather than give the impression of conflicts and breakdowns.

The truth is that none of the renewal communities have had conflicts with the OFMs or the TORs. For example, my community came about because we do pro-life ministry exclusively. There is nothing in the Capuchin constitution that says that a group of friars can come together to do one ministry the rest of their lives. The Capuchin constitution says that the friars will serve the poor. It does not commit the friars to any particular segment of the poor.

The Rule of St. Francis does not specify anything about ministry. That meant that those of us who started out would be open to be pulled from pro-life work at any moment or we could ask to break away to start a Franciscan community that does just pro-life work. We shoe the latter and went through the proper channels and permissions. We just received the bishop’s blessing on March 16, after several years.

The local bishop is the Church. You must submit your proposal to the local bishop. The bishop can choose to let you grow without erecting you as a community, to see how things go. If things go well, he will ask you to write a constitution. He will want a constitution and a copy of the rule. Since Francis wrote four rules, you get to pick. There can be nothing in the constitution that is in conflict with the rule. The constitution can only fill in what Francis does not address or whoever, if you choose the Benedictine, Augustinian or another rule, it’s the same thing.

Everything is ready a canon lawyer to make sure that you’re within the law. Then it goes to the diocesan Vicar for Religious who oversees the religious in the diocese. He or she is not a superior, just a coordinator to ensure that the religious in the diocese are not stepping all over each other trying to do the same thing. If he or she says that you bring something new to the Church, he will say so. It all goes back to the bishop.

Then you get a letter with the bishop’s blessing. This allows you to call yourself Catholic, Franciscan, open houses in his diocese, recruit in his diocese, exercise your ministry at his discretion, raise funds, and open a formation program.

After that is the final step, if you grow in numbers and remain financially autonomous, the bishop will erect you as a permanent community of diocesan right. From there, if you grow large enough to go beyond the boundaries of the diocese, the bishop will ask the Holy See to grant you the privilege of exemption. You then become a community of Pontifical Right and you owe obedience to no one except the pope. This allows you freedom of mobility.

The earth is the Church. Francis is the trunk. There are three branches that come out of that trunk: Friars Minor, Poor Clares, Secular Franciscans.

There are three branches that come out of the Friars Minor branch (OFM, OFM Conv, OFM cap). There are 9 branches that come out of the Poor Clare branch. There are nine different kinds of Poor Clares. There is one branch that comes out of the Secular Franciscan branch. That’s the TOR.

From the different OFM branches, there are smaller branches, that’s where you put all those little communities that follow the OFM rule.

From the TOR branch, there are hundreds of smaller branches, that’s where you put all of the Franciscans sisters and some of the Franciscan brothers.

From the OFS you now have a few branches such as the Brothers and Sisters Penance, the Confraternity of St. Francis, and the Secular Franciscans of the Immaculate.

As you can see, everything is done very carefully so as to preserve the Franciscan succession. For that reason bishops want to see your constitution, the rule and observe how you live and work. They have to make sure that you’re growing out of the Franciscan family, not becoming a different animals that is called Franciscan.

I believe that’s the case. They’re an example of a different animal. They’re a good and beautiful animal, just not a Franciscan animal. They like the mule.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
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Getting much clearer again. I am hearing that when a group submits a Franciscan rule and constitutions that complement it properly, and then works until they become an approved Society of Apostolic Life, that the coordination has gone on from the Bishop’s office such that it can be called an approved Franciscan Society of Apostolic Life, not just an approved Society of Apostolic Life. This is how they get to be a part of the Franciscan family. [Or if I have this wrong, is it the rule or is it something else?]

I’m really talking about what constitutes Franciscan succession.
 
iloveangels said:
Getting much clearer again. I am hearing that when a group submits a Franciscan rule and constitutions that complement it properly, and then works until they become an approved Society of Apostolic Life, that the coordination has gone on from the Bishop’s office such that it can be called an approved Franciscan Society of Apostolic Life, not just an approved Society of Apostolic Life. This is how they get to be a part of the Franciscan family. [Or if I have this wrong, is it the rule or is it something else?]

I’m really talking about what constitutes Franciscan succession.
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You pretty much have it right.

There are Societies of Apostolic Life and there are Religious Communities. A group can be either. A society of apostolic life is made up of secular men and women, including deacons and priests. A religious community is made up of consecrated people, including priests, but not always.

The initial founders have to decide which way they want to go. The each have their place in the Church.

The part that the bishop plays is key. Only the bishop can grant you permission to do the following:

a. Call yourself Catholic. You’re not a Catholic anything without the written permission of a bishop. You can’t even be Catholic Answers, without the bishop’s written permission. The Church has proprietary rights on the name Catholic. Canon Law says that no group, not organization, no institution may call itself Catholic without the Church’s permission.

b. Call yourself Franciscans. You’e not Franciscan until the bishop says that your constitutions comply with the Rule of St. Francis and Canon Law. It is the bishop and his chancery staff who determine whether you fulfill the requirements for Franciscan succession. The fact that you’re founded by a Franciscan does not guarantee succession. If the constitutions do not harmonize with the rule, you’re something else.

Once you have crossed those two bridges, the bishop can give you his blessing and you start to grow.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
You pretty much have it right.

There are Societies of Apostolic Life and there are Religious Communities. A group can be either. A society of apostolic life is made up of secular men and women, including deacons and priests. A religious community is made up of consecrated people, including priests, but not always.

The initial founders have to decide which way they want to go. The each have their place in the Church.

The part that the bishop plays is key. Only the bishop can grant you permission to do the following:

a. Call yourself Catholic. You’re not a Catholic anything without the written permission of a bishop. You can’t even be Catholic Answers, without the bishop’s written permission. The Church has proprietary rights on the name Catholic. Canon Law says that no group, not organization, no institution may call itself Catholic without the Church’s permission.

b. Call yourself Franciscans. You’e not Franciscan until the bishop says that your constitutions comply with the Rule of St. Francis and Canon Law. It is the bishop and his chancery staff who determine whether you fulfill the requirements for Franciscan succession. The fact that you’re founded by a Franciscan does not guarantee succession. If the constitutions do not harmonize with the rule, you’re something else.

Once you have crossed those two bridges, the bishop can give you his blessing and you start to grow.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
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Thank you, Br JR. I’ve wondered about this for a long time now.
 
The Church takes this very seriously, because there are too many wacko groups out there calling themselves Dominican, Franciscan, Benedictines, etc when they don’t even have permission to call themselves Catholic.

There is no such thing as a Protestant Dominican, not that I know. There actually are Protestant Franciscans and Benedictines. I don’t think that there are any Dominicans.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
The Church takes this very seriously, because there are too many wacko groups out there calling themselves Dominican, Franciscan, Benedictines, etc when they don’t even have permission to call themselves Catholic.

There is no such thing as a Protestant Dominican, not that I know. There actually are Protestant Franciscans and Benedictines. I don’t think that there are any Dominicans.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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There are supposed Anglican Dominicans, but I don’t know much about them.
 
JReducation said:
The Church takes this very seriously, because there are too many wacko groups out there calling themselves Dominican, Franciscan, Benedictines, etc when they don’t even have permission to call themselves Catholic.

There is no such thing as a Protestant Dominican, not that I know. There actually are Protestant Franciscans and Benedictines. I don’t think that there are any Dominicans.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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I understand. I’ve seen some of that on the startup level. A lot of organizations that get started don’t get very far. We’ve had two in this diocese, that I know of, in the past 15 years or so. And this is a small diocese. I don’t think it’s all that uncommon.
 
iloveangels said:
I understand. I’ve seen some of that on the startup level. A lot of organizations that get started don’t get very far. We’ve had two in this diocese, that I know of, in the past 15 years or so. And this is a small diocese. I don’t think it’s all that uncommon.
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The Church is not worried about communities that start and don’t thrive. That happens. The Church is concerned about those that don’t represent the Church well, even if they do thrive. Those are the ones we have to worry about.

This applies to the laity too. The laity is free to form organizations, but is not free to call their organization, Catholic. They must apply to the bishop for permission. Even if the organization is private. There was an issue about that over Real Catholic TV. I don’t know how it ended up or if it’s still ongoing. Bishops can insist that you not use the name Catholic if you do not have their permission.

I don’t know what they can do to stop you, but it’s not something I want to find out. For that reason, we just kept writing letters to the bishop and did not separate from the OSF until the bishop gave us his blessing. Otherwise, we would not be Catholic. We would be a community of Catholic men, not a Catholic community.

That’s like having a China Town in your city. It has a lot of Chinese people, but it’s not China.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
The Church is not worried about communities that start and don’t thrive. That happens. The Church is concerned about those that don’t represent the Church well, even if they do thrive. Those are the ones we have to worry about.

This applies to the laity too. The laity is free to form organizations, but is not free to call their organization, Catholic. They must apply to the bishop for permission. Even if the organization is private. There was an issue about that over Real Catholic TV. I don’t know how it ended up or if it’s still ongoing. Bishops can insist that you not use the name Catholic if you do not have their permission.

I don’t know what they can do to stop you, but it’s not something I want to find out. For that reason, we just kept writing letters to the bishop and did not separate from the OSF until the bishop gave us his blessing. Otherwise, we would not be Catholic. We would be a community of Catholic men, not a Catholic community.

That’s like having a China Town in your city. It has a lot of Chinese people, but it’s not China.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
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Yes and this is why it’s good to know what you’re dealing with even if you’re just a layperson. If a person doesn’t know, they can end up donating to or recommending things that they think are associated with the Church and aren’t. It’s possible even to get involved on a “spiritual advice” type level or something like that and be misled. It happens.

BTW, I never found out what happened to the Real Catholic TV thing either. It came up and then just dropped off the radar, maybe because of all the other things going on in Catholic news lately, the Supreme Court and all that.
 
I stuck it in my amazon cart. I like the Dominican stuff because of Aquinas; stimulating to me.
 
Captain_America said:
I stuck it in my amazon cart. I like the Dominican stuff because of Aquinas; stimulating to me.
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That’s where we differ. I love the OPs; Aquinas I can use as a reference. I cannot sit and read him as I would Catherine of Siena, Bonaventure, the Fathers. He drives me crazy. I’m with Pope Benedict on this one. The Pope and I agree. 😃 Aquinas is arid. Augustine and Bonaventure say the same things, but are very passionate.

It’s rather interesting, because the best professor that I had on Spiritual Theology was Jordan Aumann, OP. The man was absolutely passionate, while logical at the same time. Being boring is not a Dominican trait. It’s Aquinas who’s boring.

He’s an excellent resource . . . one of the best, if not the best in the Church’s history. But not spiritual reading material. :hypno:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
The Church takes this very seriously, because there are too many wacko groups out there calling themselves Dominican, Franciscan, Benedictines, etc when they don’t even have permission to call themselves Catholic.

There is no such thing as a Protestant Dominican, not that I know. There actually are Protestant Franciscans and Benedictines. I don’t think that there are any Dominicans.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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I’ve become increasingly curious why groups outside the Catholic Church would want to co-opt a Catholic saint. I certainly understand the appeal of St. Francis, but after all, he was a Catholic, loyal to Church and Pope. Do non-Catholics decide to follow the path of St. Francis–except for that pesky detail that his entire faith life was grounded in Catholicism? It makes me think of the people who want to say Jesus was a nice moral man who had lots to teach us, while ignoring all that stuff about being the Son of God and being resurrected. 🤷
 
AlwaysCurious said:
I’ve become increasingly curious why groups outside the Catholic Church would want to co-opt a Catholic saint. I certainly understand the appeal of St. Francis, but after all, he was a Catholic, loyal to Church and Pope. Do non-Catholics decide to follow the path of St. Francis–except for that pesky detail that his entire faith life was grounded in Catholicism? It makes me think of the people who want to say Jesus was a nice moral man who had lots to teach us, while ignoring all that stuff about being the Son of God and being resurrected. 🤷
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What actually happened was that when we lost England, we lost many religious houses to the Church of England. They continued to live under the Benedictine and Franciscan rules to this day.

There have been a number of Franciscan Anglican houses that have come back to Catholicism, because of the passage in Francis’ Testament that says that the “I Brother Francis promise obedience to the Lord Pope and all of his bishops [without questions] and the brothers shall obey me [without questions] and my canonically elected successors.”

In essence there is a chain of command that is explicitly spelled out for the Franciscans. Some Anglicans will argue that this command was not included in the original rule; therefore, it’s not legally binding. Francis wrote his Testament the year that he died. That’s how they get around it. The Catholic Franciscans, on the other hand, take it for what it is, it’s Francis’ last attempt to clarify that part of the rule that may sound ambiguous, “Obedience to whom?” He spells it out before he died. Therefore, it’s not seen as a separate writing, but and explanation of the rule of obedience. He repeats it again in the admonitions, which are the first amendments to the rule.

With the Benedictines, the break with Rome was easier. The Benedictines do not vow to obey the Church. They vow to obey the Abbot. Christ speaks through the Abbot. Hence his title, Abba, which is the same title that Jesus uses for God. The abbot is called Abba and the house that is governed by the abbot is the abbey. In the Rule of St.Benedict,there is no mention of the pope or the bishops. Benedict points the monks back to him and those abbots whom he appoints.

The English abbots felt that they had no legal commitment to the Bishop of Rome. However, there is a misunderstanding here. This misunderstanding is clarified much later as we find other Benedictine documents. While Benedict never mentioned the pope, it seems that he took it for granted that the monks were Catholic In all of his writing and teachings he speaks about the Church of the Latin Patriarch. This was probably an attempt to distinguish the Benedictines from the Basilians who are their counterparts in the Easter Churches.

If there were any Dominicans caught in the split between England and Rome, there must have been very few, because I don’t think that there are Anglican Dominicans. They must have died out. Maybe a Dominican who knows about Anglican history can shed some light on this. The Dominicans also do not vow obedience to the pope. The vow obedience to Augustine and Dominic. These are the patriarchs of the Dominican family. They vow to obey Augustine’s Rule and the Dominican constitution.

Franciscans are the only order that explicitly vow obedience to the pope. The Jesuits vow to be at his disposal, which is not the same. This is not a vow to be under his control. It means to go where he sends them. Ignatius did not want them to be under the Church’s control. But he did want them to serve the Church. It’s an interesting spirituality. Francis wanted his brothers to be under papal and episcopal control. It was the Council of Trent that say, “No way.” No bishop may ever dictate to a Franciscan. Only the pope, because the Franciscan Rule is of Divine Inspiration. Bishops can approve their entrance into his diocese, but he cannot get involved in their life.

This makes them the same as the Dominicans. The Dominicans always had this independence from the bishops. The Franciscans and others acquired it at Trent. This was great for the Dominicans, especially the Dominican laity, because it came under the jurisdiction of the Master General rather than the local bishop. These things have been altered since then. This freedom allowed Dominicans to explode all over. They became awesome missionaries, preachers and educators.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
That’s one of my biggest stumbling blocks at the moment; I’m simply not that big a fan of reading and studying Aquinas. I know of several Dominicans who love his writings and follow most of them to the letter, but for some reason I just can’t seem to get into it.
 
jwinch2 said:
anglicandominican.com/

I don’t know if they are left over from the split, or if they are newer invention.

Peace,
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If you click the tab that says “about”, you will find this statement embedded in their story.
**
It was not until the last years of the 20th century that an expression of Dominican spirituality and life could be found outside of the Roman Catholic Church.**

That would mean the 1990s.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
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