Dominion over the soul

[Laughing_Crow]

One thing has always bothered me about many religions is the fact that they teach that my soul/spirit/essence etc has to accept God or fall to evil. This has bothered me as it makes me feel as if I’m nothing but property with two deities auctioning for my soul. Why can I not turn my back on both and continue on alone to do what I wish? Why if i wave of the hand of ‘God’ do I have to fall to ‘Satan’ when I have no interest in either ‘owning’ me.

I’ve always believed hell or the underworld or whatever name it holds is a place for those who commit horrible actions against others ie murder, rape and I find the idea I will be sent there simply because I crave independence rather unjust.

The problem stems from my beleif that you cant have happiness without sadness, love without hate etc etc, every emotion, act or idea must have a counter balance, and the idea of heaven where this balance no longer exists does not appeal to me. Sure, a place of no suffering is fine at first, but I enjoy suffering because I know that I will feel much happier once I over come that suffering. A reward without a test is meaningless and losses value.

Sorry im walking in circles here:shrug:

I guess what I want to know is if I shun both god and devil, am I sent to hell and why?

 

[Nine_Two]

One thing has always bothered me about many religions is the fact that they teach that my soul/spirit/essence etc has to accept God or fall to evil. This has bothered me as it makes me feel as if I’m nothing but property with two deities auctioning for my soul. Why can I not turn my back on both and continue on alone to do what I wish? Why if i wave of the hand of ‘God’ do I have to fall to ‘Satan’ when I have no interest in either ‘owning’ me.

That is quite a simplification, Satan is himself “fallen”, you do not fall to him but would rather fall with him. If perfection is God, which is one of the core beliefs of Christianity, then rejecting God is rejecting perfection, in essence deciding to fall.

I’ve always believed hell or the underworld or whatever name it holds is a place for those who commit horrible actions against others ie murder, rape and I find the idea I will be sent there simply because I crave independence rather unjust.

I apologize if I sound rude or abrupt with this answer, but when I was a child I believed in Santa and the toothfairy, simply because I believed it did not make it true. That same argument can be applied to religion of course, why do you believe hell is such? Why do I believe it is not? I believe what I believe based on a long tradition going back to those who were eyewitnesses to the teachings of a man whom they believed God, and whom they attest having risen from the dead, and attesting this so vigerously that they were willing to die for this belief. If I had to guess, I’d say your belief is itself rooted in the pop-culture of today, which is based on the antinomian/palagean idea that you just have to be a good person, of course no definition of good is ever really given.

The problem stems from my beleif that you cant have happiness without sadness, love without hate etc etc, every emotion, act or idea must have a counter balance, and the idea of heaven where this balance no longer exists does not appeal to me. Sure, a place of no suffering is fine at first, but I enjoy suffering because I know that I will feel much happier once I over come that suffering. A reward without a test is meaningless and losses value.

While that is an interesting argument, that you don’t notice something without seeing its opposite, it is also based on human perception. You’re basing it on the idea that heaven is a place you go to when you die and you walk around and everything is good and happy and all that. I had a priest not long ago give a homily in which he bluntly stated that if this was what heaven was he hoped he would not end up there.
That is not the teaching of the Christian faith.

Sorry im walking in circles here:shrug:

I guess what I want to know is if I shun both god and devil, am I sent to hell and why?

The devil has no power, so what you feel toward him does not matter. Shunning God - and I take your use of the word shunning to mean you mean an active act - would certainly lead to perdition. However based on what you’ve written I think you are shunning a preconception of what Christianity is, and not Christianity itself, or its God. I would urge you to learn more about this religion which you have distaste for, because I will admit the religion which you discribed is also one which I wouldn’t want anything to do with.

 

[Julian0404]

You cannot shun both Heaven and hell because they are mutually exclusive, and there is not third option.

However, your logic is working correctly on the “earthly level”, i.e. as you conclude that hell is place for people who do terrible deeds to other people - and who also die in that sin. GOD being an infinite loving GOD will forgive those sins if they are confessed.

Now, what you have not grasped is that to “ignore” or “shun” GOD is a far greater evil, even if you attempt to soften it by declaring it your independence.

But as you admit to the existance of hell, then you are not so atheistic as you might think.

Clearly you are now becoming open to debate and discussions, so I would suggest you go to a book store and get Father Anthony Alexanders COLLEGE Apologetics. It contains the 5 proofs for GOD, which may be helpful for you at the moment to read and consider.

 

[Laughing_Crow]

That is quite a simplification, Satan is himself “fallen”, you do not fall to him but would rather fall with him. If perfection is God, which is one of the core beliefs of Christianity, then rejecting God is rejecting perfection, in essence deciding to fall.

I do not wish to fall ‘with him’ i simply wish to proceed on my own path without any deity claiming to hold me.

I apologize if I sound rude or abrupt with this answer, but when I was a child I believed in Santa and the toothfairy, simply because I believed it did not make it true. That same argument can be applied to religion of course, why do you believe hell is such? Why do I believe it is not? I believe what I believe based on a long tradition going back to those who were eyewitnesses to the teachings of a man whom they believed God, and whom they attest having risen from the dead, and attesting this so vigerously that they were willing to die for this belief. If I had to guess, I’d say your belief is itself rooted in the pop-culture of today, which is based on the antinomian/palagean idea that you just have to be a good person, of course no definition of good is ever really given.

I apologize, however I was not just focusing on catholic and protestants, I was trying to include all religions into this spectrum, not just a singular sect.

Once again, I was trying to encompass all religons, and I will admit you are correct, I do not know much of the church, only basics from mouth to ear which unfortunately allows for peoples opinions to alter the truth.

The devil has no power, so what you feel toward him does not matter. Shunning God - and I take your use of the word shunning to mean you mean an active act - would certainly lead to perdition. However based on what you’ve written I think you are shunning a preconception of what Christianity is, and not Christianity itself, or its God. I would urge you to learn more about this religion which you have distaste for, because I will admit the religion which you discribed is also one which I wouldn’t want anything to do with.

I simply find the idea of ‘God’ and ‘Satan’ competing for my soul strange as it is my soul, made up of my ideals, hopes, fears, dreams etc. All children grow up and eventually leave home and finally become who they truly are, for better or worse. To me it seems like Heaven is like moving out of your parents house, then when your older coming back and living with them again.

You cannot shun both Heaven and hell because they are mutually exclusive, and there is not third option.

Thats my point, why is there no third option? Why can I not turn my back on both the good and evil and walk my own path of grey?

Now, what you have not grasped is that to “ignore” or “shun” GOD is a far greater evil, even if you attempt to soften it by declaring it your independence.

But I do not shun God and follow ‘satan’ I shun both and wish to walk my own path. I do not hate god or curse him, I just feel as if an over bearing parent wont let me leave the nest and spread my wings. Is it so bad to wish to be able to make decisions without any deity watching over my shoulder?

Yes, I’ll admit, coming here has helped me beleive there is some God or gods, but just as I believe it I question their nature.

Clearly you are now becoming open to debate and discussions, so I would suggest you go to a book store and get Father Anthony Alexanders COLLEGE Apologetics. It contains the 5 proofs for GOD, which may be helpful for you at the moment to read and consider. {/QUOTE] Yes once again I used to say ‘lets debate’ but would grab the sword once someone put down my ideas. I will look it up, unfortunately I live in the outback and resources are lacking, especially books. Lots of rain though

 

[Julian0404]

Living in the Outback, I can see where your sense of “independence” is important to you.

And being an atheist, I can understand why you do not have an understanding of why there is no 3rd position, so let me explain briefly.

Now that you are beginning to acknowledge that there is something out there, which Christians refer to as “GOD”, but yet you do not fully accept or appreciate “GOD” then by default you have not spent time reading or thinking on GOD.

Perhaps the first “proof” of GOD is FIRST CAUSE nothing can “be” without a cause. Everything you see in the Outback had a “first cause”. Even the Big Bang theory of the creation of the universe has to go back to where did the supposed “gas” come from that exploded leading to the development of planets, solar systems etc. What was the first cause of that gas.

And this “first cause”, being the creator of all that “is”, likewise is the author of all powers, systems, forces that keeps everything in place and moving in accordance to HIS wishes, i.e. gravity, the orbit of the moon that affects tide, the distance of the sun, all of those “items” if they were just a miniscule amount stronger or closer, we would all die from being crushed by gravity, burned up by the sun etc. The systems are so precise, so unique and so quantifiable that they cannot be “accidental”.

And as you continue to study, read and learn about “GOD”, you learn that it is HIS goal and desire that all of the souls HE creates, HE wishes for them to be with HIM in heaven. HE did not create souls to wander through time endlessly, without focus or destination. So, HE created heaven for HIS souls. HE did not create hell for HIS souls. Hell was created as a place of punishment for the angels, who although they lived in GOD’s presence, saw HIM, adored HIM, knew HIM directly and personally chose to “ignore” HIM and they made the decision that they could be like HIM, also a god, and also set up the way they wished to live in their own systems, powers and forces etc. And as they reject GOD, HE created hell in which to punish those, who had no reason NOT to know HIM. And furthermore, as people reject GOD, they are in turn rewarded with what they wish, “absense from GOD”, which is hell.

So, in GOD’s plan HE made heaven for man, hell for the bad angels and by default for those people who wish to be separated from GOD. Thus, being the creator and author of all things, HE designed the existance of the soul and the highest and greatest goal of any soul is to be with GOD. In the bible, book of Corinthians it reads, “. . . ear has not heard, eye has not seen, nor has it dawned upon man what GOD has created for him in heaven.” As much as you enjoy your independence, heaven makes your independence more like a continuous dark night in which you cannot see, cannot move without injury and cannot have hope of seeing light again.

Therefore, you cannot chose a 3rd option as the creator only made one option for mans soul - heaven. You have one choice, do I want to go to that unimaginable beautiful heaven for all eternity, or do I want nothiing to do with GOD?. By GOD’s design, that is your sole choice.

If you continue to use your earthly experience of “independent living in the outback” as the model from which you wish to die and move into eternity holding dearly and firmly to your independence, then you will by default decide against GOD. And GOD has given each of us the “free will” and “the independence” to accept HIM or reject HIM, as HE does not want any heavenly robots who just march to HIS orders. HE wants souls who know HIM, love HIM and serve HIM in this world and the next.

Go to www.salvationhistory.com and start an on-line bible study. Scott Hahn is very good at helping to explain the faith. Also get his CD’s as they are very good. Likewise try www.thereasonforourhope.com as Father Larry Richards has some excellent CD’s as well. Particulary his CD 'TRUTH in which he explain an example of a man from Crete, which has very similar parallels to the “man from the outback”.

 

[Laughing_Crow]

Living in the Outback, I can see where your sense of “independence” is important to you.

And being an atheist, I can understand why you do not have an understanding of why there is no 3rd position, so let me explain briefly.

Now that you are beginning to acknowledge that there is something out there, which Christians refer to as “GOD”, but yet you do not fully accept or appreciate “GOD” then by default you have not spent time reading or thinking on GOD.

Perhaps the first “proof” of GOD is FIRST CAUSE nothing can “be” without a cause. Everything you see in the Outback had a “first cause”. Even the Big Bang theory of the creation of the universe has to go back to where did the supposed “gas” come from that exploded leading to the development of planets, solar systems etc. What was the first cause of that gas.

And this “first cause”, being the creator of all that “is”, likewise is the author of all powers, systems, forces that keeps everything in place and moving in accordance to HIS wishes, i.e. gravity, the orbit of the moon that affects tide, the distance of the sun, all of those “items” if they were just a miniscule amount stronger or closer, we would all die from being crushed by gravity, burned up by the sun etc. The systems are so precise, so unique and so quantifiable that they cannot be “accidental”.

And as you continue to study, read and learn about “GOD”, you learn that it is HIS goal and desire that all of the souls HE creates, HE wishes for them to be with HIM in heaven. HE did not create souls to wander through time endlessly, without focus or destination. So, HE created heaven for HIS souls. HE did not create hell for HIS souls. Hell was created as a place of punishment for the angels, who although they lived in GOD’s presence, saw HIM, adored HIM, knew HIM directly and personally chose to “ignore” HIM and they made the decision that they could be like HIM, also a god, and also set up the way they wished to live in their own systems, powers and forces etc. And as they reject GOD, HE created hell in which to punish those, who had no reason NOT to know HIM. And furthermore, as people reject GOD, they are in turn rewarded with what they wish, “absense from GOD”, which is hell.

So, in GOD’s plan HE made heaven for man, hell for the bad angels and by default for those people who wish to be separated from GOD. Thus, being the creator and author of all things, HE designed the existance of the soul and the highest and greatest goal of any soul is to be with GOD. In the bible, book of Corinthians it reads, “. . . ear has not heard, eye has not seen, nor has it dawned upon man what GOD has created for him in heaven.” As much as you enjoy your independence, heaven makes your independence more like a continuous dark night in which you cannot see, cannot move without injury and cannot have hope of seeing light again.

Therefore, you cannot chose a 3rd option as the creator only made one option for mans soul - heaven. You have one choice, do I want to go to that unimaginable beautiful heaven for all eternity, or do I want nothiing to do with GOD?. By GOD’s design, that is your sole choice.

If you continue to use your earthly experience of “independent living in the outback” as the model from which you wish to die and move into eternity holding dearly and firmly to your independence, then you will by default decide against GOD. And GOD has given each of us the “free will” and “the independence” to accept HIM or reject HIM, as HE does not want any heavenly robots who just march to HIS orders. HE wants souls who know HIM, love HIM and serve HIM in this world and the next.

Go to www.salvationhistory.com and start an on-line bible study. Scott Hahn is very good at helping to explain the faith. Also get his CD’s as they are very good. Likewise try www.thereasonforourhope.com as Father Larry Richards has some excellent CD’s as well. Particulary his CD 'TRUTH in which he explain an example of a man from Crete, which has very similar parallels to the “man from the outback”.

I better clear this up, i only moved to the outback 3 years ago, I live most of my life on the Gold Coast. As a child I was bullied and had few friends, but I never asked my parents for help because they had so much trouble without me adding t oit I sat back and worked out my own problems. That is where my sense of independence comes from, because I had no one to turn to. Now before you judge my parents, this was self induced seclusion. When I was 7 my dad had a mental break down and was put in a mental asylum after nearly being killed many times in New Guinea and my mother struggled as her parents wanted ehr to leave him after that. My parents always struggled and though they urged me to speak with them, i alwasy clammed up because I felt Id just add to their burdens. My brother and father always got along well while I was my mothers son. I spent my life in books and in my own mind solving puzzles and problems. The reason I feel I do not need god is because I see I do not need anyone with me, I have made it through my life so far alone and I see no reason why I cannot continue on alone.

 

[Sufjon]

I guess what I want to know is if I shun both god and devil, am I sent to hell and why?

Hi Laughing Crow: I’m just making sure that I’m getting the proper meaning of what you’re saying. It sounds like you are wondering why you can’t be left out of the mix, or outside of the commonly prescribed system of God vs the Devil. You would like to be free to follow your own path - to be left alone. Do I have that right?

Secondly, the fact that you have that concern suggests to me that you might take the situation as being more than hypothetical, because it it was in fact only hypothetical, my sense is that you wouldn’t give it a second thought. I won’t ask you to answer that, but I’m just guessing.

Sorry if I didn’t get it right. If I did read you right, well then I’ve been in the exact same place. I had the same thoughts when I was 20, although I can’t say I had things as tough as you have. I do know that the answers are long in coming and hard fought for some of us.

I noticed though on your last post that you sound like you’ve had a lot to deal with in your short life. My experience is that the sort of life you have lived so far is usually reserved for the best of souls for some reason. I know you are an atheist, or at least have atheistic leanings, but if we were to assume on a hypothetical level that there is a God, I would say that He wouldn’t be sending a person like you to hell.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Laughing_Crow]

Hi Laughing Crow: I’m just making sure that I’m getting the proper meaning of what you’re saying. It sounds like you are wondering why you can’t be left out of the mix, or outside of the commonly prescribed system of God vs the Devil. You would like to be free to follow your own path - to be left alone. Do I have that right?

Correct, that is what I wish to do, to take no sides and sit on the sideline and watch or even just ignore the fight between good and evil and look elsewhere.

Secondly, the fact that you have that concern suggests to me that you might take the situation as being more than hypothetical, because it it was in fact only hypothetical, my sense is that you wouldn’t give it a second thought. I won’t ask you to answer that, but I’m just guessing.

Are you asking am I looking at this from a ‘what if angle’? I have accepted there is something else out there, but Im not sure on WHAT that something else is.

Sorry if I didn’t get it right. If I did read you right, well then I’ve been in the exact same place. I had the same thoughts when I was 20, although I can’t say I had things as tough as you have. I do know that the answers are long in coming and hard fought for some of us.

I noticed though on your last post that you sound like you’ve had a lot to deal with in your short life. My experience is that the sort of life you have lived so far is usually reserved for the best of souls for some reason. I know you are an atheist, or at least have atheistic leanings, but if we were to assume on a hypothetical level that there is a God, I would say that He wouldn’t be sending a person like you to hell.

Your friend
Sufjon

It is that life that lead me to protestant, agnostic, atheist, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist and back to agnostic, you could say Im constantly second guessing myself.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Hi Laughing Crow,

Your idea of ‘‘staying out of it’’ has a severe flaw. Satan is not God’s opposite and equal, trying to bring souls into his version of the afterlife.

Satan fell from heaven. He doesn’t care whether you accept him, only that you reject God.

If you wish to separate yourself from God in this life, God will respect your wishes in the Afterlife, but there is only one place to go after death to stay separated from God.

 

[Laughing_Crow]

Hi Laughing Crow,

Your idea of ‘‘staying out of it’’ has a severe flaw. Satan is not God’s opposite and equal, trying to bring souls into his version of the afterlife.

Satan fell from heaven. He doesn’t care whether you accept him, only that you reject God.

If you wish to separate yourself from God in this life, God will respect your wishes in the Afterlife, but there is only one place to go after death to stay separated from God.

It is not that I wish to be separated, more distance myself, how we all distance ourselves from our parents, yes we call and visit them after we move out but we strive on with our own lives without them, that is the kind of relationship I wish to have with ‘god’ or wahtevern ame these deities go by.

 

[LDNCatholic]

It is not that I wish to be separated, more distance myself, how we all distance ourselves from our parents, yes we call and visit them after we move out but we strive on with our own lives without them, that is the kind of relationship I wish to have with ‘god’ or wahtevern ame these deities go by.

We separate from our parents because we mature, eventually growing out of the need for their guidance and help.

You don’t do that with God. We need Him for our continued existence, we need Him at all hours. To your parents you’re an adult. To God you may as well be an infant for all that He does for us.

Distancing oneself from one’s parents is a good thing. Trying to distance yourself from God in the same manner is like a stubborn child threatening to run away from home because he doesn’t want to eat his broccoli.

 

[Laughing_Crow]

We separate from our parents because we mature, eventually growing out of the need for their guidance and help.

You don’t do that with God. We need Him for our continued existence, we need Him at all hours. To your parents you’re an adult. To God you may as well be an infant for all that He does for us.

Distancing oneself from one’s parents is a good thing. Trying to distance yourself from God in the same manner is like a stubborn child threatening to run away from home because he doesn’t want to eat his broccoli.

Is it truly so bad wishing to be independent? To wish that only i control my future?

 

[LDNCatholic]

Is it truly so bad wishing to be independent? To wish that only i control my future?

You can control your future, the problem is you want more choices where no more exist. It’s either Heaven or Hell, if you are separated from God, then that’s that. No gray neutral afterlife. Separation from God is Hell.

 

[Laughing_Crow]

You can control your future, the problem is you want more choices where no more exist. It’s either Heaven or Hell, if you are separated from God, then that’s that. No gray neutral afterlife. Separation from God is Hell.

Before I go any further, what exactly is ‘Hell’? Popular media implies its a big burning underground place filled with fire and pain, but popular media is rarely correct.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Before I go any further, what exactly is ‘Hell’? Popular media implies its a big burning underground place filled with fire and pain, but popular media is rarely correct.

Wouldn’t know. Never been

I’ve been told different opinions from the ‘‘Fire and Brimstone demons poking you with pitchforks for all eternity’’ to ‘‘complete isolation, contemplating your separateness from God, filled with pain and anguish’’

Either way, bottom line is Hell is eternal suffering and torment.

Also, would add that since living beings can’t see or touch Hell, I would guess it’s not ‘‘underground’’ but probably has something to do with the origin of the word Hell.

 

[Laughing_Crow]

Wouldn’t know. Never been

I’ve been told different opinions from the ‘‘Fire and Brimstone demons poking you with pitchforks for all eternity’’ to ‘‘complete isolation, contemplating your separateness from God, filled with pain and anguish’’

Either way, bottom line is Hell is eternal suffering and torment.

Also, would add that since living beings can’t see or touch Hell, I would guess it’s not ‘‘underground’’ but probably has something to do with the origin of the word Hell.

I see. I suppose I should tell you what I wish for my spirit after the physical body dies. I wish to not ascend or descend, but stay in this plain of existence and watch the universe until the end. Id like to watch stars be born and die, see binary systems, witness astronomical events no one else has seen. I feel if I ascend to heaven, I will not be able to do this, or at least, not in the way I wish. Id liek to watch it alone and think, I feel that watching it from heaven would be like on a tourist boat, to noisy and crowded

 

[LDNCatholic]

I see. I suppose I should tell you what I wish for my spirit after the physical body dies. I wish to not ascend or descend, but stay in this plain of existence and watch the universe until the end. Id like to watch stars be born and die, see binary systems, witness astronomical events no one else has seen. I feel if I ascend to heaven, I will not be able to do this, or at least, not in the way I wish. Id liek to watch it alone and think, I feel that watching it from heaven would be like on a tourist boat, to noisy and crowded

If wishes were horses mate.

Heaven is different to what we think it will be. In Heaven all curiosities and desires will have been satisfied. We will no longer need anything, we will be there, with God for all eternity.

If we wanted to observe stars forming etc, given the nature of time in Heaven (i.e an Eternal Now) my guess would be you could do it in whatever level of solitude you so wished.

My other guess is that you would not feel the need to, as God is more amazing than any star birth or meteor shower.

 

[Laughing_Crow]

If wishes were horses mate.

Heaven is different to what we think it will be. In Heaven all curiosities and desires will have been satisfied. We will no longer need anything, we will be there, with God for all eternity.

If we wanted to observe stars forming etc, given the nature of time in Heaven (i.e an Eternal Now) my guess would be you could do it in whatever level of solitude you so wished.

My other guess is that you would not feel the need to, as God is more amazing than any star birth or meteor shower.

There is always a need to know more, humans naturally seek knowledge they do not have, opr at least that is what I believe. I think im like a fictional character ‘Ahriman’ someone who seeks an impossible task of understanding ‘Tzeentch,’ the God of change and plotting. An impossible task that will never be completed, but one that we still strive towards.

Weird comparison I know, but I know that I am not a person who is satisfied with yes and no, but instead the ‘why,how,when,where and what’

 

[LDNCatholic]

There is always a need to know more, humans naturally seek knowledge they do not have, opr at least that is what I believe. I think im like a fictional character ‘Ahriman’ someone who seeks an impossible task of understanding ‘Tzeentch,’ the God of change and plotting. An impossible task that will never be completed, but one that we still strive towards.

Weird comparison I know, but I know that I am not a person who is satisfied with yes and no, but instead the ‘why,how,when,where and what’

In heaven we will be made perfect. There will be no need to attain more knowledge. Whether that is because we have no more need for the knowledge or because we will know all we are allowed to know (some things are for God alone), I don’t know.

Not a clue who Tzeench is, but Ahriman is basically the Zoroastrian version of Satan.

 

[Laughing_Crow]

In heaven we will be made perfect. There will be no need to attain more knowledge. Whether that is because we have no more need for the knowledge or because we will know all we are allowed to know (some things are for God alone), I don’t know.

Not a clue who Tzeench is, but Ahriman is basically the Zoroastrian version of Satan.

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ahriman, and I do believe that he was likely inspired by Zoroastrian.

Anyway, We have strayed off topic, as always

Back to my original question, why does ‘rejecting’, though I do feel that is a to strong word for what I feel, ‘god’ send me to hell?