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omgriley
Guest
This is wrong. Christ and Scripture speak about Hell much more often then merely twice, although I think you knew that.
Scripture talks about Hell constantly.
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Scripture talks about Hell constantly.
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setarcos
Guest
Gracias, thanks for your incite.
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setarcos
Guest
The statement must still be incorrect then since the pope apologized for the past transgressions of the church, unless by church you mean some abstract conception which goes beyond the members of which it is comprised. Then again the pope apologized for the Catholic Church making no distinctions.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
My last check various scholars have stated,
Jesus references hell, directly or indirectly, in 60 verses or 3% of what he said.
On the other hand, he references heaven, eternal life or the Kingdom of Heaven in 192 verses, or
10%
The Gospel is about the Good News for man more than about eternal damnation if you don’t get in line.
Jesus didn’t send the Apostles out to warn people about their eternal damnation, but about salvation through Him.
I guess I focus more on hope and trust in God than in fear.
Jim
Jesus references hell, directly or indirectly, in 60 verses or 3% of what he said.
On the other hand, he references heaven, eternal life or the Kingdom of Heaven in 192 verses, or
10%
The Gospel is about the Good News for man more than about eternal damnation if you don’t get in line.
Jesus didn’t send the Apostles out to warn people about their eternal damnation, but about salvation through Him.
I guess I focus more on hope and trust in God than in fear.
Jim
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omgriley
Guest
In the context of my statement, Church means the Magisterium and the declaration of divinely revealed Truths which are eternal and must be held by all the faithful. In this sense the Church is never wrong. The Church is a divine institution and thus survives by Her Divine Spouse, Christ. The falible humans who are entrusted to bring the Church to the world indeed can make mistakes and often do. This is what Francis refers to when he apologizes for the wrongdoings people in the Church have committed in the past.
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stpurl
Guest
I see you’re quoting Fr. Richard Rohr. . . A very interesting person but in order to be balanced, how about including a quote from another equally respected theologian. . .even somebody ‘contemporary’ such as Fr. Rohr. . .how about Dietrich von Hildebrant’s work like "Trojan Horse in the City of God?’ I’m so intrigued by some of the talk about it that I’ll be purchasing it pretty soon; once I read and pray about it perhaps you’d care to discuss it?
Until then, I did just finish Peter Kwasniewski’s "Noble Beauty, Transcendent Holiness: Why the Modern Age needs the Mass of Ages’. . . which has itself some interesting insights into modern spirituality. . .
Until then, I did just finish Peter Kwasniewski’s "Noble Beauty, Transcendent Holiness: Why the Modern Age needs the Mass of Ages’. . . which has itself some interesting insights into modern spirituality. . .
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
How about Pope Benedict XVI ?
In his book, “Jesus of Nazereth From the Baptism in the Jordan to the Transfiguration” Volume I, page
47,
The point isn’t to try and deny the existence of hell. However, the focus of our faith is in the hope and trust of God’s mercy so that we will be part of His Kingdom, which begins here and now BTW, not just after we die.
Jim
In his book, “Jesus of Nazereth From the Baptism in the Jordan to the Transfiguration” Volume I, page
47,
Then of course is Pope Benedict’s Encyclical, Spe Salvi
Spe salvi (November 30, 2007) | BENEDICT XVI
The point isn’t to try and deny the existence of hell. However, the focus of our faith is in the hope and trust of God’s mercy so that we will be part of His Kingdom, which begins here and now BTW, not just after we die.
Jim
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irishcolleen45
Guest
Does anyone grasps the concept of eternity? I cannot.
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setarcos
Guest
This sounds like equivocation. Sometimes the church is only the magisterium? Some of the behaviors that the pope apologized for were done by or due to the understanding of church doctrine passed on from the magisterium and with the cooperation of the magisterium. So how is it that the magisterium wasn’t wrong in their actions if they originated from their own understanding? I realize you believe that the divine revelation given to them must be separated from their imperfect humanity but it is quite apparent in the apologies that their humanity is the motivating factor in how they’ve acted according to their interpretations in the first place.
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setarcos
Guest
Yes, take a hammer, put your thumb on a counter, then smash it. Eternity is the time between doing the last and being able to see straight again.
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setarcos
Guest
I still cannot understand defining Gods being as love and his sustaining a hell through eternity. Thoughts?
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omgriley
Guest
What are you talking about? What specific actions did the pope apologize? Do you even know what the Magisterium is?
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wheels10
Guest
I think eternity is more easily understood before one learns about death. Can you remember your childhood before you learned about death?
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wheels10
Guest
I understand it this way. If one does not love God, then one does not wish to be with God. God will not force anyone to be with Him. Love does not force anyone. Love is a free choice.
Without God, without Love, you get everything that exists without God, everything that is in opposition to God, that is Hell.
Without God, without Love, you get everything that exists without God, everything that is in opposition to God, that is Hell.
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2towers
Guest
Must be nice. I have to have both. I wish I could have just the carrot, unfortunately, this sinner sometimes has to have a good old fashioned wack with the stick of fear!
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Teek
Guest
That has not been my experience. I have been focused on sin management—which leads me to cherish and gratefully acknowledge the depths of God’s mercy. Because of this, I now see others (that I might have judged before as being less worthy in some way) as at least as worthy. If God can forgive me He can forgive anyone! If He loves me, and He loves them, and He wants me to love them: done! He deserves at least that gift! BECAUSE of my sinfulness.
Why would recognizing the ways that you fail God make you more critical of others? It leads to humility, not pride!
And you can’t fix what you don’t know is broken…
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Teek
Guest
Free will.
If we don’t have a choice we are slaves. Slaves to love would be more pleasant than slaves to fear: but it is still slavery. In order to have a choice, there has to be a result of that choice.
God says: if you want to go to Heaven, choose me: to choose me, do these things, and don’t do these other things. And you do the wrong things. And God says, “You rejected me. But you are going to Heaven anyway.” Would you then have free will? What would be the point of all of the struggle if it didn’t matter what you did anyway?
He loves us enough to respect our free will, and respect it in truth.
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guanophore
Guest
I think that both things are true. We are saved from sins so that we may enter into a relationship with Him, and join Him in heaven, not only to avoid the pains of hell.
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;” I Pet. 2;9
“that you may” is an indication of what we are saved “for”, our identity and new mission in life.
All of Jesus parables about the Kingdom reveal what we are saved “from”, and what we are saved “for”.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[a]—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life."Eph 2
The loss of this concept has been a great wound to the gospel, as we now have possibly millions of souls who believe, or have believed that all they need to do is pray the sinners prayer, and they will avoid hell. This is a lie. Jesus saved us so that we can live the obedience of faith, so that we can engage in the good works which he has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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omgriley
Guest
The passage from Ephesians 2 describes what man is made for (not saved for) —as in what God originally intended for humanity prior to saving us.
I think you make some really good points, and I’m not disputing that God’s positive will is for all men to have union with Him. I would just humbly note that the term “saved” necessarily implies an initial danger.
One is saved from a house fire.
I think you make some really good points, and I’m not disputing that God’s positive will is for all men to have union with Him. I would just humbly note that the term “saved” necessarily implies an initial danger.
One is saved from a house fire.
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guanophore
Guest
Right. I was not arguing otherwise. I just think that both things are true. Since the Fall, mankind must be saved from the bondage of sin in order to be able to fulfill the intentions God has for us.
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