Don Bosco's vision of Hell

[setarcos]

Well, I sat and thought about that one for a few minutes, and I still haven’t decided how I want to approach it. Maybe whoever, or whatever is controlling me put me on hold.

Modern scientific equipment has enabled unprecedented access to studying the brain/mind in real time. fMRI’s for instance have shown that brain activity starts before awareness. Who or what starts this process? What ever it is is the actuator of your will before you are aware what your will is consequently acting on it. Your will is an after thought catching up to reality.
Delegating you will to the soul so it may hide from scrutiny is a meaningless endeavor since the will is manifested in reality through observable action. If your observable action can be shown to be manipulated then by direct correlation so can your will.

The rest of physical creation gives God glory by being what He created them to be. You get to give God glory by what you choose to be, because He created you in His image and likeness.

I cant emphasize this enough, we don’t get to choose who we will be. God does. We are just enacting the cards we’ve been dealt. Some are compassionate, some are cold and aloof, some are intelligent, some are less so, some are physically powerful, some are diseased. Some are wise, some are fools. Some are saved, some are damned.

You get to give God glory by what you choose to be, because He created you in His image and likeness.

Those who do, give God glory because that is what they were created to do. We were created in His image but the image isn’t the thing it is the image of. The image is only given meaning from the truth it itself isn’t but is only a pale reflection of.

 

[setarcos]

And so God has written from the beginning…the choices we make are the choices that were made from the first of creation. Will you serve the LORD or not? Only God knows, and if you think YOU know then it would be only because of this.

 

[setarcos]

He created us for His glory, yes, but it is more complicated than that, because He is Love. Being who He is is the pinnacle of Glory: and He is love. He is not a controlling God, but a God that offers us a choice. He made us to know, love, and serve Him. All of us—every single one of us was made for this. There is no real love without free will because there is no choice, and Love is a free gift of self. And there are those that choose not to serve Him, not to love Him. So there is a real choice.

Is it? I think you misunderstand Love as it relates to God and our actions. Love is not a choice. It is a state of being. Our actions reflect that state.
God is not only the pinnacle of Glory he is the only one who’s glory is demanded of his being. Believe me when I say God is always in control. Before you were even born your actions were known and provided for.
Love is a grace given to man by God. You can no more create your own state of love than you could create hate for a wife who you love now and who loves you back simply by your actions. Given an absolute even playing field which “free will” requires, why would a person choose to do something detrimental to their existence? Especially if we were made to pursue the good? Why is one will able to overcome temptation and another not? If I am made with self preservation as part of my nature, given a choice to choose freely between having all my needs met and living forever without fear of harm or unhappiness why would I ever choose to jump into the fire? How is it that the water would struggle to climb up hill when its nature is to flow down the hill according to the laws of gravity?

 

[setarcos]

If I cannot choose, I cannot be at fault. There are legal cases where a person is not considered at fault because of diminished free will due to emotional factors, or psychological factors. There is a strong moral argument for diminished culpability due to the inability to freely choose to sin or avoid sin. However, there remains a vast majority of cases in which a person is considered to have made an evil choice, a bad choice, to have committed a wrong, and therefor there is guilt.

I’ve said all along we are not on an even playing field. We never were. One mans disease is another mans ignorance is another mans manipulation etc. The level of capability to exercise ones “free will” and thus ones culpability is always considered within the reference frame which defines it. “Free will” is deemed to be compromised in a setting in which the person has a disease which is recognized by specialists however if the soul is the seat of what enables our free will which itself should not be capable of being altered by physical processes what then are we to say of the persons free will? We would have to say the souls will to a degree is dictated by these physical processes. In other words the will is manifested to the degree that these processes dictate it to be manifested. Even in a healthy person one has to be aware in order to exercise free will. So where does our thoughts which we become aware of and act on come from? They spring fully formed out of some unknown void. You are not aware of your next thought until it is formed fully within your mind. Who or what puts it there? Its not you. You don’t look around in some sack for the words you will use in your next sentence, they are just there when you think them. This belies the existence of true Free will. You cannot exercise your will until the awareness to do so is given to you. Are we mere automatons acting out our programming? I don’t know, but if we are its in our programming to not be aware of it like we are not even aware of driving home after work sometimes until we get there.

 

[Teek]

On the one hand we presumably have God himself saying he will not share his glory, on the other we have Paul hoping he will. Who do we believe, Paul or God?

Jesus is God. Paul and Jesus agreed.

Reread Isaiah.

Isaiah is relating God’s message after His people have betrayed Him. He is saying that He is staying His hand, not because they deserve it after abandoning Him, but because they carry His name. It’s a divine guilt trip. A parenting technique. Then he goes on in chapter 49 to talk about how He will still redeem them, even though they dishonored Him. Again.

Isaiah does not contradict Paul and Peter.

 

[Teek]

You need to reword this. It is illogical to say we are held accountable …whether we are held accountable.

That isn’t what I said.

A child who believes he did nothing wrong when he steals just because he wasn’t caught is incorrect.

Yes, because God has defined a right and a wrong for us to follow. If there was no God, there would be no right or wrong, no accountability for choices.

That is what I said that you protested to so vehemently.

 

[Teek]

you cannot say that your soul is somehow insulated from neurological studies of behavior.

Show me the scientific proof for the soul. It is spiritual, not physical. That is what I meant by a soul that is not subject to neurological studies.

If there is no free will, why are you wasting time arguing with me? God would, in essence, since we are both His puppets, be arguing with Himself. We should leave ourselves alone.

 

[Teek]

In order to have a truly free will one must be self aware of the source of all factors which motivates ones will to act at all times. In order for this to occur one would have to be a God. God cannot create true freedom without creating other Gods.

The Catechism says it better than I ever could.

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

1744 Freedom is the power to act or not to act, and so to perform deliberate acts of one’s own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God, the sovereign Good.

1745 Freedom characterizes properly human acts. It makes the human being responsible for acts of which he is the voluntary agent. His deliberate acts properly belong to him.

 

[goout]

JimR-OCDS:

As Dr Scott Hahn recently said something to the effect of, salvation isn’t what we’re saved “from,” but what we’re saved “for.”

Well the good Dr. is sadly mistaken. You do not get save “for” something. In order to be saved there must necessarily be something to be saved “from” That’s how it works. To say people are saved “for” something is just sentimentalism meant to tickle people’s ears.

Disagree.
Christianity is about the good. Christ is the good. He did not come to establish slavish fear. He came to reclaim us for himself, for our beatitudei. Christ offers us much more than avoidance.

 

[Teek]

What ever it is is the actuator of your will before you are aware what your will is consequently acting on it. Your will is an after thought catching up to reality.

How do they measure the moment the will is engaged versus the moment of neurological awareness,especially when there are no measurements that can be taken directly on the soul?

You are the actuator of your will.

 

[Teek]

I cant emphasize this enough, we don’t get to choose who we will be. God does. We are just enacting the cards we’ve been dealt. Some are compassionate, some are cold and aloof, some are intelligent, some are less so, some are physically powerful, some are diseased. Some are wise, some are fools. Some are saved, some are damned.

Then you have robbed yourself of meaning and purpose. You are so much more than any of that!

 

[Teek]

We were created in His image but the image isn’t the thing it is the image of.

That part of the Catechism is well worth reading. I don’t think your comments express the fullness of the meaning of the “image and likeness of God.”

1704 The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection “in seeking and loving what is true and good.”

1705 By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will, man is endowed with freedom, an “outstanding manifestation of the divine image.”

 

[Teek]

Will you serve the LORD or not? Only God knows, and if you think YOU know then it would be only because of this.

I have faith in His promises, and I have hope because of them that I have been given the ability to choose to serve the Lord. You are right that only the Lord knows if I will be successful. But that is not because I am being controlled. It is because I can still change direction at will. At my own will. Which will have consequences.

 

[Teek]

Given an absolute even playing field which “free will” requires, why would a person choose to do something detrimental to their existence? Especially if we were made to pursue the good? Why is one will able to overcome temptation and another not? If I am made with self preservation as part of my nature, given a choice to choose freely between having all my needs met and living forever without fear of harm or unhappiness why would I ever choose to jump into the fire? How is it that the water would struggle to climb up hill when its nature is to flow down the hill according to the laws of gravity?

Those are the consequence of the Fall. Disharmony within ourselves, between mankind and creation, between our own self and the rest of mankind. The reason we need a Savior.

 

[Teek]

You cannot exercise your will until the awareness to do so is given to you.

We were created that way. It was given to us with our soul.

 

[setarcos]

The statement is clear. “I will share my glory with no one”. There is no qualifying remark here dealing only with a specific set of circumstances. The remark was made in keeping with theme of the bible which is you cannot share in Gods glory simply because no one can approach the glory of God. Gods glory is not a trophy which can be shared amongst different entities because they have shown the perfection in some things that God has in all things. All of creation is for and tends to the glorification of God alone. Man can at most share in an image of Gods glory through his glorifying God unless you believe that man can attain the perfection of God in some manner? Human beings are not God. The glory of a human being is in glorifying his creator. The glory of God is in his perfection. How can you share in the Glory of God if nothing is done of your own accord?

 

[setarcos]

We are accountable for our actions because we chose that action—whether we are held accountable or not.

This is your exact sentence. You did say that.

A child who believes he did nothing wrong when he steals just because he wasn’t caught is incorrect.

You are basing this conclusion on a frame of reference which has established stealing to be wrong. We must ask ourselves, is there anything inherent within the rule that is independent of Gods frame of reference. In other words is stealing in and of itself, independent of any rules or laws establishing consequences, something that declares the child who does it, wrong?
This is what I said;

If there is no one or no thing to define accountability then there is no fault in ones actions. However, because we believe in an existent God who defines accountability and is omniscient unfortunately for the child though he may believe he didn’t get caught and consequently will have no accountability he did not and will.

Why do you believe that in the absence of a God man has no ability to establish what is right and what is wrong? Think about in what way accountability is dependent on God. Enforcement? Man can enforce. The inherent disharmony stealing may bring to a community? Man can and has reasoned himself to that conclusion. The fact is that there is no reason the mere existence of God establishes stealing to be wrong. Only the ability to perfectly establish and enforce his laws makes it so, and even though this is the case the consequences of stealing in and of itself does not keep men from stealing. It is only God who defines and postpones the apparent consequences of stealing upon those that would. The act itself does not make stealing wrong, only the consequences imposed by God upon those who would oppose his will does. Dependent upon the childs level of development he may believe he did nothing wrong upon not getting caught simply because he hasn’t the spiritual or conceptual maturity to comprehend an existent all seeing God. Now if the framework has been established by the parents as to what is right and wrong concerning stealing then the child may feel a sense of guilt over having opposed his parents wishes even though he wasn’t caught but the guilt is derived, not from the stealing itself, but from opposing the parents wishes. There is no reason why guilt cannot be established independent of God through cultural experience of accountability. There is no difference, except in degree of perfection, between if God says do not touch that stove burner, if you do you will be held accountable and a man saying to his child the same having learned through experience accountability.

 

[setarcos]

The Roman Catholic Church itself says the soul is of one nature with the body. It is the animating principle and projective apparatus of the will. The two are intimately intertwined. If this is so, science by studying this projective apparatus of the will can make assumptions about the will. Jesus came to save Mankind, comprised of both a body and a soul in one human nature. Jesus did not come to simply save the soul. If so it would make Christ’s sacrifice as TRUE man with a TRUE mans nature comprised of both body and soul, empty and meaningless. Scripture says we will be given new bodies, perfected. It doesn’t say we will discard our bodies totally.

If there is no free will, why are you wasting time arguing with me? God would, in essence, since we are both His puppets, be arguing with Himself. We should leave ourselves alone.

Think about what your saying here. If there is no free will I am simply doing the will of whoever is willing me to discuss this with you. Getting rid of free will does not get rid of the possibility of discussion, no more so that saying the lower animals have no soul therefore can make no animated decisions. Ultimately God is in discussion with himself. God is the only truly real thing existent, all other things exist only within his will and sustaining purposes.

 

[setarcos]

These are not arguments. these are statements of belief defining terms which may be discussed as to their validity.

 

[setarcos]

IF the will is manifested from the soul and actualized in the body science through the use of modern medical monitoring tools has determined a direct connection between awareness and activities within the brain. It doesn’t matter if the soul is the “person” behind the curtain, by studying the movements of the curtain science can determine the activation of the will, since the will and body are of one nature any will of the soul is manifest in the actions of the body. If not what sin confessed and acted out could be made in order that we require Salvation as human beings? It has been shown by recording times between a request, the awareness of what the request is, and the decision to act in a certain manner based on the request, that awareness is secondary to action, sometimes up to several seconds in difference. Its as if I asked you to choose between chocolate and vanilla and your brains centers of action activate in selection before the centers of your brain indicating awareness of the choice you’ve made activates. Typically we are “unaware” of these discrepancies because of the times involved, sometimes milliseconds.