Donald Trump Jr emails show Russia communication

[josie_L]

If Trump were undermined by Russia in any way, I’m sure we’d hear about it from Trump.

Still waiting…

You need to read the article I posted above to understand my commentary.

 

[jesucated]

Just because something sounds outlandish, does not make it untrue or impossible, fact is stranger than fiction as they say.

p.s. And think of all the Communists that infiltrated many institutions in the U.S., and recall, how people in those times (including the media), thought this was outlandish too? But they were proved right, when Communism fell, and the Russian archives were opened?

Outlandish things are sometimes true, but that is not a valid/sound argument that anything you are saying here makes sense. Your posts read as your being committed so fully to not being wrong in regards to things you’ve said in the past that you will posit any unsubstantiated theory you can think of.

Finally, are you suggesting that the take away from history was McCarthy was right?

 

[dvdjs]

What a wicked web.

washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/07/14/this-nbc-news-scoop-is-another-big-blow-to-the-trump-camps-russia-spin/?utm_term=.b2c670df8190

Transparency, FAKE.
And worse after months of total denial.

Krauthammer:
Bungled collusion is still collusion

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.
…
I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents…

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.

washingtonpost.com/opinions/bungled-collusion-is-still-collusion/2017/07/13/68c7f72a-67f3-11e7-8eb5-cbccc2e7bfbf_story.html?utm_term=.35ce7b1a582b

 

[Luke6_37]

What a wicked web.

washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/07/14/this-nbc-news-scoop-is-another-big-blow-to-the-trump-camps-russia-spin/?utm_term=.b2c670df8190

Transparency, FAKE.
And worse after months of total denial.

Krauthammer:
Bungled collusion is still collusion

washingtonpost.com/opinions/bungled-collusion-is-still-collusion/2017/07/13/68c7f72a-67f3-11e7-8eb5-cbccc2e7bfbf_story.html?utm_term=.35ce7b1a582b

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.

BOOM! Go Charlie baby! :tiphat: This does my heart good.

 

[Luke6_37]

I cannot believe people who are willing to believe Russia helped Trump win the presidential election, can also simultaneously believe and use “Russian government sources” to undermine Trump? So the very government believed to have helped Trump are simultaneously undermining it!!! What the… . . this is illogical to say the least.

You don’t think Putin is capable of simultaneously helping Trump win the election and collecting dirt on him to use as leverage once he is in the White House?

That is seriously naive. Especially since the dossier you keep referencing says just that:

*The 35-page dossier claims that Russia is in possession of damaging or embarrassing information about Trump which could be used for purposes of blackmail to get Trump to cooperate with the Russian government. The material includes allegations about Trump’s sexual and financial dealings in Russia. The dossier further alleges that Trump has been cultivated and supported by Russia for at least five years, with Putin’s endorsement, with the overall aim of creating divisions between Western alliances; that Trump has extensive ties to Russia; and that there had been multiple contacts between Russian officials and people working for Trump during the campaign.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier*

Furthermore, the dossier is not a “Russian government source” but was compiled by private businessmen doing opposition research on Trump - initially Republicans and then later Democrats.

Maybe you’d be less outraged if you bothered to get the facts right.

 

[josie_L]

Outlandish things are sometimes true, but that is not a valid/sound argument that anything you are saying here makes sense. Your posts read as your being committed so fully to not being wrong in regards to things you’ve said in the past that you will posit any unsubstantiated theory you can think of.

Finally, are you suggesting that the take away from history was McCarthy was right?

McCarthy was right in believing that Communists were infiltrating American institutions, but wrong, when it came to his tactics.

And you can disregard what I say by putting me on ignore, doesn’t bother me, But I won’t stop using my ability to reason and put the pieces of this very complicated puzzle together simply because you don’t like or believe it.

 

[josie_L]

You don’t think Putin is capable of simultaneously helping Trump win the election and collecting dirt on him to use as leverage once he is in the White House?

That is seriously naive. Especially since the dossier you keep referencing says just that:

*The 35-page dossier claims that Russia is in possession of damaging or embarrassing information about Trump which could be used for purposes of blackmail to get Trump to cooperate with the Russian government. The material includes allegations about Trump’s sexual and financial dealings in Russia. The dossier further alleges that Trump has been cultivated and supported by Russia for at least five years, with Putin’s endorsement, with the overall aim of creating divisions between Western alliances; that Trump has extensive ties to Russia; and that there had been multiple contacts between Russian officials and people working for Trump during the campaign.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier*

Furthermore, the dossier is not a “Russian government source” but was compiled by private businessmen doing opposition research on Trump - initially Republicans and then later Democrats.

Maybe you’d be less outraged if you bothered to get the facts right.

No, the person who compiled this information was a Christopher Steele, an intelligence agent/spy, and he himself states that these sources come from Russian government officials, in fact, I quoted a whole article from the Washington Times. Please do read it.

So yes, I can’t believe that the people who are claiming that Russia is in cahoots with Trump, also TRUST unverified “Russian government sources” to prove that Trump is corrupt and immoral.

 

[josie_L]

What a wicked web.

washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/07/14/this-nbc-news-scoop-is-another-big-blow-to-the-trump-camps-russia-spin/?utm_term=.b2c670df8190

Transparency, FAKE.
And worse after months of total denial.

Krauthammer:
Bungled collusion is still collusion

washingtonpost.com/opinions/bungled-collusion-is-still-collusion/2017/07/13/68c7f72a-67f3-11e7-8eb5-cbccc2e7bfbf_story.html?utm_term=.35ce7b1a582b

And how does this change the fact that Democrats consorted with the Russians too, if even, indirectly, when they used “Russian government sources” to smear Trump and his campaign???

Were they not also using foreign sources to deliver dirt on their opponents?

 

[lmachine]

I have to say I remain very impressed with Trump Jr.'s transparency.

I also feel very sorry that with the reporting of additional Russians in the meeting Jared Kushner will have to revise and resubmit his SF-86 again. It must be really annoying to have to be honest on your security clearance application. I sure hope he doesn’t get charged with perjury.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have to say I remain very impressed with Trump Jr.'s transparency.

I also feel very sorry that with the reporting of additional Russians in the meeting Jared Kushner will have to revise and resubmit his SF-86 again. It must be really annoying to have to be honest on your security clearance application. I sure hope he doesn’t get charged with perjury.

Could be, but I think it’s a matter of interpretation. Maybe question 20B.6? Maybe not. The questionnaire asks for a judgment whether (among other things) a person met with a representative of a foreign government with which he shares “common interests”.

At some point, it was fairly clear that Velesnitskaya was not a representative of a foreign government and that he shared no common interests with her. Did he think both things before the meeting? Maybe, but we don’t know what the intermediate conversation with Emin disclosed about the woman. Possibly Emin knew she wasn’t actually a Russian government functionary (except to the extent probably all Russian nationals of consequence in the U.S. are, potentially) Did he tell Trump Jr she was really a lawyer/lobbyist, and did Trump Jr tell Kushner? Was the obviously misinformed Goldstone the only one who ever thought she was a government functionary?

Certainly, at the end of the meeting it was clear they shared no common interests. So, in answering the inquiry, does one say what one thought might be so, or what the reality was? If it was the reality stated later, then not putting her on the form was correct. If one interprets the question to inquire about an expectation that didn’t turn out, then it wasn’t.

 

[Luke6_37]

No, the person who compiled this information was a Christopher Steele, an intelligence agent/spy, and he himself states that these sources come from Russian government officials, in fact, I quoted a whole article from the Washington Times. Please do read it.

So yes, I can’t believe that the people who are claiming that Russia is in cahoots with Trump, also TRUST unverified “Russian government sources” to prove that Trump is corrupt and immoral.

You are failing to differentiate between “the source of the intelligence” and “the source providing the intelligence”.

The “source of the intelligence” in both cases may well be Russian espionage. Russians collecting dirt on both Trump and Clinton.

However, the “source providing the intelligence” is different in each case:

1. 
   *]Donald Jr. was offered intelligence that came directly from Russian operatives as part of the Russian governments support of the Trump campaign.
   
   *]Christopher Steele, a former British spy turned private businessman who compiled the dossier, was hired by Never-Trump Republicans to find out what dirt the Russians might have on Trump.
   
   The difference between #1 and #2 is the difference between colluding with a foreign adversary to influence an election, and taking advantage of intelligence collected by a foreign adversary to influence an election.

 

[josie_L]

You are failing to differentiate between “the source of the intelligence” and “the source providing the intelligence”.

The “source of the intelligence” in both cases may well be Russian espionage. Russians collecting dirt on both Trump and Clinton.

However, the “source providing the intelligence” is different in each case:

1. 
   *]Donald Jr. was offered intelligence that came directly from Russian operatives as part of the Russian governments support of the Trump campaign.
   
   *]Christopher Steele, a former British spy turned private businessman who compiled the dossier, was hired by Never-Trump Republicans to find out what dirt the Russians might have on Trump.
   
   The difference between #1 and #2 is the difference between colluding with a foreign adversary to influence an election, and taking advantage of intelligence collected by a foreign adversary to influence an election.

1. 
   So because Christopher Steele acted like a middleman for the Democrats to use this fake dossier (and he was paid by Fusion GPS), it was okay to use said sources, from what you claim is a foreign adversary??
   

   While the mainstream news media hunts for evidence of Trump-Russia collusion, the public record shows that Democrats have willfully used Moscow disinformation to influence the presidential election against Donald Trump and attack his administration.

   The disinformation came in the form of a Russian-fed dossier written by former British intelligence agent Christopher Steele. It contains a series of unverified criminal charges against Mr. Trump’s campaign aides, such as coordinating Moscow’s hacking of Democratic Party computers.

   Some Democrats have widely circulated the discredited information**. Mr. Steele was paid by the Democrat-funded opposition research firm Fusion GPS with money from a Hillary Clinton backer. Fusion GPS distributed the dossier among Democrats and journalists. **

   The information fell into the hands of the FBI, which used it in part to investigate Mr. Trump’s campaign aides.

   washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/11/democrats-spread-false-russian-information-on-trum/

   Can I ask you why the co-founder of Fusion GPS (the agency used by Hillary’s campaign), Glenn Smith, is refusing to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee?

 

[Luke6_37]

So because Christopher Steele acted like a middleman for the Democrats to use this fake dossier (and he was paid by Fusion GPS), it was okay to use said sources, from what you claim is a foreign adversary??

Yes!

Can I ask you why the co-founder of Fusion GPS (the agency used by Hillary’s campaign), Glenn Smith, is refusing to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee?

I have no idea - never heard of it.

 

[josie_L]

Yes!

Wait, I made a mistake, I should have said Fusion GPS who commissioned Christopher Steele to create the Russian dossier and who was also hired by Hillary’s campaign, didn’t break the law? So if Trump had hired someone to find dirt on Hillary and that someone happened to be Veselnitskaya, (Russian source) it would have been okay, but because Trump Jr. was solicited, it wasn’t?

I have no idea - never heard of it.

506​

 

[YADA]

Yes!

I have no idea - never heard of it.

Isn’t Christopher Steele a foreign agent … That would make this just as bad … its any foreigner - not just Russians … But as usual - this is a standard that only involves non Democrats … if you are a Democrat you can take money from Russians, meet with Russians, be paid for speeches to and by Russians, and you can pay Brits to pay Russians to provide dirt on your opponents …

You can even dig up dirt and conspire against your opponent by attacking their wives [Ala Bernie;s wife] and that is not dirty politics …

The only people not allowed to conduct opposition intel are Republicans and Conservatives …

Got it …

 

[josie_L]

Isn’t Christopher Steele a foreign agent … That would make this just as bad … its any foreigner - not just Russians … But as usual - this is a standard that only involves non Democrats … if you are a Democrat you can take money from Russians, meet with Russians, be paid for speeches to and by Russians, and you can pay Brits to pay Russians to provide dirt on your opponents …

You can even dig up dirt and conspire against your opponent by attacking their wives [Ala Bernie;s wife] and that is not dirty politics …

The only people not allowed to conduct opposition intel are Republicans and Conservatives …

Got it …

It’s bizarre the world we are living in.

 

[Luke6_37]

So if Trump had hired someone to find dirt on Hillary and that someone happened to be Veselnitskaya, (Russian source) it would have been okay, but because Trump Jr. was solicited, it wasn’t?

Right. Government bad, private citizen good.

If Veselnitskaya was a private citizen, and Trump solicited her help, then it would be analogous to the situation with Christopher Steele (although one could argue that there is no such thing as a private citizen in Putin’s Russia)

But instead, she was presented as “The Russian government attorney”, which indicated that she worked for the Kremlin.

I believe the most damning bits of text from the emails are these…

“This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump” - Goldstone

*“if it’s what you say I love it” *- Trump Jr.

You may think that isn’t much, but bear in mind that Nixon would have likely been impeached for simply responding with an “ah-huh” on the Watergate tape.

 

[YADA]

Right. Government bad, private citizen good.

If Veselnitskaya was a private citizen, and Trump solicited her help, then it would be analogous to the situation with Christopher Steele (although one could argue that there is no such thing as a private citizen in Puntin’s Russia)

But instead, she was presented as “The Russian government attorney”, which indicated that she worked for the Kremlin.

I believe the most damning bits of text from the emails are these…

“This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump” - Goldstone

*“if it’s what you say I love it” *- Trump Jr.

You may think that isn’t much, but bear in mind that Nixon would have likely been impeached for simply responding with an “ah-huh” on the Watergate tape.

Wasn’t Christopher Steel MI6 … you can spin this all you want - but if it was totally inappropriate, illegal, immoral for Don Trump Jr - or any Republican - it was wrong for the Democrats … and the more information that comes out - the more dirty the Democrats look … [and hypocritical too :sad_yes: … people see that ]

 

[Luke6_37]

Wasn’t Christopher Steel MI6 … you can spin this all you want - but if it was totally inappropriate, illegal, immoral for Don Trump Jr - or any Republican - it was wrong for the Democrats … and the more information that comes out - the more dirty the Democrats look … [and hypocritical too :sad_yes: … people see that ]

Christopher Steel was former MI6 and wasn’t working for a hostile government.

 

[YADA]

Christopher Steel was former MI6 and wasn’t working for a hostile government.

I dont think the law specifies whether foreigners are okay depending on whether their governments are hostile or not - its just states foreigner

And you know that the former “MI6” does not change that he was paid and sent to contact Russian government operatives specifically to get dirt on Trump … and not to mention that some “spies” are always spies … you never really ‘retire’

And of course you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this Russian attorney was then a current Russian government employee and not a ‘former’ one …

Keep splitting hairs …