Donating to non-Catholic ministries

[blessedstar]

fix:

Of course, you did not mean this as it appears?

Yes I do mean it as it appears:

**838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

And

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337** (emphasis mine)

Something can be stated as heresy by the Catholic Church and correctly so, but this does not stop us from recognising the good in others and their journey in faith to God, no-one can be the conscience of the other in that grace is given as free gift of God and no person must condemn another. Working with other Christians is a perfect avenue for others to come to know the fullness of faith Christ offers to those who can perceive it by His grace.

I restate: If someone does a ‘good’ it is purely because it proceeds from God and should not be rejected. As Jesus Himself said ‘he who is for me is not against me’

 

[fix]

blessedstar:

Something can be stated as heresy by the Catholic Church and correctly so, but this does not stop us from recognising the good in others and their journey in faith to God, no-one can be the conscience of the other in that grace is given as free gift of God and no person must condemn another. Working with other Christians is a perfect avenue for others to come to know the fullness of faith Christ offers to those who can perceive it by His grace.

I restate: If someone does a ‘good’ it is purely because it proceeds from God and should not be rejected. As Jesus Himself said ‘he who is for me is not against me’

Your statement said there is salvation outside the Church. That is false. None of the quotes you posted say one is saved through anything other than the Church. That does not mean one must be a formal member, but anyone saved is saved through the Church. As our current Pope has being saying very recently we cannot separate Christ from His Church.

 

[fix]

blessedstar:

I restate: If someone does a ‘good’ it is purely because it proceeds from God and should not be rejected. As Jesus Himself said ‘he who is for me is not against me’

That is not the point. We should not support groups that teach things contrary to the faith. We do not have enough information about the particular group in question to make a determination, but simply claiming one is Christian is not enough to put support behind one. A blanket statement in either direction is not helpful. It has to be a case by case basis.

 

[Brian_C]

Here’s one take on salvation outside the church:

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT

 

[johnnykins]

fix:

Originally Posted by blessedstar
I restate: If someone does a ‘good’ it is purely because it proceeds from God and should not be rejected. As Jesus Himself said ‘he who is for me is not against me’

And the “good is?” Spreading error? We are not talking alms here. Reread the OP - it’s an evangelization ministry - NON-CATHOLIC.

I guess if you are not for HIS Church - you are against Him. I’ll agree to that.

 

[blessedstar]

fix:

Your statement said there is salvation outside the Church. That is false. None of the quotes you posted say one is saved through anything other than the Church. That does not mean one must be a formal member, but anyone saved is saved through the Church. As our current Pope has being saying very recently we cannot separate Christ from His Church.

If a person is not a Catholic then they are outside of the Church, but if they are Christian by their very profession of faith in Jesus they fall under the ‘wing’ of the Church, a Christian who does not profess Catholic faith is not a Catholic, still they by the dictates of their conscience by the grace of God may attain salvation. Further to this people who do not know Christ Jesus as Catholics do and are not Christians or do not know of Christ Jesus at all may also attain salvation by God’s grace as a soul cannot be held to what it does not know but only to what it knows.

What I have said is not false and is clearly outlined in the CCC. I suggest you ask your Priest.

 

[Linnyo]

JMJ Theresa:

yes. It really, really matters.

I once was in conversation with an Evangelical lady whose church sent people to Poland to run sports camps. Apparently after these camps, the kids would be directed to an evangelical church in their city. She insisted that these were kids who had no faith life. I asked her why they didn’t direct them to a Catholic Church since most likely this is their family church. She didn’t have an answer.

Here come the Americans with fun and games, giving out presents and pulling the kids into Protestantism.

We need to put more money and resources into spreading the Catholic faith!!! I really doubt that this college ministry is going to send the kids back to their parishes.

I have never seen an RC church evangelising or doing an outreach. The Catholic church members seem to keep to themselves here.

 

[blessedstar]

johnnykins:

And the “good is?” Spreading error? We are not talking alms here. Reread the OP - it’s an evangelization ministry - NON-CATHOLIC.

I guess if you are not for HIS Church - you are against Him. I’ll agree to that.

God uses many tools to bring souls to Himself and even broken and wretched human beings such as ourselves. Recall the Sacred Scripture where the apostles go out and find people casting out demons and preaching the word and ‘they were not one of them’ and the apostles went back to Jesus complaining about this and Jesus told them to let those people be and let them carry on because anyone who professes the name of Jesus and does good works in His name are of Him.

Ok, so there is error in their preachings, ok so they are not Catholic, ok the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ, ok so the Catholic Church is the full and unadulterated truth of God, but the journey in faith is not one that calls all to the fullness of truth, that is a very great grace and blessing indeed and that is the chosen race and the elite, but Jesus Himself said ‘I have others who are not of this flock’ and He must minister to them also.

Jesus tells us not to judge because when we judge we judge the grace He has allotted to each and their capability to embrace grace and the sinner we judge today is the saint of tomorrow.

The whole world should be Catholic, but it’s not and it isn’t because not all have the same gifts and graces. Whilever we create barriers between people in this manner as I have seen in this thread we are not giving thanks to God for the faith He has given to those who do not profess the Catholic faith but do profess Jesus in their alotted degree rather we are spiritual snobs instead of realising that each has a degree and that degree is allotted as such and each must do within their degree the ultimate they can by God’s grace because what is the use of a talent to stick it in the ground and what is the use in sneering at others beliefs? In recalling the parable of the talents we can clearly see that this is not just gifts or capabilities (such as being able to sew or being a mathematical genius or being good at being a mother or father) but also the measure of faith we have been given and it is no good even if we have been given a little faith to stick it in the ground and do nothing with it.

Whilever we do this we have no hope of ever being ‘one’ as Jesus prayed for.

Yes there are many Catholic ministries to support and support them first and foremost we must, but in the interest of Charity to our Christian brothers and sisters we must provide also for them even if their beliefs are not the same as our own.

No-one has hidden the truth, it is in the world for all people to find, it is set very highly on the lampstand for all to see, but if a soul doesn’t see because they do not know it they canonly be held to what they do know, if this wasn’t the case alll of us would be St Teresa’s and St Francis’ but we are each on the journey, each individual and unique and God reaches people in many ways with the ultimate aim of bringing them home to Himself.

I really do see alot of Catholics being alarmed when they see who got to heaven!

 

[johnnykins]

The Church approves of all good things in any religion that leads one to God. By your logic we need to support any and all religious evangelism that has any element of truth whatever. Sign me up to support the various Moslem groups, I guess.

You have simply quoted things you fail to understand. Syncretism is not the end of Catholic soteriology.

 

[blessedstar]

johnnykins:

The Church approves of all good things in any religion that leads one to God. By your logic we need to support any and all religious evangelism that has any element of truth whatever. Sign me up to support the various Moslem groups, I guess.

You have simply quoted things you fail to understand. Syncretism is not the end of Catholic soteriology.

That isn’t what I have said at all, if we are called to the fullness of the truth and we know it to be the truth then we must not turn our backs on it, but those who do not know the truth and cannot ‘see’ or ‘hear’ it but move their spirit to God by Him drawing it towards Him cannot be condemned for that.

I have not said change your faith, the Catholic Church upholds the fullness of Divine Revelation, but by this token, the Church as the seat of all sacramental virtue we must lead the way in demonstrating our human kindness by the grace of God and this cannot be done by pouring gallons of vinegar over other people who do not share our faith, that is the sure way to continued seperation and sometimes violence, what is better is to give gladly a small amount, that little spoon of honey, either in time, money, listening or prayer in the interests of peace and charity. We are not called to despise other Christians even if their teachings are error, we are not called to agree with their teachings but we are called to build up the kingdom of God and do you suggest that is done by pounding the law over someone’s head or do you think we should offer a little in order to make a greater gain?

As St Francis said ‘Master let me understand others rather than be understood’ Only in building understanding do we grow closer to God.

Our late Pontiff had many meetings with many religious leaders, I don’t think he did this to get them all to be Catholic and I don’t think he did it to lecture them on what Catholic teaching is though I am sure doctrine and dogma must have been discussed, but he did this to create unity within human beings, to create peace and greater understanding and because he recognised that humans seek out God naturally because we are embodied spirits and the spirit yearns to find it’s Creator. How that seeking happens depends on many things and God creates people knowing their end, so why do we humans panic so much? Divine Providence is continually in action, so why do we humans trust so little?

Individually we are not another persons conscience, only the Holy Spirit working within them can convict their conscience. We could admonish daily and unless the degree of the soul is such as to convict the soul, it will not be convicted, this conviction will only come about through a great deal of prayer.

We should give, we must give to other people and we must also ourselves evangelise, but I tell you no-one will be evangelised by placing them in the dock and judging them, they will be evangelised by our own actions of love and kindness.

They have asked because they see us as Christian brothers and sisters, otherwise they would not have asked and we must give because we need them to see they are our Christian brothers and sisters. From the small seed a great oak grows.

 

[rlg94086]

Hi Linnyo,

Please buy a copy of this book and share it with everyone in Scotland (it’s a small country right? )
John Paul II and the New Evangelization
*How You Can Bring the Good News to Others *by Ralph Martin and Peter Williamson
aquinasandmore.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Store.ItemDetails/SKU/54464/
We are all called to evangelize:

This book is proof that Catholics are rediscovering the fact that the Catholic church is as essentially ‘evangelical’ as any Protestant denomination."
-Peter Kreeft, author, Making Sense Out of Suffering

Pope John Paul II urged the church repeatedly and persistently to proclaim the gospel to all humanity. This summons to a “new evangelization” characterized his papacy. But what does the new evangelization mean? And who is supposed to evangelize? What is the role of the parish> Of married couples? How do we evangelize teens? And what are the ecumenical dimensions of evangelism?

In this book twenty-two authors address these and many other issues. Cardinal Avery Dulles describes the evangelical shift in the church since Vatican II; those involved in day-to-day evangelism provide practical tips for evangelizing the poor (Sr. Linda Koontz), street evangelism (Leonard Sullivan), using spiritual gifts (Peter Herbeck) and much more.

Linnyo:

I have never seen an RC church evangelising or doing an outreach. The Catholic church members seem to keep to themselves here.

 

[rlg94086]

I know you “agreed to disagree”, but I can’t help myself…

blessedstar:

That isn’t what I have said at all, if we are called to the fullness of the truth and we know it to be the truth then we must not turn our backs on it, but those who do not know the truth and cannot ‘see’ or ‘hear’ it but move their spirit to God by Him drawing it towards Him cannot be condemned for that.

I don’t think anyone condemns them, we just don’t think we should finance them.

I have not said change your faith, the Catholic Church upholds the fullness of Divine Revelation, but by this token, the Church as the seat of all sacramental virtue we must lead the way in demonstrating our human kindness by the grace of God and this cannot be done by pouring gallons of vinegar over other people who do not share our faith, that is the sure way to continued seperation and sometimes violence, what is better is to give gladly a small amount, that little spoon of honey, either in time, money, listening or prayer in the interests of peace and charity. We are not called to despise other Christians even if their teachings are error, we are not called to agree with their teachings but we are called to build up the kingdom of God and do you suggest that is done by pounding the law over someone’s head or do you think we should offer a little in order to make a greater gain?

Who is despising other Christian charities?

As St Francis said ‘Master let me understand others rather than be understood’ Only in building understanding do we grow closer to God.

Our late Pontiff had many meetings with many religious leaders, I don’t think he did this to get them all to be Catholic and I don’t think he did it to lecture them on what Catholic teaching is though I am sure doctrine and dogma must have been discussed, but he did this to create unity within human beings, to create peace and greater understanding and because he recognised that humans seek out God naturally because we are embodied spirits and the spirit yearns to find it’s Creator. How that seeking happens depends on many things and God creates people knowing their end, so why do we humans panic so much? Divine Providence is continually in action, so why do we humans trust so little?

Did our late Pontiff give these religious leaders money for evangelization?

Individually we are not another persons conscience, only the Holy Spirit working within them can convict their conscience. We could admonish daily and unless the degree of the soul is such as to convict the soul, it will not be convicted, this conviction will only come about through a great deal of prayer.

We should give, we must give to other people and we must also ourselves evangelise, but I tell you no-one will be evangelised by placing them in the dock and judging them, they will be evangelised by our own actions of love and kindness.

Again who is judging them or condemning them? Do we judge or condemn by not giving money? That seems strange to me…I guess we have to take our limited resources and make sure we dole them out to every Christian charity known to man, so as not to condemn any of them.

They have asked because they see us as Christian brothers and sisters, otherwise they would not have asked and we must give because we need them to see they are our Christian brothers and sisters. From the small seed a great oak grows.

**We must? Really? So, you feel obligated to give money to any Christian charity who asks?? Why? Don’t you believe some charities are better than others? **

 

[rlg94086]

Congratulations and welcome to the Church!

This sounds like a great ministry, and I’m glad that they are truly inter-denominational. In my experience, it sounds pretty unique for an evangelical-oriented fellowship. As I mentioned in a previous post, the founder of FOCUS had a much different experience, so all groups are not the same.

It sounds similar to some of the Benedictine oblate groups. We have Catholics and non-Catholics who are either oblates or considering oblation with the monastery I used to visit regularly. There are some Catholic vs. non-Catholic disagreements on one of the oblate forums I participate in, but we are all focused on deepening our spirituality with the Benedictine traditions.

God bless,

Robert

LouisvilleCards:

I donate money to InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Most of the staff and administrators are evangelicals, but the organization is truly inter-denominational in that they accept Christians from all traditions and simply encourage them to live out their faith from their heart, and we did have a few actively involved Catholics. One of my friends who is an InterVarsity staff worker plays cello at a Catholic Mass every Sunday morning. (He is Baptist and his church meets on Sunday evenings.) The last two years at the beginning of Lent, he has invited the priest at the Catholic church to speak at InterVarsity about Lent, Easter, and the church seasons, followed by a Q&A session about Catholicism.

I grew up Lutheran, but was never taught anything about having a personal relationship with Christ. That’s the biggest thing I got out of InterVarsity, along with learning how to study the Bible and evangelize. As I continued to grow in Christ and seek the Truth, I eventually chose Catholicism (I’ll be welcomed into the Church this Easter Vigil). Funny thing is, I was unsure about how the InterVarsity staff would react. They were actually glad because they’re starting a chapter at a local Catholic university and wanted me to volunteer to help them there

Catholic ministries should definitely be at the top of our list, but there are some good non-Catholic organizations out there who cooperate with Catholics in their ministries. One in particular I’ve found is United Bible Societies.

 

[blessedstar]

I know you “agreed to disagree”, but I can’t help myself…

**We must? Really? So, you feel obligated to give money to any Christian charity who asks?? Why? Don’t you believe some charities are better than others? **

Well I suppose not if your conscience doesn’t calll you to it.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree, but thank you for your replies to my posts.

 

[fix]

blessedstar:

If a person is not a Catholic then they are outside of the Church, but if they are Christian by their very profession of faith in Jesus they fall under the ‘wing’ of the Church, a Christian who does not profess Catholic faith is not a Catholic, still they by the dictates of their conscience by the grace of God may attain salvation. Further to this people who do not know Christ Jesus as Catholics do and are not Christians or do not know of Christ Jesus at all may also attain salvation by God’s grace as a soul cannot be held to what it does not know but only to what it knows.

What I have said is not false and is clearly outlined in the CCC. I suggest you ask your Priest.

There is no salvation outside the Church. We cannot separate Christ from His Church. People who are not formal members may be saved, but if they are saved it is through the Church whether it is apparent in this life or not.

Wording is critical. You wrote there is salvation outside the Church. If you intend that mean one does not need to be formal member then we have no disagreement.

Perhaps this will help you understand more clearly my point:

1. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.91
   DOMINUS IESUS

Perhaps we are talking past each other? The Church is the only means of salvation. It is possible for non formal members to be saved as you have said, but anyone saved is saved through the Church in some mysterious way. That is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[fix]

johnnykins:

And the “good is?” Spreading error? We are not talking alms here. Reread the OP - it’s an evangelization ministry - NON-CATHOLIC.

I guess if you are not for HIS Church - you are against Him. I’ll agree to that.

That is why I said it must be a case by case basis. Should we cooperate with evil by supporting Christian organizations that teach abortion is licit? Should we fund groups that pass out condoms?

 

[blessedstar]

fix:

There is no salvation outside the Church. We cannot separate Christ from His Church. People who are not formal members may be saved, but if they are saved it is through the Church whether it is apparent in this life or not.

Wording is critical. You wrote there is salvation outside the Church. If you intend that mean one does not need to be formal member then we have no disagreement.

Perhaps this will help you understand more clearly my point:

Perhaps we are talking past each other? The Church is the only means of salvation. It is possible for non formal members to be saved as you have said, but anyone saved is saved through the Church in some mysterious way. That is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Then we are in agreement and thank you for your clarification. I am sorry for the ‘talking at cross purposes’ more probably my fault. I am sorry for the ambiguity construed from the use of my words. The CCC is not ambiguous and clearly states those who are not Catholic can attain salvation however that action comes about. The Non-Catholic status of other Christians does not give us room to feel superior, it gives us a greater duty to others and to God.

 

[blessedstar]

fix:

That is why I said it must be a case by case basis. Should we cooperate with evil by supporting Christian organizations that teach abortion is licit? Should we fund groups that pass out condoms?

We are in agreement here, no Catholic must actively promote an apparent evil such as abortion, but this charities ministry seems to be about spreading the Gospel of Jesus to people who have not heard it, that is not evil. That is one of the many reasons amongst which I have expressed to patronise support for such minsitries.

None on this forum apart from the OP have access to any further details than it is a ministry to spread the Gospel, if this is the case it shouldn’t be opposed. Unless further information is provided to mar the support of this organisation then I remain convicted to what I have said.

 

[johnnykins]

fix:

That is why I said it must be a case by case basis. Should we cooperate with evil by supporting Christian organizations that teach abortion is licit? Should we fund groups that pass out condoms?

We’re in full agreement. I couldn’t tell if you were disagreeing with me or reiterating what I said?

Again, we are in full agreement on this.

 

[johnnykins]

blessedstar:

We are in agreement here, no Catholic must actively promote an apparent evil such as abortion, but this charities ministry seems to be about spreading the Gospel of Jesus to people who have not heard it, that is not evil. That is one of the many reasons amongst which I have expressed to patronise support for such minsitries.

If they are spreading a heretical view of the Gospel - isn’t that evil? These groups almost certainly do not spread the Gospel faithfully - they spread a heretical understanding of the Gospel. Often they spread an anti-catholic message as well. That’s why you should NOT support them.

None on this forum apart from the OP have access to any further details than it is a ministry to spread the Gospel, if this is the case it shouldn’t be opposed. Unless further information is provided to mar the support of this organisation then I remain convicted to what I have said.

The OP makes clear it is a non-Catholic evangelism ministry. The assumption has to be that it is not spreading the Gospel - it is spreading a heretical Gospel.

Acts of corporal mercy, etc., are another story altogether. Moral advocacy, too, is another issue. “Evangelism” by definition is the spread of the Gospel - and if they are Non-Catholic they are heretical.