"Don't follow the Commandments"

[Crazy_Diamond]

Protestant B says: "Catholics worship Mary
Catholic C says: No, we don’t

Protestant B: Yes you do. You pray to her.
Catholic C: It is not the same kind of prayer.

Catholic C then goes on to patiently explain Dulia, etc.

Protestant B: Say what you want. You still worship Mary.
Catholic C rightly replies: I’ve given you an explanation.

To which Protestant B concludes: Isn’t it sad that Catholics just can’t follow a logical argument. If they didn’t reject Sola Scriptura, they’d be able to function rationally.

Still, I appreciate Jimmy B revealing the filter through which he views all of the explanations we’ve provided:

One cannot connect the Christian dots…without first connecting the Catholic dots. Moreover, one cannot truly, understand their own beliefs, when they willingly and knowingly, reject Christian history and Christian traditions.

It is because of this attitude that so many here reject Christian truths found in Catholicism.

And of course, when the sheer weight of evidence begins to crack that assumption, there’s always another response to fall back on.

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/BDX/BDX117/not-listening_~bxp27074.jpg

I’ve run into both Catholic and Protestant apologists on this forum with the same basic approach, but none who so boldly and baldly proclaim it. Big points for honesty, in my book. No points for discourse, but honesty is a worthy trait.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

This whole thread bothers me. I’m definitely Catholic and feel strongly it is the one, true Church, but the lack of charity and mean-spirit that I’ve seen in here is something else.

VARC and JimmyB are out of control in here accusing each other of being heretics, there are nasty videos and insinuations flying. Pretty sad spectacle. I don’t think the Catholic or Protestant sides have benefited from this exchange…

It would have been better if Jimmy B had posted something he believes as a point for discussion, or an actual question about what it is that others actually believe. Trying to trap people never results in greater unity. Trying to trap people certainly doesn’t look anything like

attempting to show …] that, Roman Catholic Christians and non-Catholic Christians have much more in common than not.

Most of our disagreements are based on semantics.

This would have been a much better item for discussion:

It seems to me that there are many here, who do not know what they actually believe or why they believe it and some here, either reject or do not know the source of their own beliefs and do not care.

“Many”, of course, being “Protestants.”

An even better OP would have been:

One cannot connect the Christian dots…without first connecting the Catholic dots.

We could have spent a lot of time finding out exactly what he means by that metaphor. It’s a cute one, for sure.

Better yet, he could have simply said:

Moreover,-] one/-] Protestants cannot truly, understand their own beliefs, when they willingly and knowingly, reject -]Christian/-] Catholic history and -]Christian/-] Catholic traditions.

(editing mine)

Trying to trap us was uncharitable and quite deserving of this judgment:

If the intent is to insult and belittle with a sensational post, then you’ve achieved that.

I get the feeling if she’d been able to say it to his face, she’d’ve peeled paint right off the walls by tone of voice alone. That comment probably should have ended the whole thread.

You made a comment worth discussing:

That proves my point as to why I’m concerned. Christ established His Church, one Church. There are not multiple governors or “takes” on His kingdom. Truth is not relative nor is theology. God cannot be all things to all people or different realities for Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Knox, Wesley, Cranmer, and company. These illustrations only further my confidence that I’ve done the right thing being a Roman Catholic.

Discussing the differences between viewing the True Church as unified through a visible hierarchy versus unified through a common faith would have been much more interesting.

 

[Jimmy_B]

It would have been better if Jimmy B had posted something he believes as a point for discussion, or an actual question about what it is that others actually believe. Trying to trap people never results in greater unity. Trying to trap people certainly doesn’t look anything like

This would have been a much better item for discussion:

“Many”, of course, being “Protestants.”

An even better OP would have been:

We could have spent a lot of time finding out exactly what he means by that metaphor. It’s a cute one, for sure.

Better yet, he could have simply said:

(editing mine)

Trying to trap us was uncharitable and quite deserving of this judgment:

I get the feeling if she’d been able to say it to his face, she’d’ve peeled paint right off the walls by tone of voice alone. That comment probably should have ended the whole thread.

You made a comment worth discussing:

Discussing the differences between viewing the True Church as unified through a visible hierarchy versus unified through a common faith would have been much more interesting.

Hello Crazy Diamond,

Nice editing… (a little sarcasm) .

You are not cynical are you? I think that you already know that I’m a little cynical.

You don’t actually believe that I resemble your remarks…do you?

My metaphor illustrates a historical fact. It is true that “one cannot connect the Christian dots without first connecting the Catholic dots”. You disagree with this statement?

No matter what you say, you know that, every once in a while, you read a post of mine that doesn’t get you worked up, whether you want to admit it or not.

I agree with some of what you post….just don’t tell anybody.

Peace.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Hello Crazy Diamond,

Well, hello Jimmy B!

Nice editing… (a little sarcasm) .

Let me guess… you thought I cut out too much.
Jimmy B;4538113:

You are not cynical are you? I think that you already know that I’m a little cynical.

Policemen usually are. I’ve worked with biologists for nearly twenty years. I’m pretty cynical about them.

You don’t actually believe that I resemble your remarks…do you?

In person? I doubt it. I don’t usually use words like “ecclesiological” in ordinary conversation either. (Besides, most biologists wouldn’t have a clue what that meant.) Makes me look all hoity-toity online, but it’s better to be more specific in writing.

No, if I ever come to LA I’ll probably PM you and buy you a beer. Local microbrew, preferably. Unless wine is your thing.

My metaphor illustrates a historical fact. It is true that “one cannot connect the Christian dots without first connecting the Catholic dots”. You disagree with this statement?

I just don’t know what it means. A “historical fact” to me is “in AD xx Emperor y had the armies invade z.” I’m assuming for now that you mean a history of Christian doctrines and traditions would be incomplete without taking into account the Catholic contribution. The idea that every belief of every Christian derives from Rome can’t be it. The Orthodox would laugh themselves to pieces.

No matter what you say, you know that, every once in a while, you read a post of mine that doesn’t get you worked up, whether you want to admit it or not.

I enjoyed this post.

-]I agree with some of what you post….just don’t tell anybody/-].

It’ll be our secret. See? I crossed it out so no one would know.

Peace.

Peace be with you, Jimmy B. Angels watch over you and yours.

 

[jay12]

I have a little bit of trouble understanding your message…

"Don’t Follow the Commandments”

“Don’t Follow the Commandments”; “Don’t get married”; Don’t go to Church", "Don’t baptize your children and so on and so on…

If you believe that you are “Saved by Grace Alone” then none of the above applies to you…right?

This is especially true for those who are “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS)…right?

Your Thoughts?

 

[Jimmy_B]

…VARC and JimmyB are out of control in here accusing each other of being heretics…

The Purpose of this thread is to shine light on the flawed belief, which is “Once Saved Always Saved”… I never called VARC a heretic. You need to go back and read the posts here.

Peace

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

The Purpose of this thread is to shine light on the flawed belief, which is “Once Saved Always Saved”… I never called VARC a heretic. You need to go back and read the posts here.

Peace

VARC didn’t accuse anyone either, to be fair. The exchange was a bit more subtle than that.

 

[guanophore]

I was thinking about this principle, and today’s readings. This passage:

Eph 4:25-32

25 Therefore, putting away falsehood, let every one speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and give no opportunity to the devil. 28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his hands, so that he may be able to give to those in need. 29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, 32 and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."

Is clearly written to Christians. Why worry about the devil, if you cannot be robbed of salvation? Why be so concerned about following all these commandments, when they have nothing to do with salvation?

So what if, under the old covenant, lying was violation of the commandment. So what, if it is still considered a violation under the New Covenant?

 

[caoindealbhan]

And if you follow the Commandments and get married etc., then you are saved? I don’t think so.

No one knows if they will be saved.  We do know that we can be made more receptive towards the Mercy of God through our choices however.

 Merry Christmas everybody!:christmastree1:

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Is clearly written to Christians. Why worry about the devil, if you cannot be robbed of salvation? Why be so concerned about following all these commandments, when they have nothing to do with salvation?

So far, every tradition I’ve encountered has immature folks who take some aspect of the teaching and think it means they are set and need nothing more. The most common form is: as long as they are “members” of that ecclesial body, they are guaranteed entry to heaven. The second most common is that as long as they hold to one particular phrasing of a belief or set of beliefs (whether they have any idea what it means or not), they’re set.

I don’t know of any traditions that actually teach that good works have zilch to do with entry to heaven, however they may phrase the beliefs that give them confidence.

 

[caoindealbhan]

Have you encountered any mature folks?

Have a Happy New Year too:heaven:

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Have you encountered any mature folks?

Have a Happy New Year too:heaven:

Certainly. However, what’s usually presented on CAF as targets for criticism are the silly versions of a given tradition.

 

[guanophore]

Have you encountered any mature folks?

Have a Happy New Year too:heaven:

I have encountered some who have not fallen into the error of OSAS, but leave judgement to God. The Apostle refers to people of this mind as “mature”.

Phil 3:12-16

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 **Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; **and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

I have encountered some who have not fallen into the error of OSAS, but leave judgement to God. The Apostle refers to people of this mind as “mature”.

Phil 3:12-16

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 **Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; **and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Paul refers to far more than a mere intellectual assent to a non-OSAS mechanism of salvation as “mature.” I know OSAS people who fit this description because they “press on to make [the prize]” their own, and “press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” To them, OSAS is just the beginning. I believe they’re wrong about OSAS, but I’d trade their life of Holy Spirit-inspired service for my own feeble one.

Belief in a particular doctrine can slow you down or speed you up, depending on how it weaves into the whole framework of your life.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Jimmy, I’ve missed your posts and the strawmen you just can’t help positing.

I’ve been a Protestant for 49 years, grew up in the Church affiliated with Wheaton College, and have NEVER heard anyone (other than you trying to bait us) make the claims (or assumptions) you make above.

Most of us try HARD to obey God’s word (and that includes the commandments)

A lot of us get married

A lot of us go to Church

A lot of us are baptized…

What do you think your post accomplishes?

I think what jimmy was trying to say is if you believe the teaching of OSAS you can do as you please and you still get to heaven.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

I think what jimmy was trying to say is if you believe the teaching of OSAS you can do as you please and you still get to heaven.

Yes, you stated his point better than he did. I think we’ve thoroughly trashed the idea that traditions teaching OSAS believe any such nonsense, even if some immature folks say it’s what OSAS means.

 

[Kaninchen]

Just thought I’d do JimmyB a favour and help him ‘bounce’ all his threads to the top.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Just thought I’d do JimmyB a favour and help him ‘bounce’ all his threads to the top.

Lol…is that my Christmas present or my Hanukkah present?

God bless!

 

[Kaninchen]

Lol…is that my Christmas present or my Hanukkah present?

God bless!

I’m not choosy, I’m just sitting around thinking about my Christian friends cooking away (with all those relatives getting in the way) and thought I’d help out here.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Just thought I’d do JimmyB a favour and help him ‘bounce’ all his threads to the top.

So, looking at your signature… is that due to idleness, boredom, or cruelty?