Don't Jews need to be baptize and accept Christ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ite_ad_Ioseph
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Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
No way, there is no way a Jew is closer to God than a Protestant, and in any case Christ, when He said that, was speaking to Christians. Christ in the gospels says that Jews need to recognize him.

Am I the only one who thinks this is modernism?
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Ever heard of “God’s Chosen people?”
That’s basic Church history.
On Good Friday, in the intercessions, we pray for them, specifically.
 
rcwitness said:
Any reference to salvation by non-Christians is always in the context that their is insufficient knowledge of the Gospel. But to know the Gospel, and deny Christ as one and the same God with the Father (of Abraham) is a mortal sin.
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That’s the key tidbit here folks.

If i’m a Muslim and i’ve been told all my life that Christians screwed up the Gospel message, then i have insufficient knowledge of the Gospels. I may know they exist, but i’ve literally been taught since birth that everything in there is a corrupted message of the truth found in the Qur’an.

If i’m a Jew, and i’ve been told and believe that we are still awaiting the Messiah but yeah all these Christians have this book where they believe some rather nice but still very human rabbi from the 2nd temple period was the Son of God… I have insufficient knowledge of the Gospels.

If I’m a Buddhist from Asia, who kind of scratches his head as to why the Westerners killed their own God (or why they even came up with a method of hanging people on planks of wood). Or how the person they claim to be God got gutted like a common criminal (an objection a Chinese Emperor had when the Jesuits first arrived in China), but i know they have this book about the man’s exploits - can it really be said i “know” the Gospels?

BUT - if i’m a guy who turned away from Christianity after having been been inundated in it (properly of course) - then yeah - i’m going to be held to account for that.

In this sense, an Apostate is at a much greater risk of harsh judgment than a man or woman who has never heard of Jesus of Nazareth…
 
TMC said:
I listed the specific teachings. If you want more specificity, look at Lumen Gentium 16 and CC 539. As for the papal statements, you can google that yourself.

But what is your basis for saying Jews cannot be saved?
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That they don’t believe in Jesus Christ.
 
pianistclare said:
Ever heard of “God’s Chosen people?”
That’s basic Church history.
On Good Friday, in the intercessions, we pray for them, specifically.
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Before Vatican II, it was well known that the New Testament superseded the Old Testament.
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
That they don’t believe in Jesus Christ.
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This is what the Church says about that:
From the Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation, however, it does not in any way follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God.
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vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html#5._The_universality_of_salvation_in_Jesus_Christ_and_God’s_unrevoked_covenant_with_Israel
 
TMC said:
This is what the Church says about that:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html#5._The_universality_of_salvation_in_Jesus_Christ_and_God’s_unrevoked_covenant_with_Israel
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We don’t even have to get that technical about the whole Supercessionism issue…
"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
"The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
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Matthew 25: 37-40
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Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
That doesn’t make any sense and sounds like heresy.
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That’s kind of funny Ite…

Per the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, founded first as the Inquisition in order to defend Holy Mother Church from heretics and schismatics…

You have taken upon yourself the teaching authority reserved for Holy Mother Church in clashing with an established doctrine.

And you have no Charism to do as such.

What does that make you? 😛 😉
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
That doesn’t make any sense and sounds like heresy.
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That is the teaching of the Church, my friend. Did you read Lumen Gentium, or the Catechism? This has been the teaching of the Church for a long time, and it is certainly neither nonsense or heresy.
 
Jews can’t be saved (except if they are in invincible ignorance, but that’s another case), and the observance of the Mosaic law is a mortal sin. It’s de fide, according to the council of Florence.
It firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our Lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ’s passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation.** But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation.** Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practice circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.
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It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.
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papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum17.htm
 
Johnathan cahn talks about his conversion to be a christian not a catholic and as he is a prophetic and written prophetic books I would think that anyone who would like the answer .would find him as an example.

But then everyone loves their own opinion.

But I will believe Johnathan cahn. He has evidence of signs and wonders following.

Which most people lack. In Their Opinions.

Protestant or catholic .
 
TMC said:
You might want to check Church teaching from some time in the last 500 years or so.
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Church teaching doesn’t change. What was de fide at Florence is still binding now. And Pius XII quotes it in Mystici Corporis Christi, in 1943.
On the Cross then the Old Law died, soon to be buried and to be a bearer of death. [36]
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w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html

It refers to :
  1. Jerome and Augustine, Epist. CXII, 14 and CXVI, 16: Migne, P.L., XXII, 924 and 943; St. Thos., I-II, q. 103, a. 3, ad 2; a. 4; ad 1; Council of Flor. pro Jacob.: Mansi, XXXI, 1738.
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Correct me if I am wrong Meltzerboy, I just wanted to add, on the High Holidays, there is a yearly service where people are forgiven for sins. I have also heard that in Judaism, that if a sin is committed, and then temptation is resisted three times, the sin is “abated” until the High Holidays service. Have I got my facts straight?😃
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
Before Vatican II, it was well known that the New Testament superseded the Old Testament.
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What is your point?
That we write off all of the Hebrew world now? We don’t. That is an incredibly juvenile statement. The Old Testament foretells, and the New Testament fulfills. But we still want to be called God’s chosen people.They are our spiritual ancestors.
We pray the Psalms at every Mass. There is an OT reading at most of the Masses, (except during the Easter season).
Don’T throw the baby out with the bathwater. :rolleyes:

Our friend Meltzerboy could teach people a valuable history lesson if they were willing to learn.
 
pianistclare said:
What is your point?
That we write off all of the Hebrew world now? We don’t. That is an incredibly juvenile statement. The Old Testament foretells, and the New Testament fulfills. But we still want to be called God’s chosen people.They are our spiritual ancestors.
We pray the Psalms at every Mass. There is an OT reading at most of the Masses, (except during the Easter season).
Don’T throw the baby out with the bathwater. :rolleyes:

Our friend Meltzerboy could teach people a valuable history lesson if they were willing to learn.
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They are not our spiritual ancestors necessarily, since they reject Christ and we love Christ, and God can raise up even stones to be children for Abraham.
 
esieffe said:
I could not agree more. Meltzerboy is a HUGE asset here, and his insights are invaluable.
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I consider him a friend with a charitable attitude here on CAF too.

What I have stated, is that the Church does not teach that a Jewish person, or any other person, who has heard and understands the Gospel message of Jesus of Nazareth, yet denies that He is the divine Son of the Father, can be saved.

I used 1st and 2nd John to support this.

There is a difference with a Jewish who may not be convinced, and one who denies, right?
 
rcwitness said:
I consider him a friend with a charitable attitude here on CAF too.

What I have stated, is that the Church does not teach that a Jewish person, or any other person, who has heard and understands the Gospel message of Jesus of Nazareth, yet denies that He is the divine Son of the Father, can be saved.

I used 1st and 2nd John to support this.

There is a difference with a Jewish who may not be convinced, and one who denies, right?
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This is essentially the state of “Invincible Ignorance” is it not?
 
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