Don't Support Devilish Music(Rock Music)!!!

[Joe_5859]

Well, this topic is getting pretty old and redundant.

I think it reached that point about 600 posts ago.

 

[Joe_5859]

I was watching a television show on cooking, it might have been that Ramsay one or some other competition. Anyway. I have some quotes for you! A conversation between some competitors

“Cooking is sexy”
“Cooking is just like sex!”
“Some things are even designed to look like…”
“Haha”

So, by your reasoning, these people have just condemned cooking - just as the artists you quoted did the same for rock by saying what they said.

Your parallel with these tv cookery programmes cannot be sustained for the simple reason that these shows make no pretence that they are intended to be seen as entertaining fun frolics. Thus one expects the sort of ribald remarks that you refer to as they are are part and parcel of this type of prime-time tawdry tv programme. That this reasoning is also applicable to the face value statements of rock artists respecting their music genre, is anything but crystal clear. Sorry but your analogy is not transparently obvious and so leaves too big a margin for doubt.

With all due respect, I don’t think we can dismiss NewsTheMan’s analogy so quickly. I think it is very apt. For both the cooks and the “rockers” you have those of one profession making comments about how they perceive their craft. The “ribald remarks” of the rockers are also “part and parcel” of what people expected them to say. They make provocative statments like that in interviews because that’s what sells. Same as the TV show.

In both cases, these comments cannot be taken as the be-all-end-all of what it means to be in their profession. All it is is a few people’s hyperbolic personal opinion voiced for the purpose of making headlines and garnering attention.

 

[NewsTheMan]

With all due respect, I don’t think we can dismiss NewsTheMan’s analogy so quickly. I think it is very apt. For both the cooks and the “rockers” you have those of one profession making comments about how they perceive their craft. The “ribald remarks” of the rockers are also “part and parcel” of what people expected them to say. They make provocative statments like that in interviews because that’s what sells. Same as the TV show.

In both cases, these comments cannot be taken as the be-all-end-all of what it means to be in their profession. All it is is a few people’s hyperbolic personal opinion voiced for the purpose of making headlines and garnering attention.

You took the words right outta my mouth (sung of course like Meatloaf )

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I can’t believe someone actually believes this! LOL…What about Metallica? Their beat would promote a lot of bondage and other weird stuff then! LOL

Portrait,

Nice to see you here on CAF again!

I’d just like to say that I am a rock music artist. My rock music isn’t even specifically Christian music, though I am Catholic. But it is good music & promotes Christian values. And I do emphatically deny your theory that the very beat of rock (outside of the lyrics) promotes sex. And I have already debunked it in earlier posts.

Pax,
~Tally Marx

 

[Portrait]

With all due respect, I don’t think we can dismiss NewsTheMan’s analogy so quickly. I think it is very apt. For both the cooks and the “rockers” you have those of one profession making comments about how they perceive their craft. The “ribald remarks” of the rockers are also “part and parcel” of what people expected them to say. They make provocative statments like that in interviews because that’s what sells. Same as the TV show.

In both cases, these comments cannot be taken as the be-all-end-all of what it means to be in their profession. All it is is a few people’s hyperbolic personal opinion voiced for the purpose of making headlines and garnering attention.

Dear Joe,

Cordial greetings. We must stop bumping into one another like this, but in these rock debates its almost unavoidable I suppose. Anyway jolly good to hear from you again and thankyou for your comments.

Whilst I appreciate the point that you and NewsTheMan are making I really do not believe that the parallel is on all fours so to speak. If it was merely a matter of alleged tongue in cheek remarks then the argument might just be feasible, although it would not make their comments any less offensive. However, when one considers that rock music itself has specifically sexual connotations and that many of these leading rock performers use what can only be descibed as downright vulgarity of the worst kind in the lyrics of their songs, then their philosophy of rock cannot be brushed aside as mere “hyperbolic opinion”. It would seem very much to be a case of “out of the abundance of the heart” their mouth speaks and that their filthy and depraved minds really are the inspiration of their obscene compositions. Indeed some of their lyrics are so pornographic and vile that they cannot be cited on a Christian web sight such as this one, suffice to say I would describe them as unfettered evil and sensuality. What is more unsettling is that many professing Christians, including Catholics, actually listen to and defend this despicable sensory material. Shame on them, I say.

Moreover, when you have a trade magazine like Rolling Stone refering to ‘prophylactic rock’ and tunes in the rock media known as ‘masturbatory rock’, then it is next to certain that you have a clear and unmistakeable connection between rock music and sex. Sorry Joe but I really think that that is an ineluctable conclusion with which it is useless to argue against.

Even if they were saying all this for widespread publicity or to evoke a reaction etc, that still does not make objectionable vile lyrics, obscene gestures and deviant sexual claims any more acceptable or permissible and nor does it lessen their impact on the morals of their listeners, especially among the young and impressionable.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[MichaelR]

There is a difference between some rock being vulgar, and all rock being vulgar.

The fact that there is simply so many different genres of music that are now under the ‘rock’ umbrella, or at least counted as ‘rock’ by those who don’t understand the differing genres and what musically differentiates between them, and even then often splintered into sub groups, many of which are nothing alike, shows this to be the case.

 

[Joe_5859]

Dear Joe,

Cordial greetings. We must stop bumping into one another like this, but in these rock debates its almost unavoidable I suppose. Anyway jolly good to hear from you again and thankyou for your comments.

Whilst I appreciate the point that you and NewsTheMan are making I really do not believe that the parallel is on all fours so to speak. If it was merely a matter of alleged tongue in cheek remarks then the argument might just be feasible, although it would not make their comments any less offensive. However, when one considers that rock music itself has specifically sexual connotations and that many of these leading rock performers use what can only be descibed as downright vulgarity of the worst kind in the lyrics of their songs, then their philosophy of rock cannot be brushed aside as mere “hyperbolic opinion”. It would seem very much to be a case of “out of the abundance of the heart” their mouth speaks and that their filthy and depraved minds really are the inspiration of their obscene compositions. Indeed some of their lyrics are so pornographic and vile that they cannot be cited on a Christian web sight such as this one, suffice to say I would describe them as unfettered evil and sensuality. What is more unsettling is that many professing Christians, including Catholics, actually listen to and defend this despicable sensory material. Shame on them, I say.

Moreover, when you have a trade magazine like Rolling Stone refering to ‘prophylactic rock’ and tunes in the rock media known as ‘masturbatory rock’, then it is next to certain that you have a clear and unmistakeable connection between rock music and sex. Sorry Joe but I really think that that is an ineluctable conclusion with which it is useless to argue against.

Even if they were saying all this for widespread publicity or to evoke a reaction etc, that still does not make objectionable vile lyrics, obscene gestures and deviant sexual claims any more acceptable or permissible and nor does it lessen their impact on the morals of their listeners, especially among the young and impressionable.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Yes, we should both go to some thread on Church doctrine where we can agree with each other.

Fair enough. Obviously, any analogy is not going to be 100% analagous. In this case, rockers can often, in addition to these remarks, produce music with lyrics of the same flavor. The cooks, on the other hand, would be hard-pressed to do so. However, the main point being made is that simply because some people perceive their craft in this way or that way is not evidence that they are correct, even if it is their “specialty”.

Take care!

 

[Portrait]

Did you know, Portrait, that the Council Fathers of Trent came within a hairs’ breadth of banning all polyphonic music - music that has different parts for different voices or instruments instead of all voices and instruments singing or playing the same part - from the Mass?

Polyphonic music was considered by many at the time to be, as the Council termed it ‘lascivious and impure’. Why? Because musicians who composed it often took the tunes of secular songs - songs that focused then, as secular music tends to do now, on favourite topics of sex and alcohol - and rehashed them with sacred lyrics.

People were convinced that polyphony couldn’t be divorced from its origins by the interpolation of lyrics on sacred themes.

Guess what? They were WRONG, they realised they were WRONG and they ended up NOT banning polyphonic music. They sensibly realised that polyphony’s ‘lascivious and impure’ origins did NOT render it unfit for use even in the Mass itself, let alone for general use.

Deo Gratias for that. A heartfelt one from me especially, for I dearly love Allegri’s Miserere, the beauty of which the Popes became so jealous of that they banned its performance outside the Vatican for over a century!

Funny that such ‘lascivious and impure’ pieces at the Miserere and the Missae Papae Marcelli have become such beloved, revered and spiritually moving parts of the repertoire.

You can learn much from the wisdom of the Council Fathers of Trent.

Look, I don’t doubt that those musicians said what they said. I don’t doubt that some of them believed it (although equally some of them were probably taking the mick and not expressing their genuine beliefs).

I DO sincerely and rightly doubt that a handful of quotes, albeit from celebrated musicians, is any evidence that an entire genre of music is tainted.

Do you know anything about computers, Portrait? Do you know that back in the day Microsoft founder Bill Gates reportedly said ‘640K software is all the memory anyone will ever need’?

Anyone who has even the most cursory knowledge of computers knows, in hindsight, that it was a pretty dumb thing to say. And more importantly completely wrong. I tell you this to show how little trust can be placed even in the pronouncements of experts, even when they’re talking about the very topic on which they’re experts!

Dear LilyM,

Cordial greetings and thankyou most kindly for your response to my post.

On the surface, at least, the parallel that you draw between Polyphonic music and rock does appear credible and even irrefutable. However, upon closer inspection it is found to be wanting and only *superficially *plausible.

The issue of rock music is not merely a matter of merging some secular with the sacred, but concerns the sinister elements of an entire genre of music that is permeated with strong sexual connotations and widespread drug abuse and has close links with the occultic subculture. This is to say nothing of the revolutionary nature of rock music which by its very beat and sound has always implicitly repudiated restraints and applauded irresponsibility and debauched living. Rock music will always be a powerful communicator of damaging philosophies and a hedonistic lifestyle. As such it will always be beyond artistic redemption, unlike some of the Polyphonic music which you reference, which although “lascivious and impure” by the standards of those times, is in an entirely different league altogether from contemporary rock and was deemed to have, at least, some redeemable merit. Rock music by its very nature excites and stirs up those “elemental passions” (the words used by cardinal Ratzinger, now our Holy Father, when talking about rock music); rather than ennobling a man it tends to debase and pollute his mind and thus is the very antithesis of all that is pure, lovely and virtuous (cf. Phillip. 4: 8). Would any Christian who is earnestly pursuing holiness want to inflict this debased sensory material upon himself? Surely not. Thankfully, I think we can rest assured that as long as a man of the spiritual stature of Pope Benedict is at the helm, then rock music will not be encouraged as permissible listening material or used in the Mass.

Those “handful of quotes” are fairly represenative and I have not found, at least thus far, anyone in the rock industry (performers, managers etc) who either challenge or who seek to correct any supposed misunderstanding with respect to the filth connection and dismiss it all as alarmist anti-rock propaganda put about by some ultra-conservatives.

Lily, as regards your point about Mr. Gates and his erroneous prediction about computer memory, you must remember that computer technology moves at almost break-neck pace and it is very precarious to try to predict the future. Of course we know in hindsight that Mr. Gates was unwise to make such a statement, but let us not to be too hard on the chap. Be that as it may, I fail to see how his foolish forecast about computer memory, has any bearing on what rock musicians are saying with regards to their craft, for they are hardly perdicting the future. Therefore when Chris Stein (lead guitarist with Blondie) says, “Everybody takes it for granted that rock ‘n’ roll is synonymous with sex”, he is making a statement about a genre of music with which he is very well aqainted in his own actual experience in the here and now. He is not talking about the unknown future. Moreover, Mr. Gates is one man whereas numerous rock musicians speak with one accord when it comes to this filth connection between rock music and sex. Can they all be wrong?

Apologies for my delay in responding Lily.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[NewsTheMan]

Those “handful of quotes” are fairly represenative and I have not found, at least thus far, anyone in the rock industry (performers, managers etc) who either challenge or who seek to correct any supposed misunderstanding with respect to the filth connection and dismiss it all as alarmist anti-rock propaganda put about by some ultra-conservatives.

Fairly representative? You mean a handful of quotes speak for 10000’s of bands? Wow!

However, your response is again pretty weak. It isn’t the job of rock musicians to start saying “Hey we aren’t about this or that” otherwise they would be spending all their time defending themselves! They do what they do. And in any case we all see through these things (whether from rock musicians or from cooking show chefs) so it’s kind of expected and thus why would they need to go and speak out against it?

Lucky for me music is subjective. If Jimmy Page himself told me rock was about sex and drugs and filth and worshipping Satan I would say “Thanks for that” and carry on listening to my music.

 

[Portrait]

Dude, Led Zeppelin is perhaps the greatest rock band of all time. Love 'em!! Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, what’s not to love!! Hall and Oates, gotta love those guys. As for Debbie Harry and Mick Jagger, pass. LOL…Not a big Zappa fan either.

Dear gurneyhalleck,

Cordial greetings.

Were you aware that the band Led Zeppelin show at least an occultic influence?

On the inside cover of their album ‘House of the Holy’ is a picture of a naked man holding up a child in sacrifice to a mysterious light on the top of a ruined building. The cover of ‘Presence’ shows a strange object which guitarist Jimmy Page says symbolizes the force that enables the band to have such power over audiences, a power known only as a ‘presence’.

Moreover, Mr. Page once bought a house that had belonged to the infamous British spiritualist, murderer and sexual deviant Aleister Crowley (who renamed himself ‘The Beast 666’).

How can any Christian worth their salt degrade and befoul themselves by listening to and supporting bands whose belief systems they would, or should, find revolting and deeply disturbing? To do so is not merely a truce with the world but with the underworld as well.

“What partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6: 14).

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait

 

[MichaelR]

Musicians don’t always believe in, or live as, their on stage or album persona demonstrates.

It is as an actor on stage, they take on a persona that sings and performs in a certain way, it doesn’t mean that they live it, and, essentially, are it.

If an actor plays a gay character, it doesn’t make him gay. It makes him a straight man performing a role of a gay made up character for the sake of telling a story or producing art.

 

[Portrait]

Fairly representative? You mean a handful of quotes speak for 10000’s of bands? Wow!

However, your response is again pretty weak. It isn’t the job of rock musicians to start saying “Hey we aren’t about this or that” otherwise they would be spending all their time defending themselves! They do what they do. And in any case we all see through these things (whether from rock musicians or from cooking show chefs) so it’s kind of expected and thus why would they need to go and speak out against it?

Lucky for me music is subjective. If Jimmy Page himself told me rock was about sex and drugs and filth and worshipping Satan I would say “Thanks for that” and carry on listening to my music.

My dear friend,

Cordial greetings.

The fact of the matter is that since its inception mainstream rock music has come to epitomize open rebellion, uncouth and coarse behaviour, as well as advocating sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, drug abuse, and having connections with occultic influences. Unfortunately people have become desensitized over the years and are now now longer shocked by any of this immorality.

It would have surely been in the interests of those in the rock media to disabuse the public of any erroneous misconceptions about their music genre, if only to avoid adverse publicity and needless censure. Moreover, they also have a moral obligation to put parent’s minds at rest regarding any unwholesome influence that their music, lyrics or comments are perceived to have upon the young and impressionable. That they have done neither evinces most clearly that they firmly believe that their is a filth connection between rock and debased sexuality. They know fully well that rock music serves to celebrate the most crude forms of lust and casual and promiscous sex. Indeed they take a perverse delight in cultivating an atmosphere of unbridled lust and irresponsible hedonism because they are aware that this will resonate with their young listeners.

Your last remark is most disturbing and I am tempted to ask is that just you talking “with your tongue firmly ensconced in your cheek”?. Sorry, but I am absolutely astounded that you would, as a Catholic, wish to continue listening to music that may have been inspired by sexual promiscuity, drugs or the occult and are seemingly indifferent to the impact upon your morals.

Please desist from trying to whitewash dissolute rock performers and clear them of any negative imputations. These godless men need to exposed for what they are - peddlers of immorality and corrupters of our youth.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[Portrait]

Musicians don’t always believe in, or live as, their on stage or album persona demonstrates.

It is as an actor on stage, they take on a persona that sings and performs in a certain way, it doesn’t mean that they live it, and, essentially, are it.

If an actor plays a gay character, it doesn’t make him gay. It makes him a straight man performing a role of a gay made up character for the sake of telling a story or producing art.

Dear Micheal,

Cordial greetings and very nice to hear from a fellow UK resident.

Even if what you said about the performers was correct, and that has yet to be proved, it would still not make their objectionable lyrics, obscene gestures, deviant sexual claims, drug inspired compositions and occultic connections any more acceptable or sanitize their music and nulify its impact on the morals of its devotees.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[MichaelR]

Moreover, they also have a moral obligation to put parent’s minds at rest regarding any unwholesome influence that their music, lyrics or comments are perceived to have upon the young and impressionable.

Why? This is what the ‘Parental Advisory’ label is for. If parents then let their children buy and listen to an album with the Parental Advisory on, that’s their choice and so their responsibility.

Sorry, but I am absolutely astounded that you would, as a Catholic, wish to continue listening to music that may have been inspired by sexual promiscuity, drugs or the occult and are seemingly indifferent to the impact upon your morals.

Perhaps he feels strong enough in his own faith and his own moral substance to be able to listen to something and appreciate it in its artistic manner without having to go out and live it himself. Most of us are more intelligent than ‘monkey see, monkey do’. To suggest otherwise actually seems a little patronising.

Please desist from trying to whitewash dissolute rock performers and clear them of any negative imputations. These godless men need to exposed for what they are - peddlers of immorality and corrupters of our youth.

Please desist from trying to judge a huge group of people and a huge genre of music, with it’s varying subgenres, on the actions of a few. I wouldn’t do it with English people, or American, or doctors, or any other group of people…to do it to rock musicians seems just as unfair.

 

[Portrait]

Dear Michael,

Cordial greetings and very nice to hear from a fellow UK resident.

Even if what you said about the performers was correct, and that has yet to be proved, it would still not make their objectionable lyrics, obscene gestures, deviant sexual claims, drug inspired compositions and occultic connections any more acceptable or sanitize their music and nulify its impact on the morals of its devotees.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

 

[NewsTheMan]

My dear friend,
Please desist from trying to whitewash dissolute rock performers and clear them of any negative imputations. These godless men need to exposed for what they are - peddlers of immorality and corrupters of our youth.

Aaaand this is where I know you are actually just joking.

So every rock musician is a godless peddlar of immorality. Do you actually understand how insane that sounds? I’ve been in bands… am I a godless peddlar of immorality? Are Christian Rock Bands Godless? Is that soft-rock tune on Catholic Answers Live (love is paaatient love is kiiiind) made by some Godless Peddlars of Immorality?

I am sorry you feel that way. You are missing out on some amazing music. I am sorry that you don’t have a discerning ear. I am sorry you think that even IF lyrics were all about sex drugs satan and the like (which they aren’t) that somehow this would turn me into a bad Catholic. I am sorry (deeply sorry) that you think a genre of music can be evil because of its beat and melody.

Reminds me of the time when the Augmented 4th or Diminished 4th or some interval (read about it years ago) was banned and considered evil because it would conjure up Satan.

 

[Portrait]

Why? This is what the ‘Parental Advisory’ label is for. If parents then let their children buy and listen to an album with the Parental Advisory on, that’s their choice and so their responsibility.

Perhaps he feels strong enough in his own faith and his own moral substance to be able to listen to something and appreciate it in its artistic manner without having to go out and live it himself. Most of us are more intelligent than ‘monkey see, monkey do’. To suggest otherwise actually seems a little patronising.

Please desist from trying to judge a huge group of people and a huge genre of music, with it’s varying subgenres, on the actions of a few. I wouldn’t do it with English people, or American, or doctors, or any other group of people…to do it to rock musicians seems just as unfair.

Dear Michael,

Cordial greetings and my final post this side of the weekend.

This ‘Parental Advisory’ warning is all well and good but of what use is it if young people access these albums with unsavoury content from say friends whose parents are not so vigilant in protecting their children from harmful sensory material? Michael do you know if the albums of such groups as Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, Blondie, Mothers of Invention, Meat Loaf, Iron Maiden, for example, actually carry the ‘Parental Advisory’ stamp? If they do then that would rather prove my argument that these bands plainly do peddle morally repugnant, and possibly blasphemous material, unsuitable for tender Christian consciences of all ages.

It is not so much an issue as to whether NewsTheMan has a robust enough faith that is impervious to this lyrical pornograohy and mind polluting bilge that is rock music, more a question of whether it is appropriate for a Christian to listen to such unbridled filth and depravity and support these morally offensive bands by purchasing their CD’s or attending their live performances. St. Paul enjoins us to “cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God” (2 Cor. 7: 1). Now every one who names the name of Christ has a searching responsibility to apply these principles to *every *sphere of their lives, including their musical tastes.

It does not really need me to discredit the rock music genre since it has done a pretty exceptional job of that already itself - the rock performers have brought forth out of their “evil treasure” (S. Matt. 12: 35) that which is incontrovertibly evil and morally corrupt and the vast majority of people, even myriads of non-Christians, acknowledge this to be so.

Goodbye for now and a warm welcome to CAF.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

 

[EphelDuath]

What is wrong with Iron Maiden?

 

[Julianna]

Dear gurneyhalleck,

Cordial greetings.

Were you aware that the band Led Zeppelin show at least an occultic influence?

On the inside cover of their album ‘House of the Holy’ is a picture of a naked man holding up a child in sacrifice to a mysterious light on the top of a ruined building. The cover of ‘Presence’ shows a strange object which guitarist Jimmy Page says symbolizes the force that enables the band to have such power over audiences, a power known only as a ‘presence’.

Moreover, Mr. Page once bought a house that had belonged to the infamous British spiritualist, murderer and sexual deviant Aleister Crowley (who renamed himself ‘The Beast 666’).

How can any Christian worth their salt degrade and befoul themselves by listening to and supporting bands whose belief systems they would, or should, find revolting and deeply disturbing? To do so is not merely a truce with the world but with the underworld as well.

“What partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6: 14).

Warmest good wishes and prayers,

Portrait

Led Zeppelin is my all time favorite. I have almost all the original albums except Presence. Physical Graffitti is my favorite. Stairway to Heaven is my favorite song, always will be. My husband has all the Door’s albums, CCR, the Who. The best music was between the years 1968-1974…then it went downhill.

I respect that you don’t like it, but don’t tell people they are going to hell in a handbasket if they listen to it.

 

[Julianna]

I’m supposed to stay home?

Sure, just as soon as YOU start paying my bills…

Miz

hey miserys fence, you missed a spot while you were cleaning your white westinghouse fridge. Also, what is a good recipe for pot roast? Politics…sorry, I don’t know anything about it. Let me tell you about my labor pains…

valium,…valium…where did I put my valium (mother’s little helper you know)