Dont understand atheists

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I find that explanation a bit simple.

I’m not an atheist but there are certain events in the Bible that I just don’t believe as facts, like Noah’s arc. I just can’t believe this story because it doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s not that believing this story doesn’t suit me, I just can’t force myself to believe it. I think it’s the same with many atheists. The reason they don’t believe is not arrogance, ignorance or convenience. It’s just that they can’t believe.

Well, I did state that it is a simplification of the stance.

Nobody is saying that the Noah’s arc story is historically true, in the sense that the story provides historical facta of an event. That is what fundamentalists believe and how they understand the Bible. But I believe that these stories, although not historical or scientific facts, are nevertheless true on a different level. If an atheist is using these Bible stories as an excuse then they should be educated and learn how to read the Bible.

 

[Bluegoat]

Ironically science itself proved that universe is not eternal but God by definition is.

God bless :byzsoc:

David

Science never prooves anything.

But as far as it goes, I wouldn’t assert that the most popular current ideas about the universe say it has a beginning in time, depending on precisely what one means by “universe”.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Lui,

Your comment about the Ark was: “I just can’t believe this story because it doesn’t make any sense to me”.​

What part dosen’t make sense?

 

[Lui]

Well, I did state that it is a simplification of the stance.

Nobody is saying that the Noah’s arc story is historically true, in the sense that the story provides historical facta of an event. That is what fundamentalists believe and how they understand the Bible. But I believe that these stories, although not historical or scientific facts, are nevertheless true on a different level. If an atheist is using these Bible stories as an excuse then they should be educated and learn how to read the Bible.

Sorry, if we misunderstood each other. I just used the story of Noah’s arc as an example to illustrate how I don’t believe certain things in the Bible as a literal story what many fundamentalists see as pure fact because they just seem to absurd to me. I just believe that many atheists consider all religious beliefs in the way I see the **factual **story of Noah’s arc(not the teaching). I just wanted to point out that I don’t think they are atheists out of convenience but rather that they just can’t believe in any of it for various reasons.

Btw, I also view the arc story the way you do but I don’t think atheists are atheists because they don’t believe the stories of the Bible but rather that the Bible isn’t even an issue(nor are any other religious teachings) for them just like the teachings of Hinduism isn’t an issue for us.

Hi Lui,

Your comment about the Ark was: “I just can’t believe this story because it doesn’t make any sense to me”.​

What part dosen’t make sense?

The story as a teaching makes sense to me but I don’t believe that the ark actually is historical fact or that the ark actually existed.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Lui,

sorry, I also misunderstood your comment. I guess we don’t dissagree.

However, I still think that convenience plays a role in disbelief, although they might not be aware of it. For example, I’ve had a discussion about the Noah’s arc and Adam and Eve with my brother, who is an agnostic. I explained how we understand these stories and he just wouldn’t accept my explanation and claimed that I was not following the church teaching. I assured him that I was indeed following the church understanding of this and that perhaps he was not open minded enough. Still, he insisted I was wrong and that the Noah’s arc is taught to be taken literally.

I’ve had the same experience with several other atheists where they refused to accept my explanation and insisted that their understanding of the Bible was correct. In other words, it is impossible to have a discussion when people are not willing to listen and be open to changing their opinion. In my brother’s case I know for a fact that he needs to disagree with the church because agreeing with even one thing would mean that there is reason for him to explore other aspects of our faith and maybe find more things he agrees with. And that is of course a dangerous thing.

That attitude of persisting in disbelief I call convenience. I’m sure it differs from person to person but i believe that the principle is present.

 

[followingtheway]

Science never prooves anything.

But as far as it goes, I wouldn’t assert that the most popular current ideas about the universe say it has a beginning in time, depending on precisely what one means by “universe”.

Okay, hold on. Why are you arguing for Atheism, if you’re Anglican?

 

[Lui]

However, I still think that convenience plays a role in disbelief, although they might not be aware of it. For example, I’ve had a discussion about the Noah’s arc and Adam and Eve with my brother, who is an agnostic. I explained how we understand these stories and he just wouldn’t accept my explanation and claimed that I was not following the church teaching.

Hehe…I love people who don’t believe in Catholic teachings but know better what they are. I have an atheist friend like that who always tells me that Catholics believe the world is 6000 years old and don’t believe in evolution. He was surprised when I told him that fundamentalists believe this but it is not a Catholic teaching. I don’t think that the false beliefs of what faith is about is why he is an atheist. I just thinks he believes that you die and that’s it. He actually had two heart attacks but still stays an atheist. Often if people survive dramatic things, they discover faith but he didn’t.
But I’m sure that convenience plays a part as you mentioned with many atheists but also that in the modern world materialism is a much stronger belief. Most people are just fixated on materialist values and just ignore what happens after death(actually in a way it is convenience). Society kind of excludes death. Most people think it is something that happens to others but not to them. Maybe it’s because in the old days it was normal that people had about 6-7(or more) kids and half of them died early and people died much younger from diseases that have been defeated, like Tuberculosis, and also there used to be a lot of wars. Also people used to die at home. Nowadays they die tucked away in some hospital so death and anything that has to do with it, is best ignored and it is better to concentrate on what to buy next, how to make more money or be successful. People try to achieve more success, money and fame and wonder why they never are satisfied and can’t seem to fill a hole in their life.

 

[babylonsfalling]

After reading into atheism and christianity alot over the last few weeks, I dont understand how atheists believe what they believe.

OK, first of all nothing existed, nothing. Then out of nothing this beautiful vast universe, with huge planets, stars and galaxies was created.

Then again out of nothing sprang this unique planet called earth and once again out of nothing, life mystically evolved.

Out of nothing somehow became 2 self replicating molecules which somehow grew eyes, hearts, veins, skin and senses… LOL

I look at the human body and how complex it is(not to mention all of the birds, fish, reptiles etc). Even something as simple as a lymph node or a gland is complex, we get a cold or illness, the node swells up, traps the illness then destroys it, keeping us alive and healthy. Then we have consciousness, eyes, lungs and thoughts and feelings that somehow grew out of nothing.

We then move out of science onto religion. Look at all the stuff that has happened, the great story of Jesus, The Bible… OK you can deny that but it is then followed up by modern miracles and the great saints.

Really there has been too much amazing stuff that has happened for their to be no God surely? The existence of life is the greatest miracle of them all in my opinion! But then for Christianity to grow rapidly, saints to be produced and many miracles to happen…

surely its the atheists who are delusional, and not us believers as Dawkins would say.

Atheists are a VERY conflicted bunch, trying very hard to not believe in God for some weird reason but never quite achieving that goal, insisting that they believe God isn’t there but never actually behaving as if God is a non existent. Their walk never matches their talk.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Society kind of excludes death. Most people think it is something that happens to others but not to them. Nowadays they die tucked away in some hospital so death and anything that has to do with it, is best ignored and it is better to concentrate on what to buy next, how to make more money or be successful. People try to achieve more success, money and fame and wonder why they never are satisfied and can’t seem to fill a hole in their life.

So true. I’ve been told by a few friends that I was weird and macabre when I mentioned death in a conversation. It is just not socially acceptable. I always respond that is the only certainty we have in life. People just can’t deal with it and pretend it doesn’t exist. And this illusion drives a lot of crazy behaviour that you describe. I think much of it is desperation and desire to have some control over life. I see it a lot in my family.

 

[mathematoons]

Atheists I know and have discussed things with don’t believe in God because it doesn’t suit them. This is a simplification of that belief system of course, but something that is always present in their reasoning to some degree. People latcth on to trendy scientific theories and refuse to admit they are theories, and consider them fact. Or look for reasons why there can’t be a God because the world is a messed up place. That kind of thing. In my experience, it tends to be pseudo science or some emotional issue. Their worldview is then built upon that.

You’re right. That describes exactly how I thought when I was an atheist.

The concept of a God who intervened in the world seemed illogical to me. I thought if the universe was created, then any creator would be too big to care about humans, which would neatly explain the problem of suffering–and it was the problem of suffering, more than anything, that kept me away. Anytime anyone talked about God, I’d say, “I can’t believe in a God who would allow the Holocaust.”

Hope that helps!

 

[samiam1611]

whew! So glad some people responded to straighten out the misconceptions the OP seems to have.

I will add some of my own thoughts.
I don’t know where this something out of nothing idea came from. That is not something I believe. I have no idea how the universe came to be. I think it is unknowable, and I think that thinking God created it is a classic God of the gaps example. Science doesn’t have the answer. You want an answer. Someone told you an answer. You believed it. Why you believed it is something I have not figured out. It’s easy I guess. Is that why?
I would rather say I don’t know than be wrong.

Originally posted by Contra Mundum
People latcth on to trendy scientific theories and refuse to admit they are theories, and consider them fact.

Goodness no. Wikipedia states it so well, I simply cannot word it better myself:
“A scientific theory is empirical, and is always open to falsification if new evidence is presented. That is, no theory is ever considered strictly certain as science accepts the concept of fallibilism.”
I mean sure, some things are known beyond a reasonable doubt and are regarded as fact like germ “theory”: microorganisms can cause disease. You don’t doubt that do you? So why do you doubt other scientific explanations? (If that is what you are saying. You didn’t quite say that, I am just kind of inferring.)

As for evolution, well, it certainly is an amazing thing. I can understand why you feel nature is so marvelous that it had to have been guided by a higher power. I simply accept that evolution and nature are quite amazing and it is hard to fathom how it all developed this way. But then again, it’s not that hard. I mean it took an awfully long time for these things to come about.
Think of dogs: they are kind of an example of evolution, don’t you think? Except instead of natural selection, it is human selection. Did you know that you can domesticate wolves - essentially, turn them into dogs, in just a few human generations? Well if we can create something so different in just a few years, imagine what nature can do by itself in millions of years! I wonder how long it took to get pugs haha probably a lot more than a few generations.

I really like nature and am in awe of it, and let me tell you something: while I truly am an atheist, there is a touch of angnosticism in me. This agnosticism has led me to neo-pagan religions. Nature worship…Mother Nature…I like that kind of thing. I don’t actually believe that there is any sort nature spirit or anything like that, but I just think that if there is a higher power out there, it is just a general force, or presence, not a super-powerful person or persons.

To sum up my beliefs though, I will just say this: I do not believe in the supernatural. I’m sure you all reject some supernatural claims. Well I just reject all of them. To reject all of them requires probably requires one to say about some things. Does that help you understand atheists a little better? I know I rambled a lot…and I could ramble a lot more too! That’s enough for now though.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

-and it was the problem of suffering, more than anything, that kept me away. Anytime anyone talked about God, I’d say, “I can’t believe in a God who would allow the Holocaust.”

I think this is a very common reason beyond atheism. I’ve had a few people tell me the same thing. I tried to explain what we believe about suffering but they rejected it. Nobody wants pain, even when it sounds noble. It is a difficult teaching to accept.

 

[Lui]

Anytime anyone talked about God, I’d say, “I can’t believe in a God who would allow the Holocaust.”

Oddly the Holocaust is a typical example that is used as if it was the exceptionally most brutal thing in human history but it was mainly because Hitler used middle age methods in the 20th Century but humans have been brutal all through human history. When you think of the way people were put into dungeons in the middle ages and tortured with the worst torture machines you can imagine. So-called witches were burned alive. Until the 19th Century people were used and mistreated as slaves. During the times of Jesus people were thrown into arenas with lions to be eaten alive. I can imagine that torture, murder and suffering in the times of Jesus must have been as bad as it gets. I bet the life as a slave BEFORE Jesus in Ancient Rome or Egypt wasn’t a piece of cake either.

In a way you can say this all happens when people turn their back on God and don’t listen to the inner conscious which comes from God.

 

[samiam1611]

Atheists are a VERY conflicted bunch, trying very hard to not believe in God for some weird reason but never quite achieving that goal, insisting that they believe God isn’t there but never actually behaving as if God is a non existent. Their walk never matches their talk.

no no no. :nope:Why do you expect atheists to act differently if they truly believe there is no God? I am not conflicted AT ALL. (I do admit I could be wrong however - I want scientific proof, and I don’t have any. So I am technically an agnostic atheist.)

I cannot stress to you enough how non-conflicted I am. Perhaps there are people who are conflicted but that is not me, nor anyone I know! (And I know plenty of atheists or nontheists.)

I don’t** try ** to not believe. My behavior is what it is! It has nothing to do with me being concerned that there is a chance that God is going to judge me when I die or whatever other reason you have for thinking that atheists must be conflicted since they don’t act like…what exactly do you think we would act like if our walk matched our talk? If I was a thief or a murderer, then would you believe me when I say I am not conflicted?

I mean sure I have different morals than you probably (pro-choice and that sort of thing) but basically I am just your average person who happens to lack belief in anything supernatural.

 

[Bluegoat]

Okay, hold on. Why are you arguing for Atheism, if you’re Anglican?

How am I arguing for atheism?

 

[followingtheway]

How am I arguing for atheism?

Well =/…

Science never prooves anything.

But as far as it goes, I wouldn’t assert that the most popular current ideas about the universe say it has a beginning in time, depending on precisely what one means by “universe”.

Atheists do not really believe that there was nothing and something suddenly appeared.

There are lots of other philosophical or theological ideas about the underlying nature of being, including the being of the universe. Some of them are quite sophisticated.

Many atheists, like the ancients, don’t think that there was ever a time that there was “nothing”. They would say that there was probably always some kind of material extension obeying some kind of laws, and that these things are simply self-existent in some sense and have always been.

There are challenges with that view, but it isn’t as stupid as the OP has implied.

Also remember that what is commonly called atheism might include ideas that properly speaking might including a belief in an underlying non-physical, or partially non-physical reality. For example, a person who believed something similar to what Spinoza or even Aristotle did might consider himself an atheist.

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Yeah that. :sad_yes: You’re kinda defending them

 

[samiam1611]

Well =/…

Yeah that. :sad_yes: You’re kinda defending them

Well the OP said he doesn’t understand atheists, so if (since) Bluegoat does, then good for him for speaking up! This isn’t an attack/defend thread, well I hope not anyway. If y’all are truly interested in learning what atheists think, that is great. If you are just here to make fun of how delusional :whacky: we are, that is not very nice of you.

Thanks Bluegoat!

 

[lao_tzu]

You’re kinda defending them

A failure to misrepresent falls well short of a defense.

 

[followingtheway]

Well the OP said he doesn’t understand atheists, so if (since) Bluegoat does, then good for him for speaking up! This isn’t an attack/defend thread, well I hope not anyway. If y’all are truly interested in learning what atheists think, that is great. If you are just here to make fun of how delusional :whacky: we are, that is not very nice of you.

Thanks Bluegoat!

Sorry Bluegoat. And I’m sorry Atheists I mean I have a few friends who are Atheists, don’t get me wrong. But they know little about Atheistic ideals. In fact, the majority of ones that are very into Religion in my school are either Non-Denominational and Pentecostals. Most of my Catholic friends are moderately religious I’m afraid.

 

[Arkadin]

whew! So glad some people responded to straighten out the misconceptions the OP seems to have.

I will add some of my own thoughts.
I don’t know where this something out of nothing idea came from. That is not something I believe. I have no idea how the universe came to be. I think it is unknowable, and I think that thinking God created it is a classic God of the gaps example. Science doesn’t have the answer. You want an answer. Someone told you an answer. You believed it. Why you believed it is something I have not figured out. It’s easy I guess. Is that why?
I would rather say I don’t know than be wrong.

Goodness no. Wikipedia states it so well, I simply cannot word it better myself:
“A scientific theory is empirical, and is always open to falsification if new evidence is presented. That is, no theory is ever considered strictly certain as science accepts the concept of fallibilism.”
I mean sure, some things are known beyond a reasonable doubt and are regarded as fact like germ “theory”: microorganisms can cause disease. You don’t doubt that do you? So why do you doubt other scientific explanations? (If that is what you are saying. You didn’t quite say that, I am just kind of inferring.)

As for evolution, well, it certainly is an amazing thing. I can understand why you feel nature is so marvelous that it had to have been guided by a higher power. I simply accept that evolution and nature are quite amazing and it is hard to fathom how it all developed this way. But then again, it’s not that hard. I mean it took an awfully long time for these things to come about.
Think of dogs: they are kind of an example of evolution, don’t you think? Except instead of natural selection, it is human selection. Did you know that you can domesticate wolves - essentially, turn them into dogs, in just a few human generations? Well if we can create something so different in just a few years, imagine what nature can do by itself in millions of years! I wonder how long it took to get pugs haha probably a lot more than a few generations.

I really like nature and am in awe of it, and let me tell you something: while I truly am an atheist, there is a touch of agnosticism in me. This agnosticism has led me to neo-pagan religions. Nature worship…Mother Nature…I like that kind of thing. I don’t actually believe that there is any sort nature spirit or anything like that, but I just think that if there is a higher power out there, it is just a general force, or presence, not a super-powerful person or persons.

To sum up my beliefs though, I will just say this: I do not believe in the supernatural. I’m sure you all reject some supernatural claims. Well I just reject all of them. To reject all of them requires probably requires one to say about some things. Does that help you understand atheists a little better? I know I rambled a lot…and I could ramble a lot more too! That’s enough for now though.