Don't you think protestants are following Jesus Christ?

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Contarini said:
I would not argue with that. But then, I’m a liberal heretic by the standards of these forums.
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Really? I’ve never gotten that impression from you. Rather, you’ve been on a long, hard journey (went through that too, so I can sympathize). You’re okay, brother. 🙂
My wife believes that God has called her to be an Episcopal priest. I don’t think it’s my business to sort out whether and how that conviction and my conviction that I ought to be in full communion with Rome can both be true.
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Edwin
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Even though she is your wife, she’s still her own person on her own journey. Each of us is no matter our relationships with others–family, friends, etc. Of course, as a Catholic I believe the best for her is full communion with the CC. She doesn’t see that that is for her. Maybe one day she will, but that’s not for anyone else to decide but her. You must follow Christ no matter what anyone else decides to do. That can be very hard, as Our Lord told us it could be. But, it will be for the best no matter how hard it may be in the short term. But, I’m sure you know all this, but I just wanted to encourage you in your journey. God knows what is best for each of us. I have to keep that firmly in mind whenever I’m in doubt. I hope it helps you, too. 🙂 You both have my prayers.
 
Wannano said:
Rc, that is a serious charge. I have had a priest answer that differently.
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If you heard a priest say that God does not want a certain person to be Catholic ever, then that priest was wrong. But my suspicion is that something got garbled in transmission.

Some people are given graces to almost immediately convert to Catholicism even from an extremely anti-Christian atheism. Others are given graces to go on a step-by-step journey which can take years and even decades to fully pan out. We shouldn’t discourage those on the journey, and neither should we subscribe to a universalism, wherein one’s religion doesn’t matter because God accepts anyone and everyone no matter what they do or believe or choose.
 
Wannano said:
Rc, that is a serious charge. I have had a priest answer that differently.
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Would you consider it a “serious charge” if a Protestant said “God does not lead Catholics to the conclusion the he has planted them where He wants them to be”? (And forgive me if I’m giving overly-predictable responses to your points. 😊)
 
LiamQ said:
If you heard a priest say that God does not want a certain person to be Catholic ever, then that priest was wrong. But my suspicion is that something got garbled in transmission.

Some people are given graces to almost immediately convert to Catholicism even from an extremely anti-Christian atheism. Others are given graces to go on a step-by-step journey which can take years and even decades to fully pan out. We shouldn’t discourage those on the journey, and **neither should we subscribe to a universalism, wherein one’s religion doesn’t matter **because God accepts anyone and everyone no matter what they do or believe or choose.
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Hi Liam

I’m curious as to whether you’d put Protestantism in the same bracket as non Christian religions when it comes to universalism?
 
Some do not so much follow, as simply believe. So far, so good - but It is a mindset, a thought process, since they have no liturgy and tend to confine Jesus to the past as a signed contract.

Such may hold to a carefully crafted, revisionist, man-made version of Christ as a Divine analyst and beer-drinking buddy.
 
LiamQ said:
If you heard a priest say that God does not want a certain person to be Catholic ever, then that priest was wrong. But my suspicion is that something got garbled in transmission.

Some people are given graces to almost immediately convert to Catholicism even from an extremely anti-Christian atheism. Others are given graces to go on a step-by-step journey which can take years and even decades to fully pan out. We shouldn’t discourage those on the journey, and neither should we subscribe to a universalism, wherein one’s religion doesn’t matter because God accepts anyone and everyone no matter what they do or believe or choose.
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Talk about garbling…your interpretation of what the priest said is the ultimate of garbling. Read it again:shrug:
 
Peter_J said:
Would you consider it a “serious charge” if a Protestant said “God does not lead Catholics to the conclusion the he has planted them where He wants them to be”? (And forgive me if I’m giving overly-predictable responses to your points. 😊)
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Yes.
 
po18guy said:
Some do not so much follow, as simply believe. So far, so good - but It is a mindset, a thought process, since they have no liturgy and tend to confine Jesus to the past as a signed contract.

Such may hold to a carefully crafted, revisionist, man-made version of Christ as a Divine analyst and beer-drinking buddy.
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Couldn’t a lot of this apply to some Catholics too, though? Those who simply believe but do little else about their faith, those who use the Mass and rituals in an almost talismanic way, those who have their own version of Christ who agrees with their own prejudices?
 
Wannano said:
Rc, that is a serious charge. I have had a priest answer that differently.
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Perhaps. It is. You asked… that’s my belief, otherwise I would not be Catholic. She is either correct, or she is not.

I will give this priest the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know how the conversation went. But according to what you imply, I believe he is wrong.

820*“Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.” Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: “That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, ... so that the world may know that you have sent me.” The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.

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Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity."315*"For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord."316*Indeed, "from the incarnate Word’s descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior’s promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her."317
 
rcwitness said:
Perhaps. It is. You asked… that’s my belief, otherwise I would not be Catholic. She is either correct, or she is not.

I will give this priest the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know how the conversation went. But according to what you imply, I believe he is wrong.

820*“Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.” Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: “That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, ... so that the world may know that you have sent me.” The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.

334
Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity."315*"For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord."316*Indeed, "from the incarnate Word’s descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior’s promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her."317
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In a loving and kind manner I am asking how you see yourself as a brother to all Christians.
 
Peter_J said:
Just checking. 🙂

Just be sure that you understand that he’s one person, not the whole church.
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So the whole Church would say God does not lead anyone to be on the Protestant side of the Great Commission?
 
Wannano said:
So the whole Church would say God does not lead anyone to be on the Protestant side of the Great Commission?
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Hold on a second. When I said that the RC priest you know is “one person, not the whole church”, that doesn’t imply that RCwitness is the whole church.

This is starting to remind me of one of those conversations where a Protestant says “Tim Staples said Blank” and I’m like “Okay. But why do you assume I know who you’re talking about?”
 
Wannano said:
So the whole Church would say God does not lead anyone to be on the Protestant side of the Great Commission?
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Maybe the unbaptized or non-Christians, as a step toward the True Faith. Sure.
 
Wannano said:
So the whole Church would say God does not lead anyone to be on the Protestant side of the Great Commission?
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Well, all who are baptized into the Catholic faith are considered Catholics no matter what other affiliations they may seek afterwards, so she isn’t going to say that Catholics can be led out of full communion with the Church for another ecclesial body, no. Why should she when she knows herself to be the fullest expression of the Christian faith?

The real question ought to be: does the Church condemn/disown/excommunicate those who leave her for another ecclesial body? She will say that they are always welcome home, and that she is sad they made that decision, but she doesn’t actively excommunicate people (which isn’t a judgment against anyone’s soul, btw).

Catholics can excommunicate themselves, to varying degrees. It is up to them and their confessor to sort out how culpable they were or if any sin was committed, etc. Usually, all it takes is confessing one’s sins to be back in full communion with the Church. Perhaps I’ve explained too much or not answered the question, but truly, the Church doesn’t view leaving her for another ecclesial body in the way many Protestants may think she does. I just want to make that clear. 🙂
 
Peter_J said:
Hold on a second. When I said that the RC priest you know is “one person, not the whole church”, that doesn’t imply that RCwitness is the whole church.
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While I agree that I should not be regarded as an authoritative mouthpiece of the whole Church, I did provide an appropriate section of the Catechism that supports the concept that Jesus does not lead us into a Christian Community that is not in full Communion with the Church (Bishop) of Rome. So I am not asserting anything of my own, just what I plainly see in the Catholic faith.

Do you see something different?

Btw, I am specifically NOT saying that Jesus does not gather people to Himself through these communities.
 
rcwitness said:
While I agree that I should not be regarded as an authoritative mouthpiece of the whole Church, I did provide an appropriate section of the Catechism that supports the concept that Jesus does not lead us into a Christian Community that is not in full Communion with the Church (Bishop) of Rome. So I am not asserting anything of my own, just what I plainly see in the Catholic faith.

Do you see something different?

Btw, I am specifically NOT saying that Jesus does not gather people to Himself through these communities.
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One last question before I go. Is the Nicene Creed actually meant to read…one holy, Roman Catholic Church in communion with Rome, apostolic…?
 
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