Dorothy Day - on the road to sainthood but also an anarchist

[Reep]

The Church does not condemn people for a lack of support for unjust governments, legitimately elected or not.

I don’t condemn them. I’d just like to persuade them that government is not necessarily their friend. I think Dorothy Day would agree, but cannot say much more until I have given the dear lady some more study. That said, anybody who favors less government aggression is a friend of mine.

 

[jwinch2]

I don’t condemn them. I’d just like to persuade them that government is not necessarily their friend. .

I think perhaps you missed the point of my post, probably due to a lack of clarity on my part.

My post was intended to state that those who do not view the form or role of government as just and therefore want that government to change are not necessarily wrong according to the Church. In short, a Catholic of good will and with a properly formed conscience can come to the conclusion that we have too much government involvement in our lives and that things would be better off if the state was to take a diminished role.

There have been a number of posts on this thread which seem to suggest the opposite through use of the Church’s statements on the legitimacy of government.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[iloveangels]

Well, by all means, share. . . . .

Do your homework.

 

[ringil]

Do your homework.

I guess I would ask what would be the basic thrust of the various sources.

Would they happen to have a strong political leaning?

added- after quite a bit of searching I discovered that the illustrious Glenn Beck has spoken negatively of Dorothy Day.

That’s got to be reliable right?

 

[iloveangels]

I guess I would ask what would be the basic thrust of the various sources.

Would they happen to have a strong political leaning?

added- after quite a bit of searching I discovered that the illustrious Glenn Beck has spoken negatively of Dorothy Day.

That’s got to be reliable right?

Would I send you out to look at Glen Beck? What do you take me for, a politically motivated dork? I’ve had enough politics to last me for the next 10 years.

Keep looking.

 

[247cath]

She was a self-proclaimed hippie. I am not even going to discuss the rest because it will make all those who defend her blow a gasket.

I pray that she won’t be canonized in our lifetime, maybe in another, but for the Church to canonize her now I feel would be making more of a political statement than anything else.

If a person was a hippie while in her late sixties and seventies, (she was born in 1897), then good for her. Because if she still had that kind of spirit after the work she did in the proceeding decades , that is just one more amazing thing to put in her resume.

As to sainthood for political reasons, it wouldn’t be the first time. But if the person qualifies aren’t they by definition a saint? Who cares about the chronological order anyway? Certainly not the candidates, they are all dead.

 

[fix]

You bring only a conclusion, but no argument. At least I gave an example. There are other Catholic libertarian societies that have existed, such as the Free State of Iceland that lasted 300 years and Ireland before the English conquest.

If you are claiming the only legitimate State on earth is Vatican City then the onus is on you. The Church does not state Her State is the only legitimate one.

 

[fix]

This thread is ABOUT Dorothy Day. Dorothy Day had a lot of interesting things about her, and one of them was her political views, but that’s not the only odd thing about her. At. All.

This is turning into a rabbit hole. My point, so far, has to been to agree with those that point out the Church does not claim that earthly authority is unjust or contrary to Church teaching. It is in fact the exact opposite.

Some here have seem to imply that Day held this view of government. I think defining such things helps clarify the issue.

 

[iloveangels]

If a person was a hippie while in her late sixties and seventies, (she was born in 1897), then good for her. Because if she still had that kind of spirit after the work she did in the proceeding decades , that is just one more amazing thing to put in her resume.

As to sainthood for political reasons, it wouldn’t be the first time. But if the person qualifies aren’t they by definition a saint? Who cares about the chronological order anyway? Certainly not the candidates, they are all dead.

Yes, this is some king of political thing. I can’t believe that they’re serious. At any rate, no matter what happens, that whole thing isn’t what it used to be and I don’t take the modern version of saint-making as seriously as I used to, either.

If Dorothy Day is canonized, it won’t upset me. I will just take it that much less seriously.

 

[ringil]

We aren’t all drawn to every saint. I know I have a few issues with some recent ones, say over the last 20 years but. . .

Still they are saints, and they are in heaven.

I think that Benedict is trying to slow down the saint making- at least a bit- following JPII.

I am just yearning for the day Father Augustine Tolton is canonized.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Do your homework.

I know quite a bit about Dorothy Day. But even so I have no idea what you mean by your mysterious At. All. Since that is your opinion and not obvious to the rest of us, why don’t you just say what you think?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

OK, so once we’ve all started homes for the homeless and soup kitchens and lived among the poor ourselves (sort of like several other Saints I can think of), then we can discuss if that is a life of heroic virtue or not.

We also all need to remember that the proclamation of Cannonization is infalliable. We may not have a devotion to that Saint, but we have to assent to the Church’s statement that the person is in heaven.

 

[ringil]

I know quite a bit about Dorothy Day. But even so I have no idea what you mean by your mysterious At. All. Since that is your opinion and not obvious to the rest of us, why don’t you just say what you think?

I really did look it up. I was looking for fringe traditionalist sites to show up but I didn’t even get that.

Like I said the main thing I got is that Glenn Beck has made some disparaging commentary related to his tirades about Social Justice.

But, as much as we (me) might like, everything isn’t on the internet so maybe these issues are like that.

I mean having a child out of wedlock and an abortion are pretty scandalous and the Bishop listed those outright.

I’m frankly at a

 

[Bill_7154]

Then you should repent of your errors and submit to the authentic Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

I think I know what 'repent my errors means (would need to check with an authority to be sure) but have no idea what 'submit to the authentic Magisterium of the Catholic Church means… so I guess I could use some clarification in laymen’s terms for assistance in understanding what you are proposing…and what the outcome would be if I did this compared to if I didn’t do this.

Thanks and God Bless,
Bill

 

[Reep]

I know quite a bit about Dorothy Day. But even so I have no idea what you mean by your mysterious At. All. Since that is your opinion and not obvious to the rest of us, why don’t you just say what you think?

Anyone recommend a good biography about Dorothy Day?

 

[OneDayASaint]

The problem with libertarianism is its denial of the common good. This is not the case with Day–indeed she’s considered too much of a socialist by many. . . .

But from what I understand she didn’t believe in using coercion to solve social problems (I admit that I don’t know anywhere near as much about her as I’d like).

Edwin

How is libertarianism denying the common good? I’m not trying to be snarky, here. I’ve just never looked at it that way. I’ve always felt that libertarianism was against using coercion to solve social problems like you said that Day was.

I almost bought a book on Day last week. Now I’m wishing I did! I will soon, however.

 

[Bill_7154]

How is libertarianism denying the common good? I’m not trying to be snarky, here. I’ve just never looked at it that way. I’ve always felt that libertarianism was against using coercion to solve social problems like you said that Day was.

I almost bought a book on Day last week. Now I’m wishing I did! I will soon, however.

It is NOT about denying or being against the common good. I am libertarian (to keep it simple) and am so because I am FOR the common good and believe that is the best way to get the most people the most good. And I’ve had dozens of debates about that, defending that, and am happy to have more…

Peace,
Bill

 

[OneDayASaint]

It is NOT about denying or being against the common good. I am libertarian (to keep it simple) and am so because I am FOR the common good and believe that is the best way to get the most people the most good. And I’ve had dozens of debates about that, defending that, and am happy to have more…

Peace,
Bill

I consider myself libertarian in some ways, conservative in others. Perhaps since I’m not a straight ticket I don’t know how a 100% libertarian might be against the common good. I’d be interested in hearing other people’s opinions on it, though. Thank you for your response.

 

[Bill_7154]

I consider myself libertarian in some ways, conservative in others. Perhaps since I’m not a straight ticket I don’t know how a 100% libertarian might be against the common good. I’d be interested in hearing other people’s opinions on it, though. Thank you for your response.

I think it’s a false perception (and in some cases deliberate deception to assert that because the person knows several lib’s who state they are for the common good yet the person continues to assert they are not…

Peace,
Bill

 

[Reep]

I think it’s a false perception (and in some cases deliberate deception to assert that because the person knows several lib’s who state they are for the common good yet the person continues to assert they are not…

As a Catholic libertarian I haven’t slightest problem with the Church’s definition of the common good as set forth in the Catechism:

“The common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defense.” CCC 1909.

The Catechism (at paragraph 1925) gives the three elements that define the common good:

1. Respect for and promotion of the fundamental rights of the person;
2. Prosperity, or the development of the spiritual and temporal goods of society;
3. The peace and security of the group and of its members.

I find nothing here in conflict with libertarianism, nor do I see anything in that to support the initiation of violence by government.