Dorothy Day

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Hey, can anyone give me a quick crash course on Dorothy Day, Peter Maurin, and Catholic Pacifism? I am struggling to reconcile pacifism with Just War Theory. I read an article on Dorothy Day calling her a devout Catholic and saying the US bishops used her writings to justify conscientious objection as a moral option, but how can blanket pacifism be acceptable in the face of grave evils, like Nazi Germany? The US had the ability to fight him, but did they have the obligation? Also, Ms. Day’s Socialist roots have raised all sorts of red flags with me. What up wit dat?:confused:
 
dafalax said:
Hey, can anyone give me a quick crash course on Dorothy Day, Peter Maurin, and Catholic Pacifism? I am struggling to reconcile pacifism with Just War Theory. I read an article on Dorothy Day calling her a devout Catholic and saying the US bishops used her writings to justify conscientious objection as a moral option, but how can blanket pacifism be acceptable in the face of grave evils, like Nazi Germany? The US had the ability to fight him, but did they have the obligation? Also, Ms. Day’s Socialist roots have raised all sorts of red flags with me. What up wit dat?:confused:
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You mean Dorothy Day, Servant of God? My favorite phrase of hers is: “Don’t call me a saint. I don’t want to be dismissed so easily.” Google her for more info.
 
dafalax said:
how can blanket pacifism be acceptable in the face of grave evils, like Nazi Germany? The US had the ability to fight him, but did they have the obligation?
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Yes, this is a part of her vision with which I also have difficulty. She was very strongly anti-war, believing that followers of Christ should not be killing their brothers and sisters.
Her position on absolute nonviolence and pacifism was grounded in her personal relationship with Jesus. “It is better to obey God than men,” Day asserted, quoting St. Peter (Acts 5:29). The origin and strength of Day’s deep conviction about nonviolence ultimately came from her spirituality—that is, from her own lived experience of Jesus Christ. As she often wrote, “We believe that Christ went beyond natural ethics and the Old Dispensation in this matter of force and war and taught nonviolence as a way of life.”
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americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1140

Saintly she is, but her example may best be followed by some individuals and not by nations. The lives of different saints stress different aspects of mankind’s relationship with God… there is something in the lives of the saints for everyone.
 
Dale_M said:
**Yes, this is a part of her vision with which I also have difficulty. **She was very strongly anti-war, believing that followers of Christ should not be killing their brothers and sisters.
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:eek: ???
 
:o

OMG, I just saw what I wrote. Thanks for quoting it back to me.

Hmmm… let me see if I can be a bit less clumsy.

Dorothy Day was very strongly anti-war, believing that followers of Christ should not be killing their brothers and sisters. This is the ideal, but we live in a fallen world where our brothers and sisters are sometimes violent towards us. Love and compassion should come first, but self-defense may sometimes be necessary. And this self-defense may require violence - for this reason I do not share Dorothy Day’s vision.
 
Pacifism can be a calling, but it is not a blanket moral obligation. Dorothy Day was called to pacifism, and I respect that calling.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
I’m not saying that war is good, but having read many issues of the Catholic Worker which emphasize primacy of conscience over papal authority and other questionable things, I’m wondering if the Catholic Worker hasn’t derailed. Thank you for the links. I guess I just don’t understand pacifism as a calling. It seems to negate the validity and goodness of defending the innocent in a war-type situation. Was it wrong to go to war over slavery? How can it be moral for the US to have entered WWII after the attack on Pearl Harbor if it is also moral to not enter war when you are attacked? The article I read seems to have a problem with the way wars are fought almost more than that they are fought. Also, if this needs to move to the philosophy thread, let me know.
 
dafalax said:
I guess I just don’t understand pacifism as a calling. It seems to negate the validity and goodness of defending the innocent in a war-type situation. Was it wrong to go to war over slavery? How can it be moral for the US to have entered WWII after the attack on Pearl Harbor if it is also moral to not enter war when you are attacked?.
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Mark’s description of pacifism as a calling is a good one. It’s basically what I was trying to say.

Yes, there are just wars, but even in them there is a great amount of hatred directed to the other side. Pacifism helps us to remember that the people on the other side are much like us, doing what they were brought up to believe was right. Wars are tragic, even when necessary, because many good people die killing one another. And, of course, many innocent civilians are killed as well. Pacifism is an important reminder of our common humanity.

I could not be a pacifist, but I do thank God for giving us pacifists.
 
dafalax said:
Hey, can anyone give me a quick crash course on Dorothy Day, Peter Maurin, and Catholic Pacifism? I am struggling to reconcile pacifism with Just War Theory. I read an article on Dorothy Day calling her a devout Catholic and saying the US bishops used her writings to justify conscientious objection as a moral option, but how can blanket pacifism be acceptable in the face of grave evils, like Nazi Germany? The US had the ability to fight him, but did they have the obligation? Also, Ms. Day’s Socialist roots have raised all sorts of red flags with me. What up wit dat?:confused:
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I would not call non-violent struggle the same as pacifism. It is just Dorthy and the rest of the Catholic Worker movement always seek out solutions without being violent.
 
Total pacifism is un-Catholic.

Remember the holy crusades. The Church declared a righteous war against the Islamist menace which was threatening to destroy Christendom.

In the face of such evil as communism, nazism, Islamism, etc., we are called to battle.
 
Isn’t it true that Catholic teachings have varied over time on this? Before the time of Constantine, it appears to have been the universal teaching of the Church that it was incompatible with being a Christian to be a soldier.

“Under no circumstances should a true Christian draw the sword.” – Tertullian, 155-230 A.D.
“You cannot demand military service of Christians any more than you can of priests. We do not go forth as soldiers.” Origen of Alexandria, 185-254 A.D.
"And so, in this commandment of God, no exception at all ought to be made to the rule that it is always wrong to kill a man, whom God has wished to be regarded as a sacrosanct creature…Thou shalt not kill… It is always unlawful to put a man to death.” - Lactantius of Bithynia, aprox 240-317 A.D.
“We who had been filled with mutual slaughter and every wickedness, have each one - all the world over - changed the instruments of war, the swords into ploughs and the spears into farming instruments, and we cultivate piety righteousness, love for men, faith and hope which is from the Father Himself through the Crucified One.” - Justin Martyr, 100 - 165 A.D.
“He who holds the sword must cast it away and that if one of the faithful becomes a soldier, he must be rejected by the Church, for he has scorned God.” - Clement of Alexandria, 217 A.D.
“For even if soldiers came to John and received advice on how to act, and even if a centurion became a believer, the Lord, in subsequently disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier” (Tertullian in Treatise on Idolatry 19; Ante-nicene Fathers 3:73).

Christians were martyred for this stand before and after Constantine. See Saints Maximilian and Martin of Tours for examples.

After Constantine, the Church developed the Just War theory. For a time, it even became warlike itself with the Crusades, which the Church has now apologized for.

There seems to have been a move back in the direction of the Early Church position. Pope Beneict took his name after a Pope famous for telling the leaders of all sides to stop WWI. He appointed a Secretary of State who used his first meeting with the diplomatic corps to praise conscientious objectors. The Pope hailed Christian nonviolence in his homily On the Revolution of Love this past March. Before becoming Pope, he mused that he did not think there could be a just war in our circumstances.
 
Bill_Samuel said:
Isn’t it true that Catholic teachings have varied over time on this? Before the time of Constantine, it appears to have been the universal teaching of the Church that it was incompatible with being a Christian to be a soldier.

“Under no circumstances should a true Christian draw the sword.” – Tertullian, 155-230 A.D.
“You cannot demand military service of Christians any more than you can of priests. We do not go forth as soldiers.” Origen of Alexandria, 185-254 A.D.
"And so, in this commandment of God, no exception at all ought to be made to the rule that it is always wrong to kill a man, whom God has wished to be regarded as a sacrosanct creature…Thou shalt not kill… It is always unlawful to put a man to death.” - Lactantius of Bithynia, aprox 240-317 A.D.
“We who had been filled with mutual slaughter and every wickedness, have each one - all the world over - changed the instruments of war, the swords into ploughs and the spears into farming instruments, and we cultivate piety righteousness, love for men, faith and hope which is from the Father Himself through the Crucified One.” - Justin Martyr, 100 - 165 A.D.
“He who holds the sword must cast it away and that if one of the faithful becomes a soldier, he must be rejected by the Church, for he has scorned God.” - Clement of Alexandria, 217 A.D.
“For even if soldiers came to John and received advice on how to act, and even if a centurion became a believer, the Lord, in subsequently disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier” (Tertullian in Treatise on Idolatry 19; Ante-nicene Fathers 3:73).

Christians were martyred for this stand before and after Constantine. See Saints Maximilian and Martin of Tours for examples.

After Constantine, the Church developed the Just War theory. For a time, it even became warlike itself with the Crusades, which the Church has now apologized for.

There seems to have been a move back in the direction of the Early Church position. Pope Beneict took his name after a Pope famous for telling the leaders of all sides to stop WWI. He appointed a Secretary of State who used his first meeting with the diplomatic corps to praise conscientious objectors. The Pope hailed Christian nonviolence in his homily On the Revolution of Love this past March. Before becoming Pope, he mused that he did not think there could be a just war in our circumstances.
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Matthew Chapter 8:
5
4 When he entered Capernaum, 5 a centurion approached him and appealed to him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, suffering dreadfully.” 7 He said to him, “I will come and cure him.” 8 The centurion said in reply, 6 “Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come here,’ and he comes; and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel 7 have I found such faith. 11 I say to you, 8 many will come from the east and the west, and will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the banquet in the kingdom of heaven, 12 but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.” 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “You may go; as you have believed, let it be done for you.” And at that very hour (his) servant was healed.
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As we see here in Matthew Chapter 8 in Jesus own example there is nothing inconsistant with being in military service and being a Christian.
 
Bill_Samuel said:
Isn’t it true that Catholic teachings have varied over time on this? Before the time of Constantine, it appears to have been the universal teaching of the Church that it was incompatible with being a Christian to be a soldier.
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as far as i know the church as an institution has never officially endorsed absolute pacifism, even though as you say many early christians shunned military service for the roman state. (they also refused to fully participate in roman citizenship by declining to worship roman deities, which is probably related.)

christian clergy also historically have been exempt from serving as soldiers out of respect for their priestly office but the laity was always expected to serve in defense of their state or locality as needed, not least when christianity became the official religion of the west.

the muddling of the clerical and lay positions on war and military service is a recent phenomenon, partly due to concerns about the inability of keeping civilian non-combatants safe from conflict in modern warfare.
 
The “muddling” was very early and due to the Church’s understanding of the gospel. Origen said, “You cannot demand military service of Christians any more than you can of priests." He was saying purely aside from anything due to respect of the office of priest, it was inconsistent with the gospel for any Christian to take up arms against anyone. If you read the early church fathers, you will find repeatedly this position.

Was the change after Constantine in the Church’s position a better understanding of the Gospel or an accommodation to political power? I think the latter. And now that the Vatican lacks much in the way of political power, it seems to be returning to the pre-Constantinian understanding of the Gospel.
 
One thing that always concerned me about Dorothy Day was that even after she became a Catholic, she still continued to identify herself as an anarchist and therefore never exercised her democracy to vote in any elections. americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1140 I don’t know if this would be a barrier to her canonization, as I’m not a theologian.

In contrast, it’s interesting to note that according to Fr. Corapi (and some other sources that I couldn’t find on the internet), the only times St. Padre Pio ever left his friary at San Giovanni Rotondo was to vote, as he believed it to be such an important privlidge.
 
spangler1982 said:
One thing that always concerned me about Dorothy Day was that even after she became a Catholic, she still continued to identify herself as an anarchist and therefore never exercised her democracy to vote in any elections. americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1140 I don’t know if this would be a barrier to her canonization, as I’m not a theologian.

In contrast, it’s interesting to note that according to Fr. Corapi (and some other sources that I couldn’t find on the internet), the only times St. Padre Pio ever left his friary at San Giovanni Rotondo was to vote, as he believed it to be such an important privlidge.
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Peace be with you!
If it is factually accurate thet Padre Pio never left the monastery except to vote, then it should be remembered that he is also said to have been seen “outside” S. Giovanni Rotondo via bilocation! People with a prophetic mission–Dorothy Day–often overstate their cause in order to make a point. The USA is in mired in a terrible situation for its adventure in Iraq sans causus belli. Christian homes and Muslim homes have been side by side there for centuries. ‘Who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.’ Early Christian monks abandoned the world of business and military service.
Aurelius
 
RomanCrusader said:
Total pacifism is un-Catholic.

Remember the holy crusades. The Church declared a righteous war against the Islamist menace which was threatening to destroy Christendom.

In the face of such evil as communism, nazism, Islamism, etc., we are called to battle.
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Wow.

I can’t believe what I just read.

I won’t comment…

For the love of…

Sigh.

Holy war? No such thing. Christianity knows no jihad in a corporal realm.
Turn the other cheek is catholic.
And, please, don’t quote Jesus turning tables in the temple - He didn’t hurt, let alone kill anyone.
A man, a very puny man and an infinitely lesser then The Lawgiver has no right to take a life. Circumstances may vary. Murder may not always be a mortal sin, but it still remains an objective evil.
And as such is a serious disorder.

I’m going to say again - turn the other cheek.

I think total pacifism is FULLY Christian.

The martyrs, who are the seed of the church certainly did NOT fight back to those who were massacring them by the hundreds.

I’m sorry, but the crusades have nothing to do with a just war. The intention may have been just - to protect the pilgrims, but it stops there.
Feudalism is the real deal behind it - the opportunity for getting new land and riches.

The behavior of the crusaders is… TOTALLY UNCHRISTIAN.

It just is.

I never cease to be amazed at blutters such as the crusades being holy.

War cannot be holy, for it is objectively evil.

Thou shall not murder.

To destroy Christendom?
Would you trust Christ saying that the gates of hell shall not prevail over the Church?

How, then, can something like that be suspected?

Sigh.

I just…

I’m sorry, but I’m left speachless when I read that someone says it’s OK to kill your islamistic brother, a creation of God.

“Well, God, I’m sorry, but I’m going to take matters into my own hand…”

That’s not the way it works.

Mt 21, 42
Mt 19, 18-20
Mt 7, 1
Mt 7, 12
Mt 5, 43-48
Mt 5, 10
Rom 12, 20-21

I’m not going to give more verses, for I fear I may have gone out of context with some of them, but the point remains.
And I don’t like shooting verses around, for any child can do that. It takes a lot more, however, to understand them.

So, please, don’t go to scripturecatholic.com or wherever to look for clues.

And yes, fully catholic.

And fully pacifist.
 
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