Douay-Rheims Bible

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That’s it – I’m purchasing a D-R Bible, which will be perhaps my 20th Bible.:eek: Bottom-line: I want a COUNTER-REFORMATION Bible. Fighting the Reformation was one of the most glorious spiritual wars ever fought, in the history of Western Man. Git’r done. :knight1:
I hope you enjoy the D-R. It is a glorious translation and it is a solid Bible to use in defending the Catholic faith with those that are KJV only
 
That’s it – I’m purchasing a D-R Bible, which will be perhaps my 20th Bible.:eek: Bottom-line: I want a COUNTER-REFORMATION Bible. Fighting the Reformation was one of the most glorious spiritual wars ever fought, in the history of Western Man. Git’r done. :knight1:
// 👍 👍
 
Manfred and Jehuty X,

These are good reasons to obtain and to read the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible. Fighting error is important. Reading a Bible version that is accurate is important to understanding the faith, which is grounded in the Holy Scriptures.

All of that and the Douay-Rheims is memorable and beautiful. I find that it is easier to memorise a version that is memorably worded; there is “cluthching power” for the mind’s retention in such words.

Also, a beautiful and devout Bible helps with one’s prayers. The D-R-C Version leads to meditation, wonder, and to prayer.

Jerry Parker
 
Manfred and Jehuty X,

These are good reasons to obtain and to read the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible. Fighting error is important. Reading a Bible version that is accurate is important to understanding the faith, which is grounded in the Holy Scriptures.

All of that and the Douay-Rheims is memorable and beautiful. I find that it is easier to memorise a version that is memorably worded; there is “cluthching power” for the mind’s retention in such words.

Also, a beautiful and devout Bible helps with one’s prayers. The D-R-C Version leads to meditation, wonder, and to prayer.

Jerry Parker
I second that. I use the Douay-Rheims to refute my Pentecostal, KJV-only Aunt and Uncle. My uncle is also a minister in the Pentecostal denomination and they can’t distinguish the difference between the two without looking at them and knowing that the Douay has 7 more books.
 
Tobinatorstark,

Good comment, too! However, those deutero-canonical writings are missing in your Pentecostal aunt’s and uncle’s A.V. (K.J.V.) Bible only because they purchased a copy of it without that Protestant version’s own “Apocrypha”. No Roman Catholic would allow publishers to maul and to abuse the Douay-Rheims Bible with such omissions!

Jerry Parker

Tobinatorstark wrote: I second that. I use the Douay-Rheims to refute my Pentecostal, KJV-only Aunt and Uncle. My uncle is also a minister in the Pentecostal denomination and they can’t distinguish the difference between the two without looking at them and knowing that the Douay has 7 more books.

+++++++

Jerry Parker had previously written: These are good reasons to obtain and to read the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible. Fighting error is important. Reading a Bible version that is accurate is important to understanding the faith, which is grounded in the Holy Scriptures.

All of that and the Douay-Rheims is memorable and beautiful. I find that it is easier to memorise a version that is memorably worded; there is “clutching power” for the mind’s retention in such words.

Also, a beautiful and devout Bible helps with one’s prayers. The Douay-Rheims-Challoner Version leads to meditation, wonder, and to prayer.

Jerry Parker
 
I second that. I use the Douay-Rheims to refute my Pentecostal, KJV-only Aunt and Uncle. My uncle is also a minister in the Pentecostal denomination and they can’t distinguish the difference between the two without looking at them and knowing that the Douay has 7 more books.
Toby,

Do your Aunt and Uncle ever denounce your bible for being an unreliable translation since it is based on the Latin? Are they aware that their KJV is from “the original languages”? What I’m getting at is: does any of this even matter to them?
 
Tobinatorstark,

Good comment, too! However, those deutero-canonical writings are missing in your Pentecostal aunt’s and uncle’s A.V. (K.J.V.) Bible only because they purchased a copy of it without that Protestant version’s own “Apocrypha”. No Roman Catholic would allow publishers to maul and to abuse the Douay-Rheims Bible with such omissions!

Jerry Parker

Tobinatorstark wrote: I second that. I use the Douay-Rheims to refute my Pentecostal, KJV-only Aunt and Uncle. My uncle is also a minister in the Pentecostal denomination and they can’t distinguish the difference between the two without looking at them and knowing that the Douay has 7 more books.

+++++++

Jerry Parker had previously written: These are good reasons to obtain and to read the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Bible. Fighting error is important. Reading a Bible version that is accurate is important to understanding the faith, which is grounded in the Holy Scriptures.

All of that and the Douay-Rheims is memorable and beautiful. I find that it is easier to memorise a version that is memorably worded; there is “clutching power” for the mind’s retention in such words.

Also, a beautiful and devout Bible helps with one’s prayers. The Douay-Rheims-Challoner Version leads to meditation, wonder, and to prayer.

Jerry Parker
Very true, but they do refuse to accept that those 7 books to exist. And if they do then they weren’t scriptural and had the right to be removed, if there purpose was only historical. That is their view of things on the 7 books that aren’t in their KJV. Where would one get a copy of the KJV 1769 text (text followed by today’s KJV) with Apocrypha (our Deutrocanonical books)? I have been using my Douay-Rheims on a daily base as my primary source of scripture and take it to adoration to pray the Psalms. On Christmas I got a copy of the Clementine Vulgate (Biblia Sacra Juxta Vulgatam Clementinam, Michael Tweedale 2005). I now read both the Douay-Rheims and the Clementine Vulgate on a daily basis. I am planning on taking the Vulgate to adoration this Thursday for the first time. Our parish only has adoration on the 3rd Thursday of the month. I do have 3 KJV Bibles at home and none of them have the 7 books in them. Two the KJV Bibles were given to me and one I bought myself. Giant print. I like to do compare analysis between the Douay and the KJV. Also the one KJV is a Thompson Chain Reference Bible that belong to my grandfather with his name engraved on it. It hold sentimental value only. If you can give a great place where I can find the KJV with Apocrypha (1769) text it would be helpful with my comparative analysis with the Douay. I am not looking for the Third Mellenium Bible or anything other than King James. It is nice to converse with those with same view on the Douay-Rheims
 
Manfred,

Nice to read your comments, even if some are more pertinent than others on the issues raised. An inexpensive paperback edition of the A.V. (K.J.V.) Bible with the Apocrypha bears the ISBN no.: 9780192835253. If you put in this ISBN number (with no spaces between any of the numbers for that WWW site’s search engine) to plumb Amazon.com or another of the Amazon WWW sites, you can find this. I seem to recall that this cheap Oxford University Press edition is a text only edition, i.e. without the marginal notes and references. Cambridge University Press is notable for having the best and most authentic editions of the A.V. Bible, with a choice of leather-bound editions, at relatively high prices, which have the A.V. with its “Apocrypha”, original marginal notes and references, and other amenities. So, if you are willing not to compromise due to cost, a Cambridge University Press edition is the route to go in purchasing the A.V. (Those marginal readings and notes, and, I think, the references too, were added after the initial 1611 printing by members of the translation teams themselves, and it is they which a really good and authoritative A.V. Bible would include, in full. The marginal notes notes and references include lead the reader at times throughout the O.T. to the deutero-canonical writings in the A.V.'s “Apocrypha”; often sectarian-minded editors and publishers delete those particular references, frequently others as well. Some American editions even dare to replace or augment them with sets of marginal notes and references other than those which the A.V. intended, and those alone and in full, to be used in conjunction with its text.)

The A.V. translators and their Anglican auspices, the Crown and bishops of the Church of England, certainly did not deny the existence of the “Apocrypha”, even if the 39 Articles of Religion of Anglicanism redefined the place of the deutero-canonical writings in Holy Scripture. The vulgar sectarians who have tampered with the A.V. are culpable, certainly, but one should not lay at the feet of the C. of E. the desecrations to the A.V. Bible that non-conformists and sectaries carried out in excising the “Apocrypha” and marginal references throughout the Bible pointing to it. The Crown still insists on the use of the A.V. Bible with the Apocrypha for Royal use, e.g. for Coronation oaths sworn on the Bible.

While it is natural and fitting for a Catholic Christian to prefer the Douay-Rheims Version to the A.V., the place of the A.V. in Bible studies remains important. It is a very precise and beautiful translation of the Holy Scriptures from the Masoretic Hebrew O.T. and Byzantine Ecclesiastical Greek N.T., the best ever undertaken or published deriving uniformly from those sources. There are some passages where a moderate Protestant (i.e. Anglican) bias is evident, but the A.V. never goes to the extremes of the later translations which are so dear to the sectaries (e.g., the New International Version and other such deplorable translations and/or paraphrases, which, of course, never included the deutero-canonical writings at all).

Anyway, good luck finding a true A.V. Bible with “Apocrypha” included! I wish that the kind of extra-Eucharistic devotions that you mention even were available here in modernist R.C. dominated Rouyn-Noranda. I miss them, as well as the litanies and novenas that used to be part of every parish’s weekly fare.

Jerry Parker
 
Manfred,

In the posting that I made yesterday, I stated one matter a bit too categorically:

It * is a very precise and beautiful translation of the Holy Scriptures from the Masoretic Hebrew O.T. and Byzantine Ecclesiastical Greek N.T., the best ever undertaken or published deriving uniformly from those sources.

While the A.V. Bible is based on those texts overall, its translators did take into consideration other sources which influenced their translations, among them the Latin Vulgate Bible.

Of course, it is well known that earlier English Bibles influenced the wording (a separate matter from that of underlying text in other languages) of the A.V., among them the original Douay-Rheims Roman Catholic translation as well as prior Protestant versions in English and in others of Europe’s languages.

Also, of course, the A.V. “Apocrypha” of the Old Testament was based on various Greek (mostly) and Latin texts of the deutero-canonical books. The Hebrew fragments of some of these books had not yet become available to the A.V.'s translators, as I recall from what I have read on the matter.

The underlying Greek text, formulated from all of the Byzantine Greek, the Latin, and the other sources from which the A.V. translators confected the Greek text on which they based their translation of the New Testament, is available in an attractive edition, in easily read Greek font, from the Trinitarian Bible Society.

Sorry having been just a bit too sweepingly general in the comments that I had made, and I hope that this rectifies that.

Jerry Parker*
 
I hope you enjoy the D-R. It is a glorious translation and it is a solid Bible to use in defending the Catholic faith with those that are KJV only
Thanks. I did some research, however, and learned that Challoner copied much of the KJV to contribute to its making. I have no need to concern myself with KJV, at all, really, because I don’t recognize it. Still not sure what to do.🤷
 
Thanks. I did some research, however, and learned that Challoner copied much of the KJV to contribute to its making. I have no need to concern myself with KJV, at all, really, because I don’t recognize it. Still not sure what to do.🤷
That is a gross exaggeration. Challoner adopted some few phrases (but not that much) that seemed easier on the English ear, and which did not change the sense of the DR at all. His revision still follows the sense of the DR exactly. He just wanted it to be less difficult to understand. (Have you ever read the original DR?) :confused:
 
Thanks. I did some research, however, and learned that Challoner copied much of the KJV to contribute to its making. I have no need to concern myself with KJV, at all, really, because I don’t recognize it. Still not sure what to do.🤷
Also if think about it the KJV copied a lot from the Rheims NT 1582 to get started with. Anything changes made by Challoner were only minute changes and anything to change the doctrine to which we believe. He did use some work from the KJV not a lot though
 
That is a gross exaggeration. Challoner adopted some few phrases (but not that much) that seemed easier on the English ear, and which did not change the sense of the DR at all. His revision still follows the sense of the DR exactly. He just wanted it to be less difficult to understand. (Have you ever read the original DR?) :confused:
Haven’t read it. Don’t own one. Just going by what I read on Wikipedia.
 
King Alfred,

Well, the Wikipedia is an useful WWW tool, but it is not learned, not impartial, not peer-reviewed, etc., as any truly scholarly source would be. One should profit from the Wikipedia, but hardly consider that it is some sort of definitive tool. It is not.

Ambrose SJ is right. The influence of the Authorised “King James” Version (A.V.) Bible on Bp. Richard Challoner’s revision of the Douay-Rheims (D.-R.) Bible was stylistic (to its considerable betterment), not exegetic or theological. Certainly, lifting the Douay-Rheims Bible’s literary style to the elegance that Bp. Challoner attained for it is not something to cast off lightly. If the D.-R. Version had remained as it originally was published, it never would have attained the very longtime allegiance of Roman Catholic Christians that it enjoyed (and deserved). As Ambrose SJ suggests, try reading some of the D.-R. version’s original text, which is available in print and on the WWW, and you will see for yourself that it did not have the durable makings, in its initial formulation, of a Bible for everyday and every Christian’s use. What surely would have happened if it had not been for Bp. Challoner’s contribution is that R.C.s would have used the prestigious and lovely Authorised Version as it stood, so great was its superiority as a Bible for the average layman compared to what the R.C. translators at Douay and Rheims at the D.-R. Bible’s beginning had produced,

Think about this, too. Would one reject modern R.C. Bibles that have an oecumenical or outright Protestant origin. Is the Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition (1st or 2nd) to be set aside for that reason? After all, the D.-R.-Challoner and R.S.V.-C.E. Bibles had R.C. auspices and scholarship which produced them and which which profited from or revised worthy earlier versions to make them suitable for R.C. use. Yet the R.S.V.-C.E. is demonstrably preferable to the New American Bible, and to several other putatively R.C. versions, albeit not to quite all of them!

Jerry Parker
 
tobinatorstark;:
Where would one get a copy of the KJV 1769 text (text followed by today’s KJV) with Apocrypha (our Deutrocanonical books)?
a) Try your local Catholic book store. (Most people have forgotten that the KJV was unofficially accepted by the Conference of Bishops. );

b) Your local Anglican/Episcopalian book store might have it. (This probability increases, with the number of local congregations that consider the 1979 Book of Common Prayer to be a tool of the devil, and a thing to be abhorred.)
. If you can give a great place where I can find the KJV with Apocrypha (1769) text
I have it in electronic format. 🙂

jonathon
 
jblake,

That is an interesting nugget of information, that the bishops approved the A.V. (K.J.V.) Bible with Apocrypha for the use of Roman Catholics. I wondered at Peter Kreeft’s suggestion to use the full A.V. Bible, in his 1996 book, Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Cultural War! (That book is well worth reading, even if some of the statements are quite audacious.)

Anyway, there are editions of the A.V. Bible on the various national WWW sites, at various prices, in soft and hard covers, etc.

Jerry Parker
 
Jerry Parker;:
That is an interesting nugget of information, that the bishops approved the A.V. (K.J.V.) Bible with Apocrypha for the use of Roman Catholics.
That approval was as much a reflection of the dominance of the KJV outside of Catholic Christianity. Doctrinally, the KJV was closer to the DR, than other translations of the Bible were.

jonathon
 
Most people have forgotten that the KJV was unofficially accepted by the Conference of Bishops.
We can’t forget something we never knew; from whence cometh this information?
Your local Anglican/Episcopalian book store might have it. (This probability increases, with the number of local congregations that consider the 1979 Book of Common Prayer to be a tool of the devil, and a thing to be abhorred.)
I’m not grasping the sense of your last statement. Please re-phrase.
 
a) Try your local Catholic book store. (Most people have forgotten that the KJV was unofficially accepted by the Conference of Bishops. );
That USCCB accepts the KJV unofficially is actually a redundancy!

USCCB does not have an Apostolical teaching charism, like say a Council of Bishops, or a Bishop alone in his Diocese. The USCCB is strictly an administrative body for the benefit of the Bishops themselves.
 
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