Double Predestination?

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randomusername said:
How does Him not uncreating or destroying the world at the start disprove free will?
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The existence of foreknowledge does not disprove free will but it confirms the existence of fate. This means that God is very aware of your destiny, for example going to hell, yet it persist unify soul with your body at the very time of conception. Are you free to act given situation? Yes. Are you free to change your fate not knowing foreknowledge? No. You are simply trapped.
 
oldcelt said:
Of course it’s wrong, when viewed from the point of an omniscient creator. On a human level…there can be no wrong attached because of the lack of foreknowledge.

John
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As I showed elsewhere on this forum, the only charge you can have again God is (assuming people go to Hell) that God took the risk of creating people with the WONDEROUS ability to go to heaven or to do evil and be punished. Who are you to say that to God with certainty? Was not the good offered? Punishment is not a goal (although Aquinas absurdly thought it was), but it is good to punish evil. So God, for the great good of people attaining virtue, risked sin. In no other way could there be virtue. Is that what you are mad at? 🤷
 
thinkandmull said:
As I showed elsewhere on this forum, the only charge you can have again God is (assuming people go to Hell) that God took the risk of creating people with the WONDEROUS ability to go to heaven or to do evil and be punished. Who are you to say that to God with certainty? Was not the good offered? Punishment is not a goal (although Aquinas absurdly thought it was), but it is good to punish evil. So God, for the great good of people attaining virtue, risked sin. In no other way could there be virtue. Is that what you are mad at? 🤷
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Perordination destroys your argument.
 
Where does the Church teach preordination like you say? Again, why don’t you understand that most Catholics are Molinists…

Stubborn old oldcelt… a good guy 🙂
 
thinkandmull said:
Where does the Church teach preordination like you say? Again, why don’t you understand that most Catholics are Molinists…

Stubborn old oldcelt… a good guy 🙂
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It’s in the Catholic Encyclopedia under Predestination. Molinists still involve God in human affairs…I see no evidence of that.
 
That is a private Encyclopedia. NOT THE CHURCH. Again, we are not arguing with you over whether God is involved in the world yet. We are addressing your argument God is cruel if we believe people go to hell
 
thinkandmull said:
That is a private Encyclopedia. NOT THE CHURCH. Again, we are not arguing with you over whether God is involved in the world yet. We are addressing your argument God is cruel if we believe people go to hell
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It has all the necessary approbations, which means that nothing contained is in any way in conflict with Church teachings.
 
The Church hasn’t condemned Thomism on predestination, but it has not approved it either. So you have no argument here
 
I’m going to step out of this, but thanks to all of you who challenged me. Knowledge does not advance by people constantly agreeing with you. Each of my “adversaries” has given me much to consider. Thanks for that gift,

John
 
Justin777 said:
a Calvanist friend of mine brought up this question, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. In fact, it seems there’s no way out of admitting his conclusion. The question is this:

If God created everyone, and knows everything that happens in their lives, he ultimately knows some will go to hell. So doesn’t this basically prove double predestination? Because why would God create someone when he knows they will end up in hell?
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Double Predestination is the thesis that God causes the damned and the blessed to go to heaven or hell. The damned , Catholic doctrine says, sin and go to hell out of their own volition. Knowledge is not identical to causality.
PS, the church has not condemned annihilationism or human universalism. I find it extremely doubtful that either theory is true, but there.
 
Actually someone can believe in free will (that you are free to choose one or the other) and double predestination. Thomists believe the elect are chosen in that way, but try to be softer when speaking of the damned, although they believe God could save them but doesn’t. I have a recent thread discussing whether an ex-Calvinist can believe that the elect choose efficacious grace freely, but not so freely that they could have chosen not to accept it. Toddlers have free will in a way. The Church isn’t clear on this
 
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