Double Predestination?

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oldcelt, a Catholic Molinist believes that God knows everything, but that is from the ontological fact that He created. He can’t change something that is done. He doesn’t desire the bad. Stop getting hung up on an encyclopedia
 
thinkandmull said:
oldcelt, a Catholic Molinist believes that God knows everything, but that is from the ontological fact that He created. He can’t change something that is done. He doesn’t desire the bad. Stop getting hung up on an encyclopedia
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The problem with Molinism is that God with infallible foreknowledge created what he can’t change. He could have done something else, but he willed this reality into existence. Therefore, he remains discriminatory, petty and cruel.

I have too much respect for the creator to believe any of that.

John
 
Why do you believe it’s wrong to create people with free will to choose what is right? Your position thinks this is evil. Why? Is it wrong to have children because they may turn out to be murderers?
 
thinkandmull said:
Why do you believe it’s wrong to create people with free will to choose what is right? Your position thinks this is evil. Why? Is it wrong to have children because they may turn out to be murderers?
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Of course it’s wrong, when viewed from the point of an omniscient creator. On a human level…there can be no wrong attached because of the lack of foreknowledge.

John
 
thinkandmull said:
“We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events”

Preordain would mean “confirm” by us who reject Thomistic predestination. God can’t prevent things from happening after He used his will from eternity to create. Again there is an ontological order
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God can prevent things. God can intervene(and both Testaments show plenty of examples of this). But that doesn’t mean that everything that happens and doesn’t happen in the world is because of Divine Intervention. God could easily stop you from doing something, but that doesn’t mean He will. He gave us free will. He knows what we will do with that free will, he knows what choices we will make and what will happen. But that doesn’t mean that he made you make those choices
 
randomusername said:
God can prevent things. God can intervene(and both Testaments show plenty of examples of this). But that doesn’t mean that everything that happens and doesn’t happen in the world is because of Divine Intervention. God could easily stop you from doing something, but that doesn’t mean He will. He gave us free will. He knows what we will do with that free will, he knows what choices we will make and what will happen. But that doesn’t mean that he made you make those choices
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He could have stopped it all in the very beginning, yet did not. This world, if you believe in the Christian God, is his complete responsibility. The Church says it…it is written…the attempts to join free will to all this are…disappointing.
 
oldcelt said:
He could have stopped it all in the very beginning, yet did not. This world, if you believe in the Christian God, is his complete responsibility. The Church says it…it is written…the attempts to join free will to all this are…disappointing.
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The Church teaches what God teaches. This is what God teaches in Genesis 4 when God speaks to Cain concerning Cain’s approaching decision to kill Abel.

“Then the LORD said to Cain: Why are you angry? Why are you dejected? If you act rightly, you will be accepted; but if not, sin lies in wait at the door: its urge is for you, yet you can rule over it.”

There is no more obvious teaching of free will than this.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
The Church teaches what God teaches. This is what God teaches in Genesis 4 when God speaks to Cain concerning Cain’s approaching decision to kill Abel.

“Then the LORD said to Cain: Why are you angry? Why are you dejected? If you act rightly, you will be accepted; but if not, sin lies in wait at the door: its urge is for you, yet you can rule over it.”

There is no more obvious teaching of free will than this.
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Written well after the creation, when men were trying to explain what they saw. Free will cannot exist with omniscience and preordination by the creator. I have shown multiple times that The Church teaches both those of these attributes to be part of their God. If these attributes are true…then we are merely players upon a stage.

“To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”

MacBeth

Long enough?
 
oldcelt said:
Written well after the creation, when men were trying to explain what they saw. Free will cannot exist with omniscience and preordination by the creator. I have shown multiple times that The Church teaches both those of these attributes to be part of their God. If these attributes are true…then we are merely players upon a stage.

“To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”

MacBeth

Long enough?
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This is not an answer to the passage from Genesis, where God tells us we, not He, are free to choose.

And by the way, do you think a man who kills another man that he may be king, is a reliable authority on idiocy?
 
Charlemagne_III said:
This is not an answer to the passage from Genesis, where God tells us we, not He, are free to choose.

And by the way, do you think a man who kills another man that he may be king, is a reliable authority on idiocy?
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Well then…here it is…Genesis is an invention of early man. They were trying to explain what was then…unexplainable. It is a metaphor…at best.

John
 
oldcelt said:
Well then…here it is…Genesis is an invention of early man. They were trying to explain what was then…unexplainable. It is a metaphor…at best.

John
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So how do you know it was an invention and a metaphor? Because you want it to be? 😃
 
oldcelt said:
Just keep going down the line…I have all night. When you have a real response…the people here will know.
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When you can learn to write more than one-liners, we will have something to talk about. :D;)
 
Charlemagne_III said:
When you can learn to write more than one-liners, we will have something to talk about. :D;)
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Who ever told you that one must ramble on in order to make a point? Brevity, truly is the soul of wit, though some like to show their intelligence by lengthy and nearly incoherent posts. When one line suffices, use one line…it’s good writing.
I have provided links and quotes to relevant teachings. You have chosen not to respond to them in a number of cases.
Naturally, I can only guess at the motivation.
 
oldcelt said:
I have provided links and quotes to relevant teachings. You have chosen not to respond to them in a number of cases.
Naturally, I can only guess at the motivation.
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Most likely, due to the scarcity of your words, I had no way of knowing why you sent me to the links.

I’m not in the habit of going down blind alleys.

Of course brevity is the soul of wit, but every soul needs a body … of thoughts.

With you I’m barely getting a skeleton. Eat less chicken and more beef. 😉

In any case, until you learn what a paragraph is and start writing some, I will pass on your posts.

Thanks anyway. 🤷 :sad_bye:
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Most likely, due to the scarcity of your words, I had no way of knowing why you sent me to the links.

I’m not in the habit of going down blind alleys.

Of course brevity is the soul of wit, but every soul needs a body … of thoughts.

With you I’m barely getting a skeleton. Eat less chicken and more beef. 😉

In any case, until you learn what a paragraph is and start writing some, I will pass on your posts.

Thanks anyway. 🤷 :sad_bye:
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Bye.
 
From this very organization:
For Catholics, when God “establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace” (CCC 600). Thus, anyone who is finally saved will have been predestined by God because it was God’s predestined plan and God’s grace that went before him and enabled him to be saved.
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However, this does not mean that God has predestined anyone for hell. Indeed, the Bible cannot be any plainer than to say God is, “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pt 3:9). God wills all to be saved. To be damned, a person must willfully reject God’s “predestined plan” for his salvation (cf. CCC 2037): simple enough.
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catholic.com/magazine/articles/predestined-for-freedom

Again, no real explanation of how predestination and free will can exist together. Instead, they offer declarative statements like: “To be damned, a person must willfully reject God’s “predestined plan” for his salvation.” What they skip around is that their God knew from all eternity precisely what would happen, and still created the universe and us. Why should their be a need for salvation at all?
The answer to that is simple in my mind. God is the first cause of creation, but not a micro manager. He has left the universe to develop as it will, and we are a consequence of that initial act, albeit way down the road in human terms. There is no predestination, no hell, and, most likely, no after life.
 
oldcelt said:
He could have stopped it all in the very beginning, yet did not. This world, if you believe in the Christian God, is his complete responsibility. The Church says it…it is written…the attempts to join free will to all this are…disappointing.
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How does Him not uncreating or destroying the world at the start disprove free will?
 
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