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oldcelt
Guest
Just to add something…the “eternal now” argument does not release a creator of responsibility. In that instant of creation that creator still knew everything that would result…everything.
John
John
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Why would God allowing us to make our own decision make -Him- evil?I think you’ve got it.
He creates us for Good, and allows us to accept or reject that purpose. Our decision determines where we meet our final end. Why should He be held responsible for the decisions of His creation?
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oldcelt
Guest
Because he is omniscient. He knew at the moment of creation who would be saved and who would not be, infallibly. This is Catholic Doctrine…and it denies free will.Why would God allowing us to make our own decision make -Him- evil?
He creates us for Good, and allows us to accept or reject that purpose. Our decision determines where we meet our final end. Why should He be held responsible for the decisions of His creation?
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Only if time in linear, and he was, in a sense, looking into the future. That is certainly how it seems from our perspective, but not from God’s, who is outside of time. (Time is an aspect of physical reality. God it outside of physical reality. Therefore, God is outside of time as we know it.)and it denies free will.
To God, our decisions have already been made, are in the process of being made, and will be made, all in the same “instant.” The best way I can describe it is that God is like a quantum superstate, where time really has no meaning, and all things occur at once. This is not a complete analogy, but then again, no analogy is fully complete. God only knows our end because we have already made our decisions. This does not violate free will because it is still us that makes the decision.
Maybe this will help. The common image of a psychic is a person that knows the future, they can see what’s going to happen. Let’s say they use their ability to determine the next day’s lottery numbers, and they win the lottery. Their knowledge has no affect on the randomness of the numbers chosen because the method of selection is the same as if they didn’t know; the psychic knows what the numbers will be because in their psychic vision the numbers have already been selected. God’s omniscience is like that psychic ability to the infinite degree. (Again, an incomplete yet effect analogy.)
God doesn’t have “foreknowledge” of our actions in the common sense of the word. He simply isn’t bound by the flow of time like we are. From his perspective, there is no past or future, only one continuous “now” in which the entirety of eternity takes place.
It’s a very complex subject, and one that had been written about at length by people far more intelligent than myself.
O
oldcelt
Guest
Since he isn’t bound by the flow of time, he knew from the instant of creation precisely what would happen in every sense. Therefore, creation, and its results on all levels is his responsibility. I see no way around that, and it is the primary reason I left Christianity. I don’t believe that god would be in any way involved with the things I have seen.Only if time in linear, and he was, in a sense, looking into the future. That is certainly how it seems from our perspective, but not from God’s, who is outside of time. (Time is an aspect of physical reality. God it outside of physical reality. Therefore, God is outside of time as we know it.)
**To God, our decisions have already been made, are in the process of being made, and will be made, all in the same “instant.” The best way I can describe it is that God is like a quantum superstate, where time really has no meaning, and all things occur at once. This is not a complete analogy, but then again, no analogy is fully complete. God only knows our end because we have already made our decisions. This does not violate free will because it is still us that makes the decision. **
Maybe this will help. The common image of a psychic is a person that knows the future, they can see what’s going to happen. Let’s say they use their ability to determine the next day’s lottery numbers, and they win the lottery. Their knowledge has no affect on the randomness of the numbers chosen because the method of selection is the same as if they didn’t know; the psychic knows what the numbers will be because in their psychic vision the numbers have already been selected. God’s omniscience is like that psychic ability to the infinite degree. (Again, an incomplete yet effect analogy.)
God doesn’t have “foreknowledge” of our actions in the common sense of the word. He simply isn’t bound by the flow of time like we are. From his perspective, there is no past or future, only one continuous “now” in which the entirety of eternity takes place.
It’s a very complex subject, and one that had been written about at length by people far more intelligent than myself.
P
ProdglArchitect
Guest
Again, I ask, how does knowing what we will chose make Him responsible for our choices? Furthermore, why does the fact that some of us will chose poorly make Him evil if his intent was for us to chose well? Why should -our- bad decisions infringe on His desire to create us? We’re the ones abusing our gifts, not Him.Since he isn’t bound by the flow of time, he knew from the instant of creation precisely what would happen in every sense. Therefore, creation, and its results on all levels is his responsibility. I see no way around that, and it is the primary reason I left Christianity. I don’t believe that god would be in any way involved with the things I have seen.
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oldcelt
Guest
Because the Christian God is the omniscient and immutable creator who preordained all future events.Again, I ask, how does knowing what we will chose make Him responsible for our choices? Furthermore, why does the fact that some of us will chose poorly make Him evil if his intent was for us to chose well? Why should -our- bad decisions infringe on His desire to create us? We’re the ones abusing our gifts, not Him.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
You are asserting that God has preordained all future events. What is your proof for that assertion?Because the Christian God is the omniscient and immutable creator who preordained all future events.
Knowing an event will happen is not the same thing as causing it or desiring it. I know with 100% certainty that someone will die today, that doesn’t mean I cause it or desire it.
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Bahman
Guest
What would be the content of act of creation then?You are asserting that God has preordained all future events. What is your proof for that assertion?
Knowing an event will happen is not the same thing as causing it or desiring it. I know with 100% certainty that someone will die today, that doesn’t mean I cause it or desire it.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
That didn’t make a lick of sense. Please try asking in another way.What would be the content of act of creation then?
O
oldcelt
Guest
What is my proof…how about the Catholic Encyclopedia:You are asserting that God has preordained all future events. What is your proof for that assertion?
Knowing an event will happen is not the same thing as causing it or desiring it. I know with 100% certainty that someone will die today, that doesn’t mean I cause it or desire it.
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htmGod’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which contains the names of all the elect and admits neither additions nor erasures. From the Old Testament (cf. Exodus 32:32; Psalm 68:29) this symbol was taken over into the New by Christ and His Apostle Paul (cf. Luke 10:20; Hebrews 12:23), and enlarged upon by the Evangelist John in his Apocalypse [cf. Apocalypse 21:27: “There shall not enter into it anything defiled … but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb” (cf. Revelation 13:8; 20:15)]. The correct explanation of this symbolic book is given by St. Augustine (City of God XX.13): “Præscientia Dei quæ non potest falli, liber vitæ est” (the foreknowledge of God, which cannot err, is the book of life).
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CrossofChrist
Guest
I would think it would be almost self-evident looking just at temporal progress. Unless you don’t think humanity has progressed at all since, say, Nero.I don’t see any evidence of that. Perhaps I’ve studied too much history and religion to believe in a benevolent overseer.
John
In any case, it seems to me your real problem with Christianity is that you have taken the path of a rationalist, in that you want to compartmentalize God. I’m also curious as to your beliefs about good/evil if we’re all alone. But I digress.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Foreknowledge is not the same thing as active predestination… as I’ve said… about six times now… You still haven’t made a logical argument supporting your claim.
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oldcelt
Guest
You conveniently skipped the foreordaining part. Gotta go. Good talking with you and I hope for more in the near future.Foreknowledge is not the same thing as active predestination… as I’ve said… about six times now… You still haven’t made a logical argument supporting your claim.
Be well, John
O
oldcelt
Guest
I believe everything…good or bad…is a product of human activity without any Divine intervention at any point in our existence as a species.I would think it would be almost self-evident looking just at temporal progress. Unless you don’t think humanity has progressed at all since, say, Nero.
In any case, it seems to me your real problem with Christianity is that you have taken the path of a rationalist, in that you want to compartmentalize God. I’m also curious as to your beliefs about good/evil if we’re all alone. But I digress.
Be well,
John
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Yes, there are specific things which were foreordained. That doesn’t mean everything was. The things that are pre-ordained are pretty well laid out in the Bible. A good example is Mary becoming the Mother of Christ. Even in that instance, arguable the most explicitly stated instance of preordination in the whole Bible, God still sought out Mary’s “Yes” before actually enacting His Will. He still allowed her to make the choice, preserving her free will.You conveniently skipped the foreordaining part. Gotta go. Good talking with you and I hope for more in the near future.
Be well, John
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Bahman
Guest
God knows the content of act of creation, us and our actions. How we could exist otherwise?That didn’t make a lick of sense. Please try asking in another way.
R
randomusername
Guest
God knows what we are going to do before we are even born because He is all knowing. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t our choice to do what we are doing. It just means that God already knows how we will use our free-will. Knowing what we will do isn’t the same as making us do it.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Correct, he does know. Again, however, I remind you that knowing is not the same thing as causing, or even wanting.God knows the content of act of creation, us and our actions. How we could exist otherwise?
B
Bahman
Guest
How God could knows something at the same time set it free?Correct, he does know. Again, however, I remind you that knowing is not the same thing as causing, or even wanting.
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