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oldcelt
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Precisely
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CrossofChrist
Guest
Ordering maybe isn’t the word I was looking for…modern connotations associated with that…No, thank you very much, but, limbo was taught in my youth and made no more sense than the rest. Epiphanies are a wonderful thing.
BTW, if God is ordering us, He is responsible for our destiny. You simply cannot avoid that omniscience issue.
Call might be a better word. Or invite. In any case, in Christ we are all called to a supernatural end. Yet we can also reject that call.
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Tolkien13
Guest
Not “Predestination” as such. Only how the Calvinists misconstrue it.Knowledge of where we will end up does not equate to a desire on His part to send us to hell. Just because God knows where I will end up based on the choices I make, does not mean He made me make them. If we are pre-destined (no matter where we are destined for) we are slaves. THERE IS NO FREE WILL in pre-destination. This makes a mockery of Jesus’ teachings. You can also throw out 1 Timothy 2 if you hold to pre-destination.
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oldcelt
Guest
Calls us with perfect foreknowledge of the outcome…from all eternity.Ordering maybe isn’t the word I was looking for…modern connotations associated with that…
Call might be a better word. Or invite. In any case, in Christ we are all called to a supernatural end. Yet we can also reject that call.
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thinkandmull
Guest
The OP asked a great question. The ideas of God must be in proper order, although this may just be a distinction of reason for us. God chooses to create us, some sin and fall and go to hell, and then he knows, from all eternity, that this happened. God sees the damnation in the same glance as the sin
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thinkandmull
Guest
Justin777;12391335:
they will end up in hell?a Calvanist friend of mine brought up this question, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. In fact, it seems there’s no way out of admitting his conclusion. The question is this:
If God created everyone, and knows everything that happens in their lives, he ultimately knows some will go to hell. So doesn’t this basically prove double predestination? Because why would God create someone when he knows
In order to refute something, we cannot refute with love if we use words like “stupid” or “ludicrous.” Just because we disagree does not make us right. We are not the authority.
The Catholic Church believes in predestination. The Catechism clearly states that the Virgin Mary was predestined. It also speaks to Jesus’ crucifixion being predestined. We know that that God chose the nation of Israel not for who they were or did. He chose them because it was His will. So predestination is true. The issue is with double predestination.
Double predestination is logical. That doesn’t mean it’s correct. It is logical: If God predestined some for salvation, a natural conclusion is that the others are predestined to hell. Many Catholics go wrong when they believe they are chosen because they first chose Christ. Jesus says, no, I chose you. This leads me to the conclusion that predestination is a mystery which lies in the secret things of God.
When refuting others, get them to think. Ask, “If double predestination is true, are you predestined for salvation?” If the person says yes, how does he know with certainty? If he says because he believes or baptism, so did Judas, Simon Magus and others. They are relying upon a presumption, not evidence. I think the person has to at some point admit they cooperate with God’s will.
Since Aquinas’s view of salvation is surely wrong, we will have to say that God did not know the Jews and Romans would crucify Jesus apart from the fact that Satan would so enter their hearts that they must do so. Satan would not give up an opportunity to cause pain to Jesus.
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oldcelt
Guest
If the Christian God is truly omniscient, then he knows all even before an individual creation.The OP asked a great question. The ideas of God must be in proper order, although this may just be a distinction of reason for us. God chooses to create us, some sin and fall and go to hell, and then he knows, from all eternity, that this happened. God sees the damnation in the same glance as the sin
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CrossofChrist
Guest
God is infinitely greater, and can bring good out of any evil.Calls us with perfect foreknowledge of the outcome…from all eternity.
C
CrossofChrist
Guest
On this we agree.If the Christian God is truly omniscient, then he knows all even before an individual creation.
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thinkandmull
Guest
Yes but the thought “I will create” comes before the thought “some died in mortal sin”. Its not like God says “I know Judas will die in mortal sin but I will create him anyway”. He wills to create and sees what happens and knows what happens, all in eternity. We enfold in time. See?
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oldcelt
Guest
I don’t see any evidence of that. Perhaps I’ve studied too much history and religion to believe in a benevolent overseer.God is infinitely greater, and can bring good out of any evil.
John
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oldcelt
Guest
Not according to Catholic theology…From the Catholic Encyclopedia:Yes but the thought “I will create” comes before the thought “some died in mortal sin”. Its not like God says “I know Judas will die in mortal sin but I will create him anyway”. He wills to create and sees what happens and knows what happens, all in eternity. We enfold in time. See?
First, that predestination exists, i.e. that** God knows from eternity with infallible certainty who will be saved** and that He wills from eternity to give them the graces by which salvation will be secured, is obvious from reason and is taught by Christ Himself (John 10:27), and by St. Paul (Romans 8:29, 30).
newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm#IIDSecond, while God has this infallible foreknowledge, we on our part cannot have an absolutely certain assurance that we are among the number of the predestined — unless indeed by means of a special Divine revelation such as we know from experience is rarely, if ever, given. This follows from the Tridentine condemnation of the teaching of the Reformers that we could and ought to believe with the certainty of faith in our own justification and election (Sess. VI, cap. ix, can. xiii-xv).
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thinkandmull
Guest
You’re not understanding what I am saying. God in eternity willed that the world exist. We in time do our sins and some die in mortal sin. God from all eternity knows this, but can He will that we don’t exist even though we do from His first willing? You’re not seeing how time and eternity interact
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thinkandmull
Guest
You are saying that God wills us to be, than sees us sin, and then takes back His will to create. But His first willing was already in effect. The OP is putting the horse ahead of the carriage
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oldcelt
Guest
I think you are not seeing his perfect foreknowledge. A creator cannot escape responsibility by hiding behind time. He knew absolutely what he was doing according to Catholicism.You’re not understanding what I am saying. God in eternity willed that the world exist. We in time do our sins and some die in mortal sin. God from all eternity knows this, but can He will that we don’t exist even though we do from His first willing? You’re not seeing how time and eternity interact
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powerofk
Guest
The Will of God is that all go to Heaven. The problem with double predestination is the fruits of the idea - whatever you do here doesn’t matter, as God has whimsically decided whether you will end up in Heaven or Hell. Now Calvinists themselves even taught that it was heretical to take the idea of Double Predestination to such extremes (as it has been in some circles - originally in colonial MA or CT). The original idea was that one could tell if someone had been saved based on their fruits (and the fruits of their labor - IIRC, the “prosperity gospel” came out of Calvinist thinking - God would shower material benefits on His elect).
Now, we are all predestined for Heaven. And God does know as soon as a soul is created what choices that person will have, and ultimately how the person will respond to those choices. It’s funny, though - I almost think that God might see all the various paths that a person may take in life, as He never gives up on us. Eternity is strange.
For example, prayers from the future can affect the past. Sure, we won’t have an effect on whether the Holocaust happened, but… I once read (or heard, I forget which) a story about a village in Africa. In the village was a young girl who had recently lost her entire family except for her younger sister. This young girl prayed for someone to give water and food for her village, which was suffering from famine and drought. She also asked for a Teddy bear for her sister to help her sister cope. Not too long after, a package arrived for her village. It had been sent months earlier from England - before the young girl’s family had died. It contained food and water. The girl exclaimed, “If God got us this food and water, He must have sent my sister a Teddy bear!” Lo and behold, there was also a Teddy bear in the aid package. There was no way the people in England would have known that months later, there would be a girl in need of a Teddy bear. They had just sent it.
This is the second reason why we pray for the dead. Not only do we ask that a person’s journey through Purgatory may be swift, but also that the person may have, at least in his or her heart (if no opportunity for Confession was possible) repented of all his/her sins and died in God’s friendship.
By the way - sometimes, it’s better to just take things on faith and not try to figure out how they work. There’s a reason why things of the eternal realm are called “mysteries”. When we try to wrap our head around mysteries of faith, we give ourselves headaches - I believe in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. I believe in God being One, yet having Three Persons - equally God but with each Person having different roles and responsibilities. I believe that Jesus was conceived miraculously in the womb of the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit, and that He is both fully God and fully human. I believe that the bread and wine really do become the Body and Blood of Jesus during the Eucharistic Prayer. But ask me to explain how any of these? I don’t think I can without delving into material heresy. These things have been defined as true by the Church - but we won’t understand them until we are with God Himself in the beatific vision.
Now, we are all predestined for Heaven. And God does know as soon as a soul is created what choices that person will have, and ultimately how the person will respond to those choices. It’s funny, though - I almost think that God might see all the various paths that a person may take in life, as He never gives up on us. Eternity is strange.
For example, prayers from the future can affect the past. Sure, we won’t have an effect on whether the Holocaust happened, but… I once read (or heard, I forget which) a story about a village in Africa. In the village was a young girl who had recently lost her entire family except for her younger sister. This young girl prayed for someone to give water and food for her village, which was suffering from famine and drought. She also asked for a Teddy bear for her sister to help her sister cope. Not too long after, a package arrived for her village. It had been sent months earlier from England - before the young girl’s family had died. It contained food and water. The girl exclaimed, “If God got us this food and water, He must have sent my sister a Teddy bear!” Lo and behold, there was also a Teddy bear in the aid package. There was no way the people in England would have known that months later, there would be a girl in need of a Teddy bear. They had just sent it.
This is the second reason why we pray for the dead. Not only do we ask that a person’s journey through Purgatory may be swift, but also that the person may have, at least in his or her heart (if no opportunity for Confession was possible) repented of all his/her sins and died in God’s friendship.
By the way - sometimes, it’s better to just take things on faith and not try to figure out how they work. There’s a reason why things of the eternal realm are called “mysteries”. When we try to wrap our head around mysteries of faith, we give ourselves headaches - I believe in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. I believe in God being One, yet having Three Persons - equally God but with each Person having different roles and responsibilities. I believe that Jesus was conceived miraculously in the womb of the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit, and that He is both fully God and fully human. I believe that the bread and wine really do become the Body and Blood of Jesus during the Eucharistic Prayer. But ask me to explain how any of these? I don’t think I can without delving into material heresy. These things have been defined as true by the Church - but we won’t understand them until we are with God Himself in the beatific vision.
O
oldcelt
Guest
I don’t accept another human telling me something is a mystery, no matter who said it,The Will of God is that all go to Heaven. The problem with double predestination is the fruits of the idea - whatever you do here doesn’t matter, as God has whimsically decided whether you will end up in Heaven or Hell. Now Calvinists themselves even taught that it was heretical to take the idea of Double Predestination to such extremes (as it has been in some circles - originally in colonial MA or CT). The original idea was that one could tell if someone had been saved based on their fruits (and the fruits of their labor - IIRC, the “prosperity gospel” came out of Calvinist thinking - God would shower material benefits on His elect).
Now, we are all predestined for Heaven. And God does know as soon as a soul is created what choices that person will have, and ultimately how the person will respond to those choices. It’s funny, though - I almost think that God might see all the various paths that a person may take in life, as He never gives up on us. Eternity is strange.
For example, prayers from the future can affect the past. Sure, we won’t have an effect on whether the Holocaust happened, but… I once read (or heard, I forget which) a story about a village in Africa. In the village was a young girl who had recently lost her entire family except for her younger sister. This young girl prayed for someone to give water and food for her village, which was suffering from famine and drought. She also asked for a Teddy bear for her sister to help her sister cope. Not too long after, a package arrived for her village. It had been sent months earlier from England - before the young girl’s family had died. It contained food and water. The girl exclaimed, “If God got us this food and water, He must have sent my sister a Teddy bear!” Lo and behold, there was also a Teddy bear in the aid package. There was no way the people in England would have known that months later, there would be a girl in need of a Teddy bear. They had just sent it.
This is the second reason why we pray for the dead. Not only do we ask that a person’s journey through Purgatory may be swift, but also that the person may have, at least in his or her heart (if no opportunity for Confession was possible) repented of all his/her sins and died in God’s friendship.
By the way - sometimes, it’s better to just take things on faith and not try to figure out how they work. There’s a reason why things of the eternal realm are called “mysteries”. When we try to wrap our head around mysteries of faith, we give ourselves headaches - I believe in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. I believe in God being One, yet having Three Persons - equally God but with each Person having different roles and responsibilities. I believe that Jesus was conceived miraculously in the womb of the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit, and that He is both fully God and fully human. I believe that the bread and wine really do become the Body and Blood of Jesus during the Eucharistic Prayer. But ask me to explain how any of these? I don’t think I can without delving into material heresy. These things have been defined as true by the Church - but we won’t understand them until we are with God Himself in the beatific vision.
when the answer is obvious. We are on our own and have been since we crawled down from the trees. To me, there is not one scintilla of evidence for a benevolent and involved god. History is a great teacher when it comes to this.
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thinkandmull
Guest
He knows that he created free will, and He knows what someone does with it, but saying He can prevent it from happening after He discovers, in eternity and always, what that person did with the free will makes no sense at all.I think you are not seeing his perfect foreknowledge. A creator cannot escape responsibility by hiding behind time. He knew absolutely what he was doing according to Catholicism.
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thinkandmull
Guest
God’s foreknowledge is ontological posterior to the action of the free will, so how can He “after” that foreknowledge decide that the free will will not have acted?
God would be evil if He knew people would go to hell but created those people anyway
God would be evil if He knew people would go to hell but created those people anyway
O
oldcelt
Guest
I think you’ve got it.God’s foreknowledge is ontological posterior to the action of the free will, so how can He “after” that foreknowledge decide that the free will will not have acted?
God would be evil if He knew people would go to hell but created those people anyway
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