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Churchman25
Guest
I know its a heresy and must be rejected but what exactly is double predestination?
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Hatikvah
Guest
Double predestination is the teaching that God chooses some for salvation and damns the rest to Hell. The other common view of “chosen” predestination (for lack of any words on this right now) is that God chooses some but leaves others to Hell by their own will. They seem the same, but there is a difference:
Double predestination: God chooses some for Heaven and some for Hell
Otherwise predestination: God chooses some for Heaven and that’s all (the rest go to Hell by default)
You will find that many Catholics, reasonably, are Molinists.
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PaulfromIowa
Guest
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm
“A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP” by James Akin
“How To Understand Predestination From A Catholic Perspective” by Marcel LeJeune
“A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP” by James Akin
aggiecatholicblog.org/2014/10/how-to-understand-predestination-from-a-catholic-perspective/
“How To Understand Predestination From A Catholic Perspective” by Marcel LeJeune
Technically, double-predestination is a combination of unconditioned predestination to glory “ante praevisa merita” and unconditioned positive reprobation “ante praevisa demerita”, i.e. without consideration of foreseen merits/demerits.
The former is acceptable in Catholic thought, but the latter is not. It is a heresy because it’s unscriptural: it clearly contradicts the revealed truth that “God wants all people to be saved” and that “God desires that no one should perish.”
Catholicism does teach reprobation, that is that certain people are predestined to hell (the Catechism’s statement “God predestines no one to hell” is too brief and too succint to carry the complete teaching), but it is always conditioned “post et propter praevisa demerita” (in light of and due to foreseen [freely chosen] demerits, i.e. unrepented mortal sins). I find that the Molinist position best accounts for predestination and reprobation.
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Churchman25
Guest
So reprobation Is Gods ability to know who will reject him in the end.
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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
Is it ok if we worry to much about our level of Faith ?
Not quite, although God’s knowledge is definitely a significant part of it. In Catholic thought, predestination and reprobation is not merely foreknowledge, but also part of God’s active and eternal decree.
In the Molinist position, God, through his middle knowledge, knows how every person will freely respond to any given grace. Then, for no reason other than his own sovereign will, he lays out a fixed order of grace. This is where predestination and reprobation comes in, because God has laid down a certain order that he knows will send some to heaven and others to hell.
As with all things divine, as predestination and grace are part of Divine Providence, this order of grace is immutable, as are the numbers of the predestined and the reprobate. We also need to describe the “process” linearly, but we must also keep in mind that in God, there is no movement or change. All of this is God’s eternal action.
So it’s not merely his knowledge, according to the Molinist position, but also his active ordained decree. Who goes to heaven or hell is something that God not merely foreknows, but also ordains.
I don’t find the Thomist position satisfactory; it’s pretty much the functional equivalent of Calvinist double predestination.
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Churchman25
Guest
What we need to do is trust in God for he will not fail us. So if you are worrying about your level of faith, try trusting in God that you will persevere through bad times.
po18guy
Well-known member
It goes further than that. D/P insists that God, before time began, conceived of and later created certain men and women for the specific purpose of rotting in hell. The vengeful God who detested his own creations appeared nowhere in Christianity until 16th century Europe.
If those who formulated (innovated) the concept of double predestination had read the Book of Wisdom, their novel doctrines gave no evidence of it.
Wisdom 2:22-23
…and they did not know the secret purposes of God,
nor hope for the wages of holiness,
nor discern the prize for blameless souls;
for God created man for incorruption,
and made him in the image of his own eternity,
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LiamQ
Guest
This is not quite accurate. In their view, God has created those people, not to rot in hell as an end, but so as: (a) to display His justice and (b) display His glory and mercy in those whom He has saved. Remember, in their view, absolutely no one who is born is innocent or is deserving of anything other than hell. Being permitted to go there is simply justice. Of course, they invoke St. Paul:
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Anyway, I’m sure you know all this, I just wanted to better reflect their position in a way which I think they would themselves state. The way you’ve worded it seems to be a bit of deck-stacking, if I may humbly say so.
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Hatikvah
Guest
Yes, but what doesn’t make sense is why God would bother putting us on the earth in the first place if some were made to be damned. Why couldn’t the elect go straight through to Heaven?
Jonathan Edwards, a notable New England preacher who had a Calvinist style, was led to the idea that God must have only done this to enjoy our suffering in this life, and then later the eternal suffering of Hell (and yet some people call the traditional conception of God unsettling!)
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Churchman25
Guest
They are damned because of thier own mortal sins that they commited its just that God is all knowing and before the begining of time he put together a master plan for all eternity. This plan includes for Humans a series of graces in which we will go to heaven or not.
Why do you think that God enjoys people,s suffering?
Its like Do you really think he liked watching his only suffer on the cross. He willed it because it was necessary for human salvation. Just like all things he wills are nessasary. So what I’m trying to get at here is suffering though he may not like it is necessary.
Why do you think that God enjoys people,s suffering?
Its like Do you really think he liked watching his only suffer on the cross. He willed it because it was necessary for human salvation. Just like all things he wills are nessasary. So what I’m trying to get at here is suffering though he may not like it is necessary.
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Hatikvah
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I never said this (the top portion that I quoted implies that it was directed towards me). I was referring to Jonathan Edwards’ idea, where he took it to the extreme. I do not hold any of those ideas, let alone a direct view of predestination (so more in the direction of Arminianism, Luther’s view, or Molinism, which are all close). You’re right, of course: God does not enjoy our suffering, and it would be a sickening assumption to say so. It would make all of His redemptive work for us seem like some sort of odd game.
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Churchman25
Guest
It seemed that you were supporting the quote, even though it’s clear that you were not now.
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steve_b
Guest
This is true, but reprobation is more than just God’s foreknowledge. It’s also part of the divine decree as I explained the Catholic position on it. Just not the way the Calvinists put it (which is a horrible theology).
As unpleasant as it is, we need to accept reprobation (with all its components: God’s knowledge, God’s decree and man’s free will) as a revealed truth, as it is supported by Scripture and the Church.
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steve_b
Guest
No one is made to be damned as if they had no choice in the matter.
just because God knows in advance everything we will choose, before we choose it, using our own free will, does it mean He causes / caused us to make choices against our will. That goes for good and bad choices alike. Therefore, while God knows in advance who will go to hell, he causes / caused no one to go there. They go there based on their choices
No need for Jesus to warn anyone of hell, if they had/have no choice in the matter of going there
Jesus doesn’t force us to make choices against our will.
For example:
Jesus tells His disciples what they must do. They say it’s too hard to even listen to it. So they leave him. Jesus knew in advance they would leave. He even said He knew in advance they “didn’t believe”. When they left Him, did Jesus go after them? Nope! They made their choice…freely. And Jesus let them go.
from the bread of life discourse. (John 6:51-70)
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Jesus doesn’t cause anyone to go to hell. They go there because of the choices they make
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Hatikvah
Guest
Absolutely, yes. This would be cruel (note: it was hypothetical, and these are not my views, just the views of some extreme theologies of the past). Of course, we have free will and we are damned because of God’s justice, not because of some theologized attribute that was made up.
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