Double trouble!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tyrion
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
snarflemike said:
Please explain how this example could be answered “correctly”. Walk us through the steps.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what you find difficult. But I’ll walk you through it.
  1. Tyrion asks God his question.
  2. God makes his prediction (say that Tyrion will roll two sixes)
  3. I offer my prediction (say that Tyrion will roll one six).
  4. After hearing both our predictions Tyrion decides to roll only one die
  5. By chance he gets a six and I am correct.
This is the point - Tyrions decision is contingent on Gods prediction, not mine. So it’s impossible for God to answer the question correctly but perfectly possible for anyone else to do so. Thus God is unable to answer a valid question, so he cannot demonstrate his omniscience.

This doesn’t seem to really take us anywhere though as I don’t know of anyone who claims that God CAN demonstrate his omniscience. Surely that makes the point rather moot?
 
CandideWest said:
One of us has clearly misunderstood Tyrions argument. I though the point he was making is that it is impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. This is because in order for God to demonstrate his omniscience he must be able to correctly answer ANY question asked of him (for which there is a correct answer), and Tyrion has demonstrated that in any matter of free will we must always be free to make decisions contrary to the “correct” answer provided by God.

Thus God CANNOT successfully answer every valid question asked (he may know the answer but cannot state it) thus God cannot demonstrate his own omniscience. This logic seems to work fine and your argument hasn’t touched it as far as I can see, let alone trounced it. Even more so given that in the above post you seem to have agreed with Tyrions conclusion even if you didn’t use the same method.
Click to expand...
tyrion asked God to predict the number tyrion would choose before tyrion would change his mind. God did that and the answer was three.
 
Paddy_Walker said:
tyrion asked God to predict the number tyrion would choose before tyrion would change his mind. God did that and the answer was three.
Click to expand...
No, that isn’t the experiment here. Tyrion asked God to predict the result of his future dice roll. Whatever prediction God makes Tyrion employs his free will to make it false. Thus God cannot provide a correct answer.
 
CandideWest said:
No, that isn’t the experiment here. Tyrion asked God to predict the result of his future dice roll. Whatever prediction God makes Tyrion employs his free will to make it false. Thus God cannot provide a correct answer.
Click to expand...
but that is what happened.
tyrion asked God to predict a number. God did. then tyrion chose a different number. the number God chose was the correct number. the fact that tyrion later, after the event, changed his mind has nothing to do with the experiment. tyrion is always free to choose again.
 
Paddy_Walker said:
but that is what happened.
tyrion asked God to predict a number. God did. then tyrion chose a different number. the number God chose was the correct number. the fact that tyrion later, after the event, changed his mind has nothing to do with the experiment. tyrion is always free to choose again.
Click to expand...
Nope, that would be a DIFFERENT thought experiment, and yes your solution works fine IF Tyrion had been asking God to predict the number he has been intending to choose. But that’s not what this is about. Here’s the original post so you can see what the thought experiment on this thread is.
Tyrion said:
Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. 🙂 If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. 🙂 If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. 😉 Can anyone refute this logic?
Click to expand...
See? It’s asking God to predict a future dice roll.
 
CandideWest said:
Nope, that would be a DIFFERENT thought experiment, and yes your solution works fine IF Tyrion had been asking God to predict the number he has been intending to choose. But that’s not what this is about. Here’s the original post so you can see what the thought experiment on this thread is.

See? It’s asking God to predict a future dice roll.
Click to expand...
it doesn’t really change it. God predicts what numbers tyrion will throw in the future, and they are the numbers tyrion would have thrown had tyrion not changed his mind after he heard God’s prediction. if tyrion had not heard nor asked for God’s prediction then he could not have chosen a different number to the predicted number.
tyrions experiment has two different events, a prediction and then a change of mind after hearing the prediction. there must be a better experiment, one where you don’t choose the result yourself.
 
Paddy_Walker said:
it doesn’t really change it. God predicts what numbers tyrion will throw in the future, and they are the numbers tyrion would have thrown had tyrion not changed his mind after he heard God’s prediction. if tyrion had not heard nor asked for God’s prediction then he could not have chosen a different number to the predicted number.
tyrions experiment has two different events, a prediction and then a change of mind after hearing the prediction. there must be a better experiment, one where you don’t choose the result yourself.
Click to expand...
Er, but that is exactly the point. That’s why this thought experiment shows what Tyrion set out to show.

Sure there are other thought experiments you can invent which show other things, but that doesn’t change the fact that the one Tyrion presented shows that God cannot demonstrate his omniscience.

Once again, all it is showing is that given our free will it is logically impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. I’m not sure why this is causing consternation?
 
CandideWest said:
Er, but that is exactly the point. That’s why this thought experiment shows what Tyrion set out to show.

Sure there are other thought experiments you can invent which show other things, but that doesn’t change the fact that the one Tyrion presented shows that God cannot demonstrate his omniscience.

Once again, all it is showing is that given our free will it is logically impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. I’m not sure why this is causing consternation?
Click to expand...
The source of the consternation is the assumption that if God cannot demonstrate His omniscience, then it is impossible for us to know whether He is omniscient, as if direct observation is the only way to know whether something is certainly true.
 
CandideWest said:
Er, but that is exactly the point. That’s why this thought experiment shows what Tyrion set out to show.

Sure there are other thought experiments you can invent which show other things, but that doesn’t change the fact that the one Tyrion presented shows that God cannot demonstrate his omniscience.

Once again, all it is showing is that given our free will it is logically impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. I’m not sure why this is causing consternation?
Click to expand...
no, you don’t understand me. tyrion asked God for the number before he changed his mind, not for the number after tyrion changed his mind. and tyrion shows us the number after he changed his mind as if it were proof of something or other.
 
Paddy_Walker said:
no, you don’t understand me. tyrion asked God for the number before he changed his mind, not for the number after tyrion changed his mind. and tyrion shows us the number after he changed his mind as if it were proof of something or other.
Click to expand...
No, Tyrion asked for the result of his future dice throw, look its right here

"Can God predict and reveal the result (of the dice throw)? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? "

His question is not “how many dice would I throw if I didn’t ask this question” it is. “What will the result of the dice throw be when I do throw them”.

THAT is the question that God can’t answer. Sure, Tyrion could ask the question you have posed above, but that is a DIFFERENT question. Hence why it doesn’t show what Tyrions question shows.

I’m not sure why you keep insisting that Tyrion has to ask a different question?
 
Nope, nope, nope !
And that is the predictable response, it always has been, it always will be. Surprise, Surprise! 😃
 
aemcpa said:
The source of the consternation is the assumption that if God cannot demonstrate His omniscience, then it is impossible for us to know whether He is omniscient, as if direct observation is the only way to know whether something is certainly true.
Click to expand...
I haven’t seen that assumption anywhere other than in your post above.

People can believe that God is omniscient. I don’t see that threatened anywhere by Tyrions logic. Indeed I don’t actually see anywhere you can go from the point Tyrion reached. But that doesn’t change it’s validity in as far as it goes.
 
CandideWest said:
I haven’t seen that assumption anywhere other than in your post above.

People can believe that God is omniscient. I don’t see that threatened anywhere by Tyrions logic. Indeed I don’t actually see anywhere you can go from the point Tyrion reached. But that doesn’t change it’s validity in as far as it goes.
Click to expand...
You are now the one making logical leaps beyond what was said. I didn’t say that the OP made that leap; he may be or he may not be. I am saying that that is the unspoken assumption that people are attributing to him and then attempting to refute.
 
aemcpa said:
You are now the one making logical leaps beyond what was said. I didn’t say that the OP made that leap; he may be or he may not be. I am saying that that is the unspoken assumption that people are attributing to him and then attempting to refute.
Click to expand...
Ah ok, so you are saying that the Catholics writing on this thread are causing themselves consternation by adding (but not stating that they are adding) an incorrect assumption to the argument Tyrion has presented?
 
CandideWest said:
No, Tyrion asked for the result of his future dice throw, look its right here

"Can God predict and reveal the result (of the dice throw)? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? "

His question is not “how many dice would I throw if I didn’t ask this question” it is. “What will the result of the dice throw be when I do throw them”.

THAT is the question that God can’t answer. Sure, Tyrion could ask the question you have posed above, but that is a DIFFERENT question. Hence why it doesn’t show what Tyrions question shows.

I’m not sure why you keep insisting that Tyrion has to ask a different question?
Click to expand...
i don’t think i’m insisting anything. tyrion asked for the prediction. he got it. then tyrion changed the question after Gods prediction by adding, ‘now i’m going to choose the opposite of what you predicted’ in effect. tyrion did not tell God that tyrion wanted a prediction for after the point where tyrion changed his mind. tyrion just asked for a prediction for after the point when the dice were thrown. i think God acted in good faith by giving his prediction as asked by tyrion. if only tyrion had asked God to predict the numbers from after the point where tyrion had finished changing his mind then tyrion would see Gods prediction come true.
 
CandideWest said:
Ah ok, so you are saying that the Catholics writing on this thread are causing themselves consternation by adding (but not stating that they are adding) an incorrect assumption to the argument Tyrion has presented?
Click to expand...
That is what I am saying, yes.
 
Paddy_Walker said:
i don’t think i’m insisting anything. tyrion asked for the prediction. he got it. then tyrion changed the question after Gods prediction by adding, ‘now i’m going to choose the opposite of what you predicted’ in effect. tyrion did not tell God that tyrion wanted a prediction for after the point where tyrion changed his mind. tyrion just asked for a prediction for after the point when the dice were thrown. i think God acted in good faith by giving his prediction as asked by tyrion. if only tyrion had asked God to predict the numbers from after the point where tyrion had finished changing his mind then tyrion would see Gods prediction come true.
Click to expand...
Sure, but again, that would be a DIFFERENT thought experiment.

Once again, the point of this is that given our free will God is not able to correctly answer the question Tyrion posed. Therefore God cannot demonstrate his omniscience.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top