Double trouble!

[Joe_5859]

I’m surprised this thread is still going. I thought by now you guys would have moved on do discussing “Can God create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it?”

 

[Gricken]

I’m surprised this thread is still going. I thought by now you guys would have moved on do discussing “Can God create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it?”

Tyrion likes to think he’s smarter than God. If past threads are any indication, it won’t stop til he ends up blocking everyone who argues with him.

 

[CandideWest]

I’d like you to try. Thanks!

Sure, I’ll do my best.

1. As long as we can pose a question that God cannot correctly answer it is not possible for God to demonstrate his omniscience.
2. God can be asked to provide a prediction (which we will call “A”) of the outcome of a free will decision (which we will call x). So God’s prediction (A) is correct if outcome x = A.
3. However, the result of the decision point in this case is contingent upon prediction A such that for any value of A the outcome x is contrary to A. So outcome x = notA.
4. So x = A cannot be achieved.
5. Therefore we can always pose questions which God cannot answer correctly.
6. Hence God cannot demonstrate his omniscience as per 1.

The only alternative is if point 3 is not possible – so if following Gods prediction there is NO CHOICE in the outcome of the decision. However this would mean that the individual “choosing” at the decision point has no free will in this decision. This is contrary to one of the stated attributes of God that he does not interfere with individual free will.

 

[CandideWest]

You are correct. However, there is a different point to this whole problem. That is why I chose the title “double trouble”.

God is supposed to be also “omnipotent” - where omnipotence means that God can do anything that is not a logical contradiction. And there is nothing logically problematic about predicting a future action - so God should be able to do that. But - as the problem shows - God cannot do a simple prediction, since it would allow us to invalidate that prediction. As such it is not only God’s omniscience is problematic, but also his omnipotence.

Ahh, I fear that here we disagree.

Afterall your logic has demonstrated that in this particular case it is logically impossible for God (although possible for someone else) to correctly answer the question. Hence his omniscience does not entail the ability to answer the question.

So I believe the logic in the above is defeated by your previous argument.

 

[CandideWest]

why would God predict that tyrion was going to throw two sixes if tyrion was not going to throw the dice?

it doesn’t matter what prediction God makes. Tyrion’s subsquent choice always ensures that whatever prediction God makes does NOT come to pass.

This is exactly why God cannot answer the question. Hence why he cannot demonstrate his omniscience. That’s the point of the whole argument.

 

[DannyGR]

If God knows everything (including which hand you roll the dice with) he knows that because he is outside of time; he knows what you will choose. It would be a paradox which cannot happen for you to use the hand he said you would not use, since he knows what hand you are going to use based off a choice, which in God’s time, you have allready made. I think that makes sense

 

[CandideWest]

If God knows everything (including which hand you roll the dice with) he knows that because he is outside of time; he knows what you will choose. It would be a paradox which cannot happen for you to use the hand he said you would not use, since he knows what hand you are going to use based off a choice, which in God’s time, you have allready made. I think that makes sense

Danny, you’re right, but that doesn’t mean that he can tell you what hand you are going to use. In the example Tyrion gave in the OP the outcome is dependent on the prediction and will always be counter to it. so God cannot answer because whichever answer he provides will be wrong and God will know that it will be wrong before he provides it. Thus his only option is not to provide the answer at all.

 

[aemcpa]

If God knows everything (including which hand you roll the dice with) he knows that because he is outside of time; he knows what you will choose. It would be a paradox which cannot happen for you to use the hand he said you would not use, since he knows what hand you are going to use based off a choice, which in God’s time, you have allready made. I think that makes sense

Hence the logical contradiction in the thought experiment, and hence the correct conclusion that God’s omniscience cannot be demonstrated to a finite being.

 

[Tyrion]

Afterall your logic has demonstrated that in this particular case it is logically impossible for God (although possible for someone else) to correctly answer the question. Hence his omniscience does not entail the ability to answer the question.

Actually, it is a tad more complicated. The prediction and its revelation are not inherently problematic. The person who asks the question may very well take pains to follow the prediction - for whatever reason.

So - in and by itself - the prediction does not entail a logical problem. As such God (or anyone else) can make a prediction and reveal it - and everything is honkey-dorey.

The problem only happens if a skeptic wishes to throw the monkey-wrech into the spokes. And it is always fun.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

it doesn’t matter what prediction God makes. Tyrion’s subsquent choice always ensures that whatever prediction God makes does NOT come to pass.

This is exactly why God cannot answer the question. Hence why he cannot demonstrate his omniscience. That’s the point of the whole argument.

you are ignoring the fact that being omniscient means that God sees tyrions future. his future after tyrion changed his mind as well as his future before he changed his mind. since tyrion requested God to tell him his future before he, tyrion, changed his mind then that was what God told tyrion. if tyrion had told God that he was going to change his mind after he heard God’s prediction and wanted to know the end consequence then of that amended question the God would have told tyrion the final answer to his future including the amended new part of the question which tyrion left out and did not ask God to consider originally.

 

[CandideWest]

Actually, it is a tad more complicated. The prediction and its revelation are not inherently problematic. The person who asks the question may very well take pains to follow the prediction - for whatever reason.

So - in and by itself - the prediction does not entail a logical problem. As such God (or anyone else) can make a prediction and reveal it - and everything is honkey-dorey.

The problem only happens if a skeptic wishes to throw the monkey-wrech into the spokes. And it is always fun.

Sure, but under the specific situation you stated (where a skeptic decides to throw a spanner in the works (i’m British ) ). Then (as you demonstrated) it is logically impossible for God to correctly answer the question. Therefore his inability to answer the question doesn’t challenge his omnipotence.

If the person asking the question is not one of those troubling skeptics, but is happy to choose to comply with the prediction then your previously provided logic doesn’t apply. So God can and presumably will simply answer the question, so there is still no challenge to his omnipotence.

 

[aemcpa]

you are ignoring the fact that being omniscient means that God sees tyrions future. his future after tyrion changed his mind as well as his future before he changed his mind. since tyrion requested God to tell him his future before he, tyrion, changed his mind then that was what God told tyrion. if tyrion had told God that he was going to change his mind after he heard God’s prediction and wanted to know the end consequence then of that amended question the God would have told tyrion the final answer to his future including the amended new part of the question which tyrion left out and did not ask God to consider originally.

Tyrion is going to intentionally start a Mexican standoff, so the only way this ends is God lays out every move of Black (Tyrion) and every move of White (God) until Tyrion eventually dies without ever having rolled the dice, and Tyrion will finally know that God is truly omniscient as his soul is cast into the outer darkness.

 

[CandideWest]

you are ignoring the fact that being omniscient means that God sees tyrions future. his future after tyrion changed his mind as well as his future before he changed his mind. since tyrion requested God to tell him his future before he, tyrion, changed his mind then that was what God told tyrion. if tyrion had told God that he was going to change his mind after he heard God’s prediction and wanted to know the end consequence then of that amended question the God would have told tyrion the final answer to his future including the amended new part of the question which tyrion left out and did not ask God to consider originally.

But that would mean that God gave a different prediction and therefore Tyrion would subsequently do something different again. Again, this is the point - you reach an infinite regress where God would have to say

“my prediction is that you will roll one die which means you will choose to roll two die, so my prediction is that you will roll two die, which means that you will choose to roll one die, so my prediction is that you will roll one die which means you will choose to roll two die, so my prediction is… ad infinitum”.

So it is NOT POSSIBLE for God to provide a correct answer. However the question is valid in itself and can be answered (correctly) by anyone other than the being who’s prediction the act of choice is dependent upon (in this case God).

Again clearly an omniscient god would necessarily know all this in advance and therefore be aware that he could not answer the problem correctly. Therefore he would (presumably) simply correctly identify that while he knows the correct answer he couldn’t state what it is.

 

[Aloysium]

Tyrion is going to intentionally start a Mexican standoff, so the only way this ends is God lays out every move of Black (Tyrion) and every move of White (God) until Tyrion eventually dies without ever having rolled the dice, and Tyrion will finally know that God is truly omniscient as his soul is cast into the outer darkness.

The Mexican standoff is in Tyrion’s own mind (Sorry dude, but you are on a Catholic site so you are going to get this sort of feed back).
The trouble is, playing these mental games can prevent one from pursuing the Truth.
I do believe God understands and we are all judged based on what we have been given; so his fate is not necessarily perdition, any more than mine.

 

[CandideWest]

Tyrion is going to intentionally start a Mexican standoff, so the only way this ends is God lays out every move of Black (Tyrion) and every move of White (God) until Tyrion eventually dies without ever having rolled the dice, and Tyrion will finally know that God is truly omniscient as his soul is cast into the outer darkness.

Or God could correctly state that it is logically impossible for him to provide a correct prediction of Tyrion’s choice.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

But that would mean that God gave a different prediction and therefore Tyrion would subsequently do something different again. Again, this is the point - you reach an infinite regress where God would have to say

“my prediction is that you will roll one die which means you will choose to roll two die, so my prediction is that you will roll two die, which means that you will choose to roll one die, so my prediction is that you will roll one die which means you will choose to roll two die, so my prediction is… ad infinitum”.

So it is NOT POSSIBLE for God to provide a correct answer. However the question is valid in itself and can be answered (correctly) by anyone other than the being who’s prediction the act of choice is dependent upon (in this case God).

Again clearly an omniscient god would necessarily know all this in advance and therefore be aware that he could not answer the problem correctly. Therefore he would (presumably) simply correctly identify that while he knows the correct answer he couldn’t state what it is.

not at all. the problem tyrion is having is that he is asking God a question whilst at the same time saying to himself sotto voce, and not to God, that he will then choose the opposite.
so tyrions question to God is absolute and God will not tinker with tyrions request. God gives tyrion the correct prediction for that absolute question. He tells tyrion how the dice will fall without considering the fact that tyrion will change his mind.
tyrion did not tell God to consider in that absolute question that tyrion was then going to change his mind and to consider that fact also in the question. if tyrion had said that tyrion knows that God would once again have predicted correctly the answer and this time it would be the same as tyrions answer.

 

[CandideWest]

not at all. the problem tyrion is having is that he is asking God a question whilst at the same time saying to himself sotto voce, and not to God, that he will then choose the opposite.

That doesn’t matter, clearly an omniscient god would necessarily know that was Tyrions intent. That is why he would know that he could not provide the correct answer.

so tyrions question to God is absolute and God will not tinker with tyrions request.

Correct, but Tyrion’s response is CONTINGENT on God’s prediction. So whatever prediction God makes Tyrion will CHOOSE something else. I’m not sure what you are struggling with here.

God gives tyrion the correct prediction for that absolute question.

Which Tyrion hears and CHOOSES NOT TO DO. Hence making God’s prediction wrong.

tyrion did not tell God to consider in that absolute question that tyrion was then going to change his mind and to consider that fact also in the question. if tyrion had said that tyrion knows that God would once again have predicted correctly the answer and this time it would be the same as tyrions answer.

No. Because an omniscient God must by definition have known Tyrions intention whether or not he voiced it. Thus he would be aware that providing a correct answer is impossible.

Again there simply is no correct answer that God can provide as long as Tyrion sticks to his intent, so the inability of God to perform is not a problem for him, it’s just another case of God not being able to perform a logical impossibility.

We can keep going around and around this loop ad infinitum which is actually a neat demonstration of why it is logically impossible. but it seems somewhat futile. The key is the (oft repeated) statement that the correct answer is contingent upon and inverse to the prediction. So by definition no prediction provided (by God) can be correct.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

That doesn’t matter, clearly an omniscient god would necessarily know that was Tyrions intent. That is why he would know that he could not provide the correct answer.

Correct, but Tyrion’s response is CONTINGENT on God’s prediction. So whatever prediction God makes Tyrion will CHOOSE something else. I’m not sure what you are struggling with here.

Which Tyrion hears and CHOOSES NOT TO DO. Hence making God’s prediction wrong.

No. Because an omniscient God must by definition have known Tyrions intention whether or not he voiced it. Thus he would be aware that providing a correct answer is impossible.

Again there simply is no correct answer that God can provide as long as Tyrion sticks to his intent, so the inability of God to perform is not a problem for him, it’s just another case of God not being able to perform a logical impossibility.

We can keep going around and around this loop ad infinitum which is actually a neat demonstration of why it is logically impossible. but it seems somewhat futile. The key is the (oft repeated) statement that the correct answer is contingent upon and inverse to the prediction. So by definition no prediction provided (by God) can be correct.

no, you’re not getting it at all. God knows what tyrion is doing, naturally. but it is tyrion’s question God is answering. just the amount of question tyrion gives to God. because that is all tyrion wants. make a prediction tyrion says, and then i will change the question he says to himself. but God knows all, and tyrion did not ask God to consider anything else.
so God says, fine tyrion, here is your answer but your throw of the dice will now be incorrect.
so Gods prediction is correct but not what tyrion expected.

 

[aemcpa]

no, you’re not getting it at all. God knows what tyrion is doing, naturally. but it is tyrion’s question God is answering. just the amount of question tyrion gives to God. because that is all tyrion wants. make a prediction tyrion says, and then i will change the question he says to himself. but God knows all, and tyrion did not ask God to consider anything else.
so God says, fine tyrion, here is your answer but your throw of the dice will now be incorrect.
so Gods prediction is correct but not what tyrion expected.

How has God demonstrated His omniscience in your solution? You are assuming His omniscience but you are not explaining how your solution allows Him to demonstrate it to Tyrion.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

heres tyrions question in a nutshell;

if someone keeps changing their mind eternally then what have they finally decided on?

the answer is not that you cannot correctly answer the question of what they have finally decided on, because the answer or rather the question is, what is the answer at some specific point in eternity [the throwing of the dice] and the correct answer to that question is the answer at that particular point in eternity.