Double trouble!

[aemcpa]

No. You have no choice.
You MUST say the opposite.

No, he doesn’t. He could allow you to be correct.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

No, read it again. I get to choose the result. And since the result is what God has been asked to predict, …

and the result I choose is contingent upon and inverse to Gods prediction…

It is logically impossible for him to provide a correct answer.

If you are still struggling with this one I’ll try something slightly different.

Please give me the correct answer to the following question.

What answer will never be given for this question?

Again you cannot answer the question correctly because any answer you give must (by definition) be the wrong answer. And yet there are an infinite number of correct answers to the question.

no. an incorrect answer is an answer you give. therefore the correct answer is the answer you don’t give. therefore i can answer it correctly by not answering it.

 

[CandideWest]

No. You have no choice.
You MUST say the opposite.

It makes no difference either way in truth whether I must or I simply decide to. The point is the one made by Tyrion in the OP - we can always ask valid questions of God which he is unable to answer. This God is unable to demonstrate his omniscience to a sceptical audience.

As I said ages ago, it’s rather moot as the argument can’t be taken any further than that. But nonetheless it’s valid as far as it goes.

 

[CandideWest]

no. an incorrect answer is an answer you give. therefore the correct answer is the answer you don’t give. therefore i can answer it correctly by not answering it.

But then you haven’t given an answer at all, so you have still not given a correct answer to the question.

You cannot, because it is logically impossible, just like winning the coin flipping game, just like God correctly predicting the result of Tyrions dice roll when it was contingent upon and different too whatever prediction God offers.

I’m fine with that by the way, that is what I have repeatedly stated out be Gods response to such problems. - He wouldn’t answer the question because any answer he provides would be wrong.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

But then you haven’t given an answer at all, so you have still not given a correct answer to the question.

You cannot, because it is logically impossible, just like winning the coin flipping game, just like God correctly predicting the result of Tyrions dice roll when it was contingent upon and different too whatever prediction God offers.

I’m fine with that by the way, that is what I have repeatedly stated out be Gods response to such problems. - He wouldn’t answer the question because any answer he provides would be wrong.

but not answering is correct. not incorrect.

 

[CandideWest]

but not answering is correct. not incorrect.

But u asked you to give a correct answer. Not giving any answer is still failing to give a correct answer.

Just to be clear, it’s ok to not be able to give a correct answer. Again. the question has been rigged to ensure that you cannot gibe a correct answer.

That is the point.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

But u asked you to give a correct answer. Not giving any answer is still failing to give a correct answer.

Just to be clear, it’s ok to not be able to give a correct answer. Again. the question has been rigged to ensure that you cannot gibe a correct answer.

That is the point.

but the correct answer is not to give an incorrect answer and not giving an answer is correct not incorrect.

 

[CandideWest]

but the correct answer is not to give an incorrect answer and not giving an answer is correct not incorrect.

But not giving any answer at all means not giving a CORRECT answer, and that is what you were asked to do.

Again, the whole point of this is that you cannot give a correct answer to the question. That is the position Tyrions thought experiment puts God info as well.

See?

 

[Paddy_Walker]

But not giving any answer at all means not giving a CORRECT answer, and that is what you were asked to do.

Again, the whole point of this is that you cannot give a correct answer to the question. That is the position Tyrions thought experiment puts God info as well.

See?

but the only incorrect answers are the ones he gives. true?

what about tyrion just asking his question.

tyrion says to God, demonstrate your omniscience to me and whatever you do to demonstrate it i will exercise my freewill to disbelieve it. therefore you cannot demonstrate your omniscience to me, a skeptic.

is that an accurate representation of tyrions question?

 

[CandideWest]

but the only incorrect answers are the ones he gives. true?

what about tyrion just asking his question.

tyrion says to God, demonstrate your omniscience to me and whatever you do to demonstrate it i will exercise my freewill to disbelieve it. therefore you cannot demonstrate your omniscience to me, a skeptic.

is that an accurate representation of tyrions question?

Not really, that would require that belief be a choice, which in a great many cases it is not. Nonetheless you are on the right track. Essentially Tyrion has shown that a sceptic can make it logically impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Incorrect.

We know that answer is incorrect because you just gave it. A correct answer is one which is never given.

Would you like to have another go at giving a correct answer?

Come on CandideWest. You abandoned your coin flippancy when presented with the reality that it actually compels you to choose the opposite of whatever coin flip I guess thus making your selection mandatory. You can’t decide to “select” tails if I pick heads. You MUST pick tails.

So now youve gone for the exact same pointless example using Q&A instead of coin tosses.

Read carefully everybody.

“A correct answer is one which is never given.”

:whacky:

In other words there is no correct answer.
Not answering = answering = not answering.

Come on CandideWest. We deserve a little bit of coherence. Please dont insult us with gibberish.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Originally Posted by Lion IRC

No. You have no choice.
You MUST say the opposite.

No, he doesn’t. He could allow you to be correct.

No. He would be acknowledging that I AM CORRECT!
My guess turned out right.

ETA - And that whole…tell me in advance what you guess the coin toss will be so I will know what result to force thingy was lame as. :tsktsk:

 

[CandideWest]

Come on CandideWest. You abandoned your coin flippancy when presented with the reality that it actually compels you to choose the opposite of whatever coin flip I guess thus making your selection mandatory. You can’t decide to “select” tails if I pick heads. You MUST pick tails.

??? No. I abandoned nothing. I simply told you (correctly) that it doesn’t matter whether I MUST make the answer the opposite of whatever prediction you give or I simply CHOOSE to on every occasion. The result is the same - that it is logically impossible for you to give a correct prediction.

So now youve gone for the exact same pointless example using Q&A instead of coin tosses.

Yes, because Paddy seems to be struggling with it. I’m not sure why, it seems perfectly obvious to me that there are questions which are logically impossible to be answered correctly. But he seems to keep arguing that this is not so. So I keep providing new examples of completely rigged situations in the hope that he’s going to realise “ahh yes, that question CANNOT be answered correctly”.

At which point our conversation will be successfully concluded.

Read carefully everybody.

“A correct answer is one which is never given.”

:whacky:

In other words there is no correct answer.
Not answering = answering = not answering.

Not quite. There are an infinite number of correct answers available, but each answer which anyone gives to the question MUST BE WRONG. Once again, this is a rigged game. An omniscient being would of course KNOW all the correct answers to the question, however he would not be able to GIVE any of the answers as to do so would make them incorrect.

As I have said repeatedly, this is just about showing that in a sufficiently rigged situation, even omniscience doesn’t allow a player to do what is asked of them.

Is this massively important? No not really. All it shows is that it is logically impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience to a sceptical audience. As per the OP. That is all.

Come on CandideWest. We deserve a little bit of coherence. Please dont insult us with gibberish.

Everything I’ve written on here has been entirely coherent. The problem is that most of my interlocutors don’t seem to be bothering to read what I write. Several of you seem to be trying to show that situations which are from the outset deliberately rigged to be impossible to answer are in fact possible to answer, then complaining when it turns out they are not.

Well what do you expect? I create rules of a game and state specifically that the game is rigged so that even an omniscient being CANNOT WIN. You then play the game and complain that you CANNOT WIN…

 

[CandideWest]

Originally Posted by Lion IRC

No. He would be acknowledging that I AM CORRECT!
My guess turned out right.

ETA - And that whole…tell me in advance what you guess the coin toss will be so I will know what result to force thingy was lame as. :tsktsk:

Lame? Why? It demonstrated that it is possible for a sceptic to ask questions of an omniscient God which he is unable to answer. Thus the OP statement that it is impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscient to a sceptical audience is correct.

That’s what it set out to so, and that’s what it did. Nothing “lame” about a simple thought experiment which shows exactly what it was intended to.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Not really, that would require that belief be a choice, which in a great many cases it is not. Nonetheless you are on the right track. Essentially Tyrion has shown that a sceptic can make it logically impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience.

but lets say God did what tyrion asked and demonstrated his omniscience. and as usual tryion chooses not to believe it.

 

[CandideWest]

but lets say God did what tyrion asked and demonstrated his omniscience. and as usual tryion chooses not to believe it.

But we can’t just “say” that he did because its impossible. We might as well “just say” that God created a rock so heavy that he couldn’t lift it.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

But we can’t just “say” that he did because its impossible. We might as well “just say” that God created a rock so heavy that he couldn’t lift it.

why can’t we say that God demonstrated his omniscience to tyrion?

God demonstrated his omniscience to pharaoh.

Go to him in the morning, behold he will go out to the waters: and thou shalt stand to meet him on the bank of the river: and thou shalt take in thy hand the rod that was turned into a serpent. 16And thou shalt say to him: The Lord God of the Hebrews sent me to thee saying: Let my people go to sacrifice to me in the desert: and hitherto thou wouldst not hear. 17Thus therefore saith the Lord: In this thou shalt know that I am the Lord: behold I will strike with the rods that is in my hand, the water of the river, and it shall be turned into blood. 18And the fishes that are in the river shall die, and the waters shall be corrupted, and the Egyptians shall be afflicted when they drink the water of the river. 19The Lord also said to Moses: Say to Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch forth thy hand upon the waters of Egypt, and upon their rivers, and streams and pools, and all the ponds of waters, that they may be turned into blood: and let blood be in all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood and of stone.

20And Moses and Aaron did as the Lord had commanded: and lifting up the rod he struck the water of the river before Pharao and his servants: and it was turned into blood. 21And the fishes that were in the river died: and the river corrupted, and the Egyptians could not drink the water of the river, and there was blood in all the land of Egypt.

 

[CandideWest]

why can’t we say that God demonstrated his omniscience to tyrion?
.

Because it is not possible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. Remember? We just went through this at length.

Tyrion showed that it is always possible to ask God a perfectly valid question which he cannot answer correctly. Omniscience entails that God knows the answer to every valid question, demonstrating omniscience would therefore (as a minimum) require that God correctly answer any and all valid questions that are asked of him. He cannot do this, so he cannot demonstrate his omniscience.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Because it is not possible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. Remember? We just went through this at length.

Tyrion showed that it is always possible to ask God a perfectly valid question which he cannot answer correctly. Omniscience entails that God knows the answer to every valid question, demonstrating omniscience would therefore (as a minimum) require that God correctly answer any and all valid questions that are asked of him. He cannot do this, so he cannot demonstrate his omniscience.

well if it isn’t a valid question then it cannot be answered incorrectly.

 

[CandideWest]

well if it isn’t a valid question then it cannot be answered incorrectly.

But the questions ARE valid, they are just impossible for God to answer correctly.