No, you have misunderstood, Tyrions act of choice is contingent on Gods prediction. So there is no choice until God has made his prediction.The answer is nothing
because that is what Tyrion has chosen
Tyrion hearing nothing, continues to not respond by choosing nothing
the answer is correct and true
Tyrion does nothing
and hears back that he will do nothing
he does get an answer
God does respond
Exactly, well done on coming up with another example.“Is the answer to this question, ‘No’?”
Tyrion’s action is contingent on God’s action which is contingent on Tyrion’sNo, you have misunderstood, Tyrions act of choice is contingent on Gods prediction. So there is no choice until God has made his prediction.
You are correct though that God will not answer the question, the reason for this is that it is logically impossible for him to do so.
:clapping:Tyrion’s action is contingent on God’s action which is contingent on Tyrion’s
Hey dude, what do you want to do?
I don’t know, what ever you want; what do you want to do?
I don’t know whatever you want?
What happens? They do what the other wants - nothing.
Maybe it’s a question of semantics.
If I ask someone out and they do not respond, I take it as a no.
God says nothing as His honest reply,
which He frequently does.
And Tyrion, spends his life waiting for an answer.
God gives His answer - silence.
It is not impossible for Him to answer - nothing is the answer.
Because Tyrion will never act.
Er, so if you ask someone “would you mind if I take your car” and they don’t respond you assume that means their response is “no” and so you take their car?Tyrion’s action is contingent on God’s action which is contingent on Tyrion’s
Hey dude, what do you want to do?
I don’t know, what ever you want; what do you want to do?
I don’t know whatever you want?
What happens? They do what the other wants - nothing.
Maybe it’s a question of semantics.
If I ask someone out and they do not respond, I take it as a no.
God says nothing as His honest reply,
which He frequently does.
And Tyrion, spends his life waiting for an answer.
God gives His answer - silence.
It is not impossible for Him to answer - nothing is the answer.
Because Tyrion will never act.
The thought experiment that I propose, in which God discloses his prediction to a third party, is simpler and truer to Tyrion’s intention (to see if God can prove his omniscience).Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says.
It’s worse than that, it’s a deliberately and openly rigged system to make it logically impossible for God to provide the correct answer.Can you explain why God must disclose his prediction to Tyrion before Tyrion acts? The question this thread is asking is whether or not God can prove his omniscience, ie. whether God is omnipotent. I argue that the requirement that God’s prediction be known to Tyrion is poor experimental design. Here is what Tyrion is testing:
No, that wouldn’t work at all as Tyrion can always say that any third parties or writing on bits of paper could be tricks. And of course he is right, God (if he is omnipotent), has no limit to the elaborate tricks that he could use to imitate omniscience if he wanted. Thus Tyrions refusal to accept anything other than the prediction being given to him directly.The thought experiment that I propose, in which God discloses his prediction to a third party, is simpler and truer to Tyrion’s intention (to see if God can prove his omniscience).
Actually Tyrions argument fails specifically because the first part succeeds. By which I mean that the first part of the argument shows that it’s logically impossible for God to answer correctly. The second part depends on it being possible. (because omnipotence doesn’t entail the ability to do impossible things).Tyrion is trying to disprove God’s omnipotence by contradiction. What Tyrion goes on to propose, however, takes as an assumption the “fact” that Tyrion can alter reality (as expressed through a statement made by an omniscient God). Tyrion’s thought experiment is constructed such that God is not omnipotent to begin with. This is not how proof by contradiction works: you must assume the opposite of what you are trying to prove and demonstrate that one necessarily arrives upon a contradiction.
Of course he can. He can simply do what most of us would do in this circumstance - decline to answer on the basis that whatever answer he have would be wrong.The game is only winnable by the one who has the free will. In this hypothetical game God’s free will is removed. He must make a prediction and announce it. He must allow his opponent to select another option. Therefore, God is not allowed to make an accurate prediction every time because this hypothetical God has no options and cannot exercise simple common sense.
I assume you haven’t read through the thread. We have already covered this ground, and several people proposed different third-party solutions. Tyrion said that he doesn’t want a third party introduced into his hypothetical.Can you explain why God must disclose his prediction to Tyrion before Tyrion acts? The question this thread is asking is whether or not God can prove his omniscience, ie. whether God is omnipotent. I argue that the requirement that God’s prediction be known to Tyrion is poor experimental design. Here is what Tyrion is testing:
The thought experiment that I propose, in which God discloses his prediction to a third party, is simpler and truer to Tyrion’s intention (to see if God can prove his omniscience).
Tyrion is trying to disprove God’s omnipotence by contradiction. What Tyrion goes on to propose, however, takes as an assumption the “fact” that Tyrion can alter reality (as expressed through a statement made by an omniscient God). Tyrion’s thought experiment is constructed such that God is not omnipotent to begin with. This is not how proof by contradiction works: you must assume the opposite of what you are trying to prove and demonstrate that one necessarily arrives upon a contradiction.
Ty wants an answer “a” or “b” in order to try and trick God.. . . In order for God to demonstrate his omniscience he must actually provide the correct answer to each question asked of him. Not providing any answer means (by definition) not providing a correct answer . . .
That’s why I said you can’t realistically put him into that situation. You can only put a hypothetical God into a situation like this. The only thing Tyion has done is disprove a hypothetical God’s omniscience.Of course he can. He can simply do what most of us would do in this circumstance - decline to answer on the basis that whatever answer he have would be wrong.
Which makes Tyions point. God must either decline to answer or give an incorrect answer. Neither option demonstrates his omniscience.
We established this almost 200 posts ago.Even IF we allow that Tyrion’s able to find this question God can’t answer. It doesn’t help his point, as it only shows that his question was a logical paradox. So while it may be “a question God can’t answer” it falls short of proving that God’s traits are in contridiction.
Tyrion also has cut directly to his own victory by bypassing all of God’s power and ability and placed God into an inescapable situation to begin with. That’s just the sort of thing you can not do to a being who is all knowing and all powerful.Even IF we allow that Tyrion’s able to find this question God can’t answer. It doesn’t help his point, as it only shows that his question was a logical paradox. So while it may be “a question God can’t answer” it falls short of proving that God’s traits are in contridiction.
This requires the (unstated) assumption that the God of the experiment has a malevolent will. The God as posited would not have any need to change his prediction by way of a trick, by construction.No, that wouldn’t work at all as Tyrion can always say that any third parties or writing on bits of paper could be tricks. And of course he is right, God (if he is omnipotent), has no limit to the elaborate tricks that he could use to imitate omniscience if he wanted. Thus Tyrions refusal to accept anything other than the prediction being given to him directly.
I agree, this is a better way of stating it.Actually Tyrions argument fails specifically because the first part succeeds. By which I mean that the first part of the argument shows that it’s logically impossible for God to answer correctly. The second part depends on it being possible. (because omnipotence doesn’t entail the ability to do impossible things).
So the fact that God cannot answer the question doesn’t show a contradiction against omnipotence.
Exactly. Well said!The truth is, in real life if God were to predict that on the next day you will pick up three die with your left hand and throw them and you would see the numbers three, three, and three then that is what will happen whether you know about the prediction or not. I assure you that God would not need to interfere with your free will and neither will he need to interfere with the free will of any other agents. If God says it will come to pass then it is the future he has seen for real and you may not be able to fathom the reason why and you might swear by your own life that you will not do it, but do it you will, because for if God has seen it to be true, then it is fact…
But if God has to wait until after Tyrion has chosen a particular action then he cannot answer Tyrions question. Which was Tyrions original point. Again you seem to be in violent agreement.Ty wants an answer “a” or “b” in order to try and trick God.
Were God to answer, He would do so truthfully that the answer is “c” neither - this is how history will play itself out as Ty will never choose. When he asks God to show him the future, there is nothing.
God can only show Ty that He is omniscient once Ty makes his choice, in faith.
No, you have misunderstood. The ability of God to demonstrate his knowledge is the issue.I am belabouring the point because knowledge of God is the issue.
Why could Tyrion not ask the question of a real omniscient God? Are you saying that God restricts human free will to only asking him questions that he can answer?That’s why I said you can’t realistically put him into that situation. You can only put a hypothetical God into a situation like this. The only thing Tyion has done is disprove a hypothetical God’s omniscience.