Double trouble!

[CandideWest]

This requires the (unstated) assumption that the God of the experiment has a malevolent will. The God as posited would not have any need to change his prediction by way of a trick, by construction.

I don’t see any need for a malevolent will there, Tyrion just needs to admit the possibility that God would deceive him. Nothing more.

You are right that if we assume God to be omniscient then we also assume no need for God to deceive. But then we are assuming the characteristic. Not getting God to demonstrate it. Which again, was the original point.

I agree, this is a better way of stating it.

 

[aemcpa]

The truth is, in real life if God were to predict that on the next day you will pick up three die with your left hand and throw them and you would see the numbers three, three, and three then that is what will happen whether you know about the prediction or not. I assure you that God would not need to interfere with your free will and neither will he need to interfere with the free will of any other agents. If God says it will come to pass then it is the future he has seen for real and you may not be able to fathom the reason why and you might swear by your own life that you will not do it, but do it you will, because for if God has seen it to be true, then it is fact…

You’re missing the whole point. This isn’t about prediction - you can accept that God is omniscient and that he knows exactly what Tyrion is going to do. He will nonetheless not be able to demonstrate that omniscience to Tyrion or any other being with free will.

 

[Love4All]

But u asked you to give a correct answer. Not giving any answer is still failing to give a correct answer.

Just to be clear, it’s ok to not be able to give a correct answer. Again. the question has been rigged to ensure that you cannot gibe a correct answer.

That is the point.

Consider the infinite series,

0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1. . .

What is the final term?

A) 0.
B) 1.
C) 1/2.
D) Undefined.

If you can grasp the answer to this question, you can grasp the flaw in Tyrion’s logic.

For the record, Tyrion’s logic is,

1. I ask God, "Is the answer to THIS question, ‘No?’ "
2. If God answers, “No,” then the correct answer to the question is “Yes.”
3. If God answers, “Yes,” then the correct answer to the question is “No.”
4. Therefore God cannot answer the question correctly.
5. Therefore God cannot be both omniscient and omnipotent.

5 is a non-sequitur. The logic of a question with an undefined answer is that the answer is undefined. “Undefined” does not mean that there is potential knowledge that one, whether creaturely or divine, simply does not possess. “Undefined” means, rather, that there is no knowledge to be had. Now, omniscience means possessing all possible knowledge. But if a question actually has no correct answer, then an omniscient being wouldn’t know “the answer,” because there is no such thing as “the answer.” Married bachelors, round squares, the final term in the series given above, and the correct answer to Tyrion’s question the way he formed it, all fall into the same logical category. The technical term for such questions is “paradoxical.” Tyrion has presented a paradox, which is an artifact of binary logic, and all logic is by nature binary. Without the binary nature of logic, logic would be useless, because logic relies on the contrast between “is” and “is not.”

So the flaw in Tyrion’s logic is in the irrational leap from 4 to 5. 5 in fact does not follow from 4, because omniscience includes all knowledge, not all knowledge plus all non-knowledge. Non-knowledge is like darkness, or cold. Darkness is not a thing, it is simply the absence of light, which is a thing. Cold, similarly, is simply the absence of heat. Light and heat are entities; darkness and cold are not entities, they are the absence of entities. Non-knowledge is the absence of information. There is no information of the answer to the questions referenced above.

Conclusion: Tyrion is clever but not wise. There may still be a God who is both omniscient and omnipotent, without contradiction. Tyrion’s argument has failed to demonstrate Tyrion’s point.

If Tyrion is able to grasp my logic here, then his presenting of this argument may possibly bear some good fruit, namely this: it may bring Tyrion one incremental step closer to surrendering to the idea that God is God, after all, and thus one step closer to surrendering to God, which is the whole point of anything.

Tyrion won’t see this because he has me blocked because he fears my logic. But others may benefit.

/thread.

 

[aemcpa]

For the record, Tyrion’s logic is,

1. I ask God, "Is the answer to THIS question, ‘No?’ "
2. If God answers, “No,” then the correct answer to the question is “Yes.”
3. If God answers, “Yes,” then the correct answer to the question is “No.”
4. Therefore God cannot answer the question correctly.
5. Therefore God cannot be omniscient.

5 is a non-sequitur.

CandideWest has spent the last 150-200 posts telling YOU that.

 

[Gricken]

CandideWest has spent the last 150-200 posts telling YOU that.

Now I think we’re just waiting for OP’s response to that. At least I am:shrug:

 

[CandideWest]

Now I think we’re just waiting for OP’s response to that. At least I am:shrug:

I suspect you will be waiting a while. Most people writing on this forum simply cease responding once they realise that an argument they made was flawed. There are exceptions, and it i’s possible that Tyrion will be one of the exceptions to that rule, but I wouldn’t hold your breath assuming that to be the case if I were you.

 

[JamesATyler]

You’re missing the whole point. This isn’t about prediction - you can accept that God is omniscient and that he knows exactly what Tyrion is going to do. He will nonetheless not be able to demonstrate that omniscience to Tyrion or any other being with free will.

No, I’m not missing the point. God doesn’t predict a possible future. He states what exactly will happen in the future. If tells Tyrion that he will throw the die in a certain way at a certain time then that is what Tyrion has done in the future. Tyrion only thinks that he can change the future if he knows what the future is but that is not correct. For the future is what it is, including the the fact that Tyrion knows what the future is. That is to say, that events will happen in a certain way because Tyrion is told the future. Just as sure as Tyrion has thrown the die in the future, no matter what he knows, God can see his actual throw not a possible throw. Therefore by telling Tyrion what he actually has done in the future, he can demonstrate his omniscience.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Again, it would really help if you read my posts before replying to them. He CANNOT answer the question. He will know the correct answer to the question, but that isn’t the same as being able to answer it correctly.

so here is tyrions position;

tyrion asks God to demonstrate his omniscience to him and tyrion closes his eyes so he cannot see the demonstration.

your point is that God cannot demonstrate his omniscience to tyrion.

but was tyrions question that God could not demonatrate his omniscience or that he could not demonstrate his omniscience to tyrion?

in any event, being omniscient means that if God demonstrates his omniscience to tyrion then tyrion will see it. because God is omniscient. so, if God does not answer he is not incorrect. in fact, not answering is a demonstration of his omniscience, and the correct answer to a question which does not exist as a question but even as such still has a correct answer. Gods omniscience was demonstrated to tyrion and tyrion did not see it.

 

[CandideWest]

No, I’m not missing the point. God doesn’t predict a possible future. He states what exactly will happen in the future. If tells Tyrion that he will throw the die in a certain way at a certain time then that is what Tyrion has done in the future. Tyrion only thinks that he can change the future if he knows what the future is but that is not correct. For the future is what it is, including the the fact that Tyrion knows what the future is. That is to say, that events will happen in a certain way because Tyrion is told the future. Just as sure as Tyrion has thrown the die in the future, no matter what he knows, God can see his actual throw not a possible throw. Therefore by telling Tyrion what he actually has done in the future, he can demonstrate his omniscience.

In that case you are arguing that once God has made his prediction Tyrion has NO FREE WILL.

He simply CANNOT choose to do something other than what God predicted. Even if he’s asking a simple question like “will I choose A or B”. God says “you’re going to choose A” and Tyrion CANNOT choose B. he simply no longer has that option. Or to use many worlds approach, there is no world in which Tyrion chooses B.

 

[Love4All]

In that case you are arguing that once God has made his prediction Tyrion has NO FREE WILL.

He simply CANNOT choose to do something other than what God predicted. Even if he’s asking a simple question like “will I choose A or B”. God says “you’re going to choose A” and Tyrion CANNOT choose B. he simply no longer has that option. Or to use many worlds approach, there is no world in which Tyrion chooses B.

Remember the scene at the end of the second Matrix movie? Where Neo is conversing with the Architect, and the Architect presents him with a choice: either enter the door to the Source and save the whole human race, fulfilling his function as the One, or, re-enter the Matrix to save his girl, who is definitely going to die anyway. The Architect observes the physiological effect of the decision-making process in Neo, and knows that Neo is going to choose to save Trinity.

Your error in your above paragraph conflates “cannot” with “will not.” When God predicts a free will decision of a human creature, He is reporting what the human will do, as opposed to what he must do. Choice and necessity are opposite, here. What we do of necessity, we must do. What we do of choice, we will do.

So to correct your error:

He simply WILL NOT choose to do something other than what God predicted. Even if he’s asking a simple question like “will I choose A or B”. God says “you’re going to choose A” and Tyrion WILL NOT choose B. He has that option, but he does not choose it. Or to use many worlds approach, there are worlds in which Tyrion chooses B, but not this world.

(In the worlds where Tyrion chooses B, God’s prediction is suitably different. There are no possible worlds where God gets it wrong, but obviously, there are possible worlds where Tyrion chooses differently, and God’s omniscience does not negate this.)

 

[Love4All]

I suspect you will be waiting a while. Most people writing on this forum simply cease responding once they realise that an argument they made was flawed. There are exceptions, and it i’s possible that Tyrion will be one of the exceptions to that rule, but I wouldn’t hold your breath assuming that to be the case if I were you.

Tyrion actually blocks those who show his arguments flawed. Yeah, really.

 

[JamesATyler]

In that case you are arguing that once God has made his prediction Tyrion has NO FREE WILL.

He simply CANNOT choose to do something other than what God predicted. Even if he’s asking a simple question like “will I choose A or B”. God says “you’re going to choose A” and Tyrion CANNOT choose B. he simply no longer has that option. Or to use many worlds approach, there is no world in which Tyrion chooses B.

Not exactly. I’m saying that the future God sees in the one in which he already told Tyrion what he would do. Tyrion can do what ever he likes but he does eventually throw the die after being told. That’s the future God sees. It might seem like Tyrion has no free will but he does. It doesn’t matter how complex or simple the event might be. My point is, that God sees the actual future including the effect of his own actions.

 

[Gricken]

Tyrion actually blocks those who show his arguments flawed. Yeah, really.

Yup. He’s openly admitted it before. It also makes his earlier assertion that he once asked a question that people failed to answer into question. He may have very well just blocked others from responding.

 

[Love4All]

Yup. He’s openly admitted it before. It also makes his earlier assertion that he once asked a question that people failed to answer into question. He may have very well just blocked others from responding.

Yeah, I take it as a high compliment that he has me blocked.

Personally, I could never live with such cowardice in myself, but, such are the minions of the evil one!

 

[JamesATyler]

Not exactly. I’m saying that the future God sees in the one in which he already told Tyrion what he would do. Tyrion can do what ever he likes but he does eventually throw the die after being told. That’s the future God sees. It might seem like Tyrion has no free will but he does. It doesn’t matter how complex or simple the event might be. My point is, that God sees the actual future including the effect of his own actions.

I just want to add that I’m not asserting that everything in the future is written in stone. But the thought experiment is setup in such a way that God stated what the future is in Tyrion’s example. If God did in fact state the future, then that is “What was, What is, and what is to come.”

 

[Love4All]

I just want to add that I’m not asserting that everything in the future is written in stone. But the thought experiment is setup in such a way that God stated what the future is in Tyrion’s example. If God did in fact state the future, then that is “What was, What is, and what is to come.”

It’s not written in stone, nonetheless, it is what it is. God in fact knows everything, not just most things. The entire future in detail is known to God.

 

[zro_x]

Your words:
…

I take it that you acknoweldge the law of cause and effect and the idea that God sees all times at once, as he is eternal. Well, he not only sees all times, but he also sees all possibilities, and of course, God can change the course of history if he desires. He knows that if he does not part the red sea, the isrealites will be captured. Without God’s intervention the isrealites will be captured at the red sea. This does not mean that this future is locked in place, it means that the actual timeline needs to include the actions of God, as they can make a difference in the timeline.

Carry this over to Tyrion’s experiment. God knows that by acting, he can change the course of history. He sees the possible world in which he does not respond to Tyrion’s challenge, and the possible world in which he does. Without God’s intervention, Tyrion will choose A. But since God’s intervention can change the course of history, then if God does intervene and predicts A, then God has influenced history in such a way that Tyrion will choose B instead. The intervention causes Tyrion to choose the opposite of the prediction. We can not postulate that God’s prediction has no effect on the actual course of action that is taken, because that violates the law of cause and effect. let me revise my formal argument:

IF

1. an experimenter has choice A and B,
   2.God knows which the experimenter will pick,
   3.the experimenter can actually freely choose one of the options,
   4.The experimenter intends to choose the opposite option of whatever God predicts to him,
2. and the universe is such that if God makes a prediction, he will cause the experimenter to make the opposite choice,

THEN

God can not give an accurate prediction to the experimenter about the choice he will make.

And I know that this hypothetical scenario in no way reflects reality, as God would never actually choose to participate in such an experiment in the first place. The hypothetical scenario is designed to show that God couldn’t make an accurate prediction in these conditions, even if he wanted to. He can still know what Tyrion will pick, he just can’t tell him this information.

 

[CandideWest]

Remember the scene at the end of the second Matrix movie? Where Neo is conversing with the Architect, and the Architect presents him with a choice: either enter the door to the Source and save the whole human race, fulfilling his function as the One, or, re-enter the Matrix to save his girl, who is definitely going to die anyway. The Architect observes the physiological effect of the decision-making process in Neo, and knows that Neo is going to choose to save Trinity.

Your error in your above paragraph conflates “cannot” with “will not.” When God predicts a free will decision of a human creature, He is reporting what the human will do, as opposed to what he must do. Choice and necessity are opposite, here. What we do of necessity, we must do. What we do of choice, we will do.

No, you misunderstand. That is not adequate. That’s actually why I raised the point about the “many worlds” tool. The point is that there is no possible world in which Tyrion chooses B. Which means that it is not even an option. In other words it is logically impossible.

If you are saying that Tyrion could do something which is logically impossible then you are granting him more power than even omnipotence entails.

In any case we still have the previously identified “what answer will never be given to this question”. The question CANNOT be answered correctly, even by an omniscient God, despite the fact that there are correct answers and he will KNOW all the correct answers.

I think that’s actually a much neater demonstration of the impossibility of demonstrating omniscience.

 

[CandideWest]

Not exactly. I’m saying that the future God sees in the one in which he already told Tyrion what he would do. Tyrion can do what ever he likes but he does eventually throw the die after being told. That’s the future God sees. It might seem like Tyrion has no free will but he does. It doesn’t matter how complex or simple the event might be. My point is, that God sees the actual future including the effect of his own actions.

You’re right, an omniscient God would SEE the actual future, including the effect of his own actions. That’s exactly why the situation creates a logical impossibility.

God knows that if he says “A” then Tyrion will choose “B”. Therefore any answer given by God is wrong, therefore he will have to decline to answer the question and simply watch Tyrion do what he knew he was going to do.

That leaves God still being omniscient and knowing the future, but unable to tell Tyrion about it.

Again, it’s easier with the question “what answer will never be given to this question?”. Tyrion asks God and despite the fact that there are an infinite selection of correct answers available, God cannot give any of them without making that answer wrong. So he does not answer.

It’s just a rigged game designed to make it logically impossible to provide a correct answer.

I really don’t understand why people are getting so twitchy about this.

 

[Pieman333272]

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

Your “logic” rests on a mess of blatant non-sequiturs. If God “refuses to participate” it by no means entails that he admits he cannot prove his omniscience. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of other reasons for God’s not “participating” in the “game”. Likewise, even if this “game” cannot prove God’s omniscience, that does not mean God cannot in principle prove his omniscience. And just because God both says he is omniscient and doesn’t reveal his knowledge, that doesn’t mean “God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge”. None of your conclusions follow from the facts of the example.