Double trouble!

[JamesATyler]

So you are agreeing that your solution is that God tells a lie?

Remember if God says “You will choose A” knowing full well that Tyrion is in fact going to choose B then that is a lie. No amount of sophistry changes that.

There is no lie in the statement. God says he will choose the opposite of his prediction. God predicts A.

You say Tyrion chooses B *because *God predicts A. B is the opposite of A.

I say Tyrion chooses A *because *God actually predicts B.A is the opposite of B.

God can correctly predict Tyrion by addressing his inner motivation. His inner motivation is to choose the opposite. Tyrion has the free will to work out his choice either way he wants but he ultimately will choose the opposite of whatever he believes God has predicted. Therefore, God’s prediction is true. He chooses whatever he thinks is opposite. Arguing with that is just arguing with a truthful statement.

 

[JamesATyler]

There is no lie in the statement. God says he will choose the opposite of his prediction. God predicts A.

You say Tyrion chooses B *because *God predicts A. B is the opposite of A.

I say Tyrion chooses A *because *God actually predicts B.A is the opposite of B.

God can correctly predict Tyrion by addressing his inner motivation. His inner motivation is to choose the opposite. Tyrion has the free will to work out his choice either way he wants but he ultimately will choose the opposite of whatever he believes God has predicted. Therefore, God’s prediction is true. He chooses whatever he thinks is opposite. Arguing with that is just arguing with a truthful statement.

One guy pointed out that it isn’t a question of whether God can predict Tyrion but rather God can’t illustrate that to Tyrion. I think he does illustrate that he can as long as he tells Tyrion what his inner motivation is. Tyrion will see that he is choosing the opposite of God’s prediction just as God says he will and God will explain why.

Now if Tyrion trys to work it out a little bit deeper and says to himself “I will choose the same way as God” then he again is choosing the opposite of God’s prediction. For God predicts he will choose the opposite. If Tyrion attempts to choose the same answer he does so with the inner motivation of choosing the opposite of God’s prediction. So, if Tyrion looks at the truth of his inner motivation he will see that God has fully understood him and can correctly predict his response because God can tell him why he chose the way he did.

It is in the telling of “why” Tyrion made his choice that God will reveal his omniscience.

 

[tonyrey]

Maybe. I am a good mimic.

You’re certainly not a comic!

 

[CandideWest]

It’s ironic that you are praising Candide for continuing to debate the theists in this thread because what is actually agreed upon by both Candide and the theists is that your thought experiment is not problematic for Catholic theology. You praise Candide for his arguments and immediately go on to dispute his point.

You have only proven that God’s omniscience does not enable him to answer logically impossible questions, as we would expect. God’s ability to make an accurate prediction is contingent on the question having a logically possible answer. God has all knowledge and no non-knowledge.

I know this is down in the detail of symantics, but we might as well be precise. The exact statement is that “God’s ability to make an accurate prediction is contingent on the question being logically possible to answer”.

“having a logically possible answer” is not in itself enough. Otherwise you are back to God needing to be able to give his omniscient knowledge to another being. Which is logically impossible.

 

[CandideWest]

THANK you. The OP might as well have asked God, “If a jetski was rolling down the ocean and a wheel fell off, how many pancakes would it take to cover a doghouse?”

That the OP expects us to take this kind of “logic” seriously is, to be honest, a little frightening.

Not really, the question in the OP is valid (that is to say that there is a correct answer or answers), it is just not possible for God to answer correctly.

 

[JamesATyler]

Not really, the question in the OP is valid (that is to say that there is a correct answer or answers), it is just not possible for God to answer correctly.

The point is that God doesn’t have to answer correctly to reveal his omniscience to Tyrion. I think that is what this is all about. (Unless Tyrion is a complete dope)

 

[CandideWest]

There is no lie in the statement. God says he will choose the opposite of his prediction. God predicts A.

Therefore if Tyrion actually chooses B then it was incorrect (and if God knew that in advance, as he must have therefore a lied).

You say Tyrion chooses B *because *God predicts A. B is the opposite of A.

I say Tyrion chooses A *because *God actually predicts B.A is the opposite of B.

Well if God is predicting B then him saying “you will choose A” is self contradictory. and thus the statement MUST be false.

You cannot have God explicitly stating “You will choose A” and also have him “actually” predicting that Tyrion will choose B. The two positions are mutually contradictory so one of them must be false.

Essentially you’ve set up God’s reply to be “You will choose A and B” and then claiming that whichever Tyrion actually picks he’s agreed with God’s prediction. Alas it’s logically impossible.

God can correctly predict Tyrion by addressing his inner motivation. His inner motivation is to choose the opposite. Tyrion has the free will to work out his choice either way he wants but he ultimately will choose the opposite of whatever he believes God has predicted. Therefore, God’s prediction is true. He chooses whatever he thinks is opposite. Arguing with that is just arguing with a truthful statement.

You’re close here, what God can accurately say is “whichever response I gave to this question you would use your free will to select contrary to my prediction. So i’m not going to reply.” That would be an accurate response.

 

[CandideWest]

The point is that God doesn’t have to answer correctly to reveal his omniscience to Tyrion. I think that is what this is all about. (Unless Tyrion is a complete dope)

In order to demonstrate his omniscience God must be able to (as a minimum) answer every valid question which is asked of him. Tyrion has shown that this is logically impossible.

 

[JamesATyler]

In order to demonstrate his omniscience God must be able to (as a minimum) answer every valid question which is asked of him. Tyrion has shown that this is logically impossible.

I think at best he can claim that he has shown that it is impossible for any of us to answer but we have not heard from God yet.

 

[CandideWest]

One guy pointed out that it isn’t a question of whether God can predict Tyrion but rather God can’t illustrate that to Tyrion. I think he does illustrate that he can as long as he tells Tyrion what his inner motivation is. Tyrion will see that he is choosing the opposite of God’s prediction just as God says he will and God will explain why.

Sure, that’s one way of looking at it. As I said before God’s most likely answer would be something along the lines of “whichever response I gave to this question you would use your free will to select contrary to my prediction. So i’m not going to reply.”

Now if Tyrion trys to work it out a little bit deeper and says to himself “I will choose the same way as God” then he again is choosing the opposite of God’s prediction. For God predicts he will choose the opposite. If Tyrion attempts to choose the same answer he does so with the inner motivation of choosing the opposite of God’s prediction. So, if Tyrion looks at the truth of his inner motivation he will see that God has fully understood him and can correctly predict his response because God can tell him why he chose the way he did.

It is in the telling of “why” Tyrion made his choice that God will reveal his omniscience.

I’m afraid you’re just playing a game of symantics here hoping to trick Tyrion into not understanding God’s response. Of course that is a valid option for God in this position I suppose. He could make his “prediction” totally indecipherable so that Tyrion could never figure out the content of the prediction (maybe by responding in an ancient Mesopotainian language). But then again if he does that then he hasn’t answered the question in any sense which is meaningful.

Of course he’d have to avoid falling into the trap of making his response contradictory as you have above, since then he would have lied.

 

[CandideWest]

I think at best he can claim that he has shown that it is impossible for any of us to answer but we have not heard from God yet.

Er, not quite. He’s shown it’s logically impossible for God to answer ALL valid questions that we can ask. Thus he cannot demonstrate his omniscience. Of course he may be able to prove his omniscience using some yet unfound line of logic, but demonstrating is logically impossible and as such out of reach even to omnipotence.

 

[JamesATyler]

Er, not quite. He’s shown it’s logically impossible for God to answer ALL valid questions that we can ask. Thus he cannot demonstrate his omniscience. Of course he may be able to prove his omniscience using some yet unfound line of logic, but demonstrating is logically impossible and as such out of reach even to omnipotence.

Still I wonder what God would say. None of us are omniscient. At any rate, I not going to rule out God’s ability to answer Tyrion’s questions without first hearing from God.

 

[Lochias]

to answer ALL valid questions that we can ask.

You actually think Tyrion’s “question” was valid?

 

[JamesATyler]

You actually think Tyrion’s “question” was valid?

Yeah its valid. He is only asking if he has the ability to change his future if he knows what it is.

 

[Bahman]

I think that this double trouble arises from the fact that one has focuses on solving two problem, free will of an agent and God’s omniscience. To resolve the problem I first focus on the problem of the free will and if find an agreement upon it:

An agent (human, animal, anything with a state of mind) reaches to situation at a given time and its mind go to state of A. This state of mind is partially defined by a part that the agent has consciousness on it and another part which is undefined namely subconsciousness. The problem is to choose one scenario between two scenarios, lets say X and Y, each with the known outcome to simply to problem. From starting of the the process the sate of mind chances from A to B and decision is made. If consciousness is dominant part in making the decision which means the decision is made based on the knowledge or preference toward outcome X or Y then we say we made an conscious decision otherwise we say we maid an unconscious decision, or in another word say “I” made that decision. The so called free is when we make an unconscious decision since if it was conscious then the outcome could be priory known. Happy to hear from you and continue the discussion from here.

 

[Lochias]

Yeah its valid. He is only asking if he has the ability to change his future if he knows what it is.

…no, that’s not what the OP was asking. The OP asked if God can change a future that’s already set, and the premise is further muddied by the fact that the OP apparently knows, in this hypothetical scenario, exactly what God is thinking and saying.

It’s not valid, it’s just silly.

 

[JamesATyler]

…no, that’s not what the OP was asking. The OP asked if God can change a future that’s already set, and the premise is further muddied by the fact that the OP apparently knows, in this hypothetical scenario, exactly what God is thinking and saying.

It’s not valid, it’s just silly.

The thing I don’t get is that if I am told the future, then isn’t that future the one in which I knew about the future? So if it is about me performing a particular action sometime in the future then didn’t I perform that action after being told about the future?

Doesn’t the OP assert that God somehow makes the future a variable if he makes a prediction known because anyone can use that knowledge to change something, as if, the future had been one where God had not revealed his prediction?

Isn’t the truth rather, that if God told Tyrion what he was going to do, then for unknown reasons, Tyrion actually does decide to do that when the time comes, even though it doesn’t seem conceivable to him yet. Because, isn’t God actually seeing the future after he told Tyrion?

 

[Aloysium]

if I had the weird notions that nonbelievers have about God, I would be an atheist too

 

[Love4All]

Love4All: “There are possible worlds where Tyrion chooses A, and possible worlds where Tyrion chooses B.”

In which case your position is inconsistent. To be clear you said “He (God) states what exactly will happen in the future”. So you specifically stated that God’s prediction WILL be correct (a statement that you repeat below) but you also state that it is possible for Tyrion to choose contrary to God’s prediction.

Kindly do not place your words in my mouth. I have consistently maintained that God cannot possibly be incorrect. There is no possible world where Tyrion chooses contrary to God’s foreknowledge.

I know you are confused. I’m trying to help you. You make it very difficult when you do not listen to what I say, and instead make your own interpretations of what I say, and then attribute your interpretation to my words.

Lets walk you through this step by step. What happens is as follows:

1. Tyrion asks God “Am I going to choose A or B?”
2. God says “you’re going to choose A”
3. Tyrion makes his decision.

The question is, at point 3 where Tyrion is making his decision is he able to choose B.

My answer is that of course, he is able to choose B, by definition of “choose.” If there are no options, there can be no choice.

If your answer is that God’s prediction MUST be correct (in other words there are no possible worlds in which Tyrion chooses B at this point)

FULL STOP.

Your parenthetical is NOT a legitimate re-expression of my answer.

God’s prediction is correct. Period.

There are possible worlds wherein Tyrion chooses A, and possible worlds where Tyrion chooses B. With me so far?

There are no possible worlds where my first statement is incorrect. God’s prediction is correct, in all possible worlds. That is the ONLY factor in any of what we’ve discussed that is true in all possible worlds.

Arbitrarily limiting possible worlds to only those where Tyrion chooses A, or only those where Tyrion chooses B, lets me know that you do not have a good grasp of possible-worlds logic. It is a useful philosophical device, but if it is not used correctly, it is a tool of sophistry. And if you limit possible worlds arbitrarily as you’ve done, you are not using it correctly.

then Tyrion has NO CHOICE. It is simply logically impossible for him to choose B.

That is absolutely absurd. You have, as I already pointed out to you several posts ago, arbitrarily removed T’s free will by fiat. You have declared, without any supporting logic, that it is “impossible” for him to choose B. What removed his free will?

If your answer is that Tyrion can choose A or B (in other words that there ARE possible worlds where Tyrion chooses B at this point) then the thought experiment Tyrion has created is set in one of the possible worlds where he does indeed choose B and therefore we must assume God’s prediction was incorrect.

1. Tyrion can choose A or B.
2. There are possible worlds where Tryion chooses B.
3. The thought experiment Tyrion has created involves possible worlds.

To say it is “set in one possible world” is to eliminate all possibility of using possible-worlds logic properly. Unless possible worlds are alternative realities, they are useless in a discussion. If you say it is “set in one possible world,” you might as well just say Tyrion is telling us a story. There is no “what if. . .?” in a story, there is only the story line. The reader makes no choices.

1. In all possible worlds where Tyrion chooses B, God predicts B.

You see now, it is meaningless to state that Tyrion COULD choose contrary to God’s prediction but WON’T because that is outside Tyrions thought experiment.

If Tyrion’s thought experiment is to have any value at all, it will use possible worlds logic correctly as opposed to incorrectly. You are confused. But I am patient. So let us continue.

You might as well just replace Tyrions question with “what’s two plus two” and point out that God can correctly answer that question.

Yes, of course God can answer that question. Also, God can answer the question, “which will I choose?”

God cannot answer the question, “which answer will you not give?” because that question is not legitimate; rather, it is a paradox of negative self-reference.

Many worlds theory is a tool for showing alternative POSSIBLE futures or histories each representing a “world”. Thus far you have argued both that there are and that there are not possible worlds in which Tyrion chooses contrary to God’s prediction. Thus your position is inconsistent.

False, and again I will ask you kindly to cease and desist from placing YOUR words in MY mouth.

My consistent position is:

1. God is always right.
2. Tyrion is free.
3. God has infallible foreknowledge of every one of Tyrion’s future free will decisions.

Now, you want to alter one of these, thinking yourself and Tyrion to be clever enough to change such a basic reality. You wish to stipulate:

“If God informs Tyrion of His foreknowledge, that places Tyrion in a position of possibly contradicting it.”

This is incorrect, however. You may think it is correct, but you’d be wrong. Tyrion tried to prove it was incorrect, but his proof failed. You acknowledge that his proof failed, but you still somehow wish to maintain that what he tried to prove is actually correct. This is our point of disagreement. You have no real reason to hold your position, you only think you do, and I am doing my level best to correct that mistaken notion in you.

 

[Love4All]

Ahh maybe this is where you have been going wrong. You see you’ve got things out of sequence. In this thought experiment God’s prediction comes BEFORE Tyrion’s decision.

God’s foreknowledge is from eternity, before He made the worlds. It doesn’t matter when Tyrion finds out about it, facts are facts.

Not afterwards. That would be a very silly thought experiment indeed. It would be like a weather forcaster who can only predict yesterdays weather.

I agree that you are being silly, but I don’t think you quite yet grasp how.

Frankly I don’t care which argument you pick, but progress thus far has been flipflopping between two contradictory positions with steadily increasing speed. And trying to claim that between them God can do the logically impossible. It’s a bit silly but not something that concerns me unduly.

I am certain that this kind of thought is one of the lynchpins of your atheism, and I am doing my best to remove it. I have been assuming that you actually respect logic, and wish to hold true thoughts as opposed to errors. PLEASE don’t tell me I was wrong about that! But if I am actually wrong, please do tell me, and I’ll stop wasting my time on you.

Er, no. It’s you who is saying that there is no possible world in which Tyrion chooses B after God predicted A. Oddly it is also you who is arguing that there ARE possible worlds in which Tyrion chooses B after God predicted A. Mostly you are just arguing with yourself here, I’m just providing a running commentary as you do so.

There are no correct utilizations of possible worlds scenarios where they change in the middle of the scenario.

A possible world is a possible world. Events transpire in possible worlds. We don’t switch worlds in the middle. The entire sequence of events happens in ONE world. From among possible worlds, it is one of them, or, it isn’t possible.

So: there are possible worlds wherein Tyrion chooses A, and there are possible worlds wherein Tyrion chooses B. There are possible worlds wherein God predicts A, and there are possible worlds wherein God predicts B.

In ALL worlds wherein Tyrion chooses A, God predicts A. In all worlds wherein Tyrion chooses B, God predicts B.

In all possible worlds, God knows more about Tyrion than Tyrion knows about himself.

So how would he correctly answer the question “what answer will never be given to this question?” It’s designed to be logically impossible to answer correctly, despite the existence of perfectly valid answers.

Cite one.

So how could God provide me with that piece of particular knowledge?

You are incorrect in your assessment of the validity of that question.

If this is the case then why not try writing out a CONSISTENT argument which shows it, instead of just repeating an assertion that it is so.

You wish to assert that there are valid questions that God will be unable to answer. You just can’t state one. So what is there for me to argue?

Both questions are valid. In one case there is a single correct answer (which is contingent upon and inverse to whatever answer is given), which God is being asked for. In the other there are an infinitely large number of correct answers (like some mathematical equations) which God is being ask for one of.

However, in neither case is God able to correctly provide a correct answer. I’m not sure why you are struggling with this so much, but I’ll walk you through step by step if you need it.

“Will I choose A or B?” is a valid question.

“What answer will never be given to this question?” isn’t.

Now, you seem to be very confused on several points. First, you seem not to understand why the first is valid and the second isn’t. But that was never really the point of this thread at all, because the second is just your invention of an equivalent question that turns out not to be equivalent. The first question is the one we should be discussing.

But since it is likely you do not yet grasp the invalid nature of your second question, consider: what would be a legitimate answer? “17,” you say, arbitrarily. That negates itself, and because you gave it, it is an answer that would be given, it is not correct. A question with no correct answer cannot be valid.

But consider the first question. “A,” you say. That is a valid answer. Is it correct? Choose, Tyrion, which one is it???

[drum roll. . .]

“A!”

"No wait! I meant ‘B!’ "

“Stop! I didn’t mean to choose A, I meant to choose B! Do over!!!”

How many more times?