Double trouble!

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Please read what I wrote again. I stated that God cannot do what is logically impossible in response to your statement that God can do anything.
Oh, OK. Yes, I agree, except, I would simplify it by asserting that what is self-contradictory in its definition cannot rightly be called a “thing.” It is actually nothing.

This allows me to bypass any potential theological confusion arising from the Scriptural statement, “with God, all things are possible.”

This also makes it easier to answer riddles like, “Can God make a rock so big God can’t move it?”

My answer to that is,
  1. God can create rocks of any conceivable size.
  2. God can move rocks of any conceivable size.
  3. “So big God can’t move it” is NOT a conceivable size.
Or, “no such rocks.”

Thus, such a rock, is not, properly, a “thing.”

God can do anything. But “anything” does not include nothings.
 
can both L4A and Devo be right? yes

“God . . . can only do what is logically possible.”
but,
It is God who determines what is logical and what is possible.
Yes. And it is always vastly beyond our comprehension.
 
Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

[removed reference to the dice game since Candide’s alternate is simpler and more clear]

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. 😉 Can anyone refute this logic?
Lets create a nice simple example for discussion…

God is asked to predict if Tyrion will choose “A” or “B” (it doesn’t matter for this discussion what “A” and “B” represent, we are only interested up to the point where Tyrion makes a choice).

if God predicts that he will choose “A” then Tyrion chooses “B”.
If God predicts that he will choose “B” then Tyrion chooses “A”.

God cannot answer correctly.
Genesis 11: [1] And the earth was of one tongue, and of the same speech. [2] And when they removed from the east, they found a plain in the land of Sennaar, and dwelt in it. [3] And each one said to his neighbour: Come, let us make brick, and bake them with fire. And they had brick instead of stones, and slime instead of mortar. [4] And they said: Come, let us make a city and a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven: and let us make our name famous before we be scattered abroad into all lands. [5] And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of Adam were building.

[6] And he said: Behold, it is one people, and all have one tongue: and they have begun to do this, neither will they leave off from their designs, till they accomplish them in deed. [7] Come ye, therefore, let us go down, and there confound their tongue, that they may not understand one another’ s speech. [8] And so the Lord scattered them from that place into all lands, and they ceased to build the city. [9] And therefore the name thereof was called Babel, because there the language of the whole earth was confounded: and from thence the Lord scattered them abroad upon the face of all countries.

Wisdom 1:[1] Love justice, you that are the judges of the earth. Think of the Lord in goodness, and seek him in simplicity of heart. [2] For he is found by them that tempt him not: and he sheweth himself to them that have faith in him. [3] For perverse thoughts separate from God: and his power, when it is tried, reproveth the unwise:

Ezekiel 3:[17] Son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: and thou shalt hear the word out of my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me. [18] If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. [19] But if thou give warning to the wicked, and he be not converted from his wickedness, and from his evil way: he indeed shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul. [20] Moreover if the just man shall turn away from his justice, and shall commit iniquity: I will lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die, because thou hast not given him warning: he shall die in his sin, and his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: but I will require his blood at thy hand.

[21] But if thou warn the just man, that the just may not sin, and he doth not sin: living he shall live, because thou hast warned him, and thou hast delivered thy soul.

Deuteronomy 6:16 You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.

Luke 1:51 . . .He has confused the proud in their inmost thoughts.

The above Scriptures are given by way of fair warning.

God has a question for Tyrion. He will answer Tyrion’s question, but first He will ask him some questions of His own, and will make a particular stipulation before we play. Nothing unreasonable, and here is the question God asks of Tyrion:

After having read the above Scriptures, is it still your desire to prove Me incapable of correctly answering your question, or not? If not, I will commend you on your wisdom, which comes from Me. If so, I will confuse you in your inmost thoughts, and you shall be devastated. I can answer your question, and demonstrate my infallible foreknowledge, and leave your free will intact, all at the same time. Do you doubt My omnipotent power? That is the act of a fool. I leave it up to you. You have received fair warning!

Now which is it going to be? I will await your reply.
 
Well, what if God predicts A and at the instant Tyrion decides to choose B in his mind God predicts B and as soon as Tyrion decides to choose A God predicts A. If tyrion can change the future by changing his mind then why is God’s prediction bound to one answer. If it’s possible to change the future with free will then God should have the ability to change his prediction the instant the future changes. That only makes sense to me. If the future is in motion then God’s predictions are in motion with it. It just means that the truth about the future is changing from moment to moment.
 
Well, what if God predicts A and at the instant Tyrion decides to choose B in his mind God predicts B and as soon as Tyrion decides to choose A God predicts A. If tyrion can change the future by changing his mind then why is God’s prediction bound to one answer. If it’s possible to change the future with free will then God should have the ability to change his prediction the instant the future changes. That only makes sense to me. If the future is in motion then God’s predictions are in motion with it. It just means that the truth about the future is changing from moment to moment.
the future is in motion for us who are in time;
it has to be so for us to have free will, to determine our destinies

for God who is present in all moments in eternity,
our choice is set - all creation is before Him
 
You contradict yourself, in a single sentence. Bravo! :clapping:
If you really think there is a contradiction between Tyrion (following God’s prediction of A) being able to choose B and there being possible worlds in which he chooses B? Then please demonstrate this to be the case instead of just asserting it.
You have asked me two different things here, and in your confusion, you think they are one, but your equivocation fallacy rests, as I’ve been pointing out all along, on your conflation of freedom with necessity.
Have I now stated that even though God has stated a prediction that Tyrion will choose A, Tyrion is still able to choose B?
In other words there are possible worlds where following Gods prediction of “A” Tyrion actually chooses “B”?
You lost it in the translation. Your “other words,” actually express a completely different, and opposite, thought.
Right, lets try using a tool that should avoid any claims of ambiguity. How would you write out using modal logic (in possible worlds semantics) that “after God has predicted that Tyrion will choose A, Tyrion is still able to choose B”?

Fingers crossed following this approach this should enable us to reach a resolution.
 
If you really think there is a contradiction between Tyrion (following God’s prediction of A) being able to choose B and there being possible worlds in which he chooses B? Then please demonstrate this to be the case instead of just asserting it.

Right, lets try using a tool that should avoid any claims of ambiguity. How would you write out using modal logic (in possible worlds semantics) that “after God has predicted that Tyrion will choose A, Tyrion is still able to choose B”?

Fingers crossed following this approach this should enable us to reach a resolution.
In the Bible, God intervenes so that the person can truly make a choice.
This is the case where God speaks to Cain as he is allowing sin to overcome him. God warns him and Cain kills Abel, fully aware of what he is doing.

God:
  1. does not have to answer Tyrion
  2. can show Tyrion nothing, which is Tyrion’s fate if he never acts
  3. can tell Tyrion that he will choose A
If God responds (2) or (3), it would be to allow Tyrion to make a free choice. (1) will happen if the matter is of no consequence to whether or not Tyrion is saved.

In the third case, God knows that Tyrion, for example, will undergo a conversion when God reveals himself as Christ who put Himself at the mercy of man and died on the cross. Tyrion would be free to choose B (participate in the crucifixion of Christ) but chooses A out of love for God. Now there are a number of other possibilities, such as Tyrion being brought into the future to know what will happen and then forgetting it all when he goes back into the moment when he has to choose, meaning that he has to act to create his own destiny.

I still prefer the silence answer (2) because in real life, it is what most people hear when they fail to act. You gotta make that leap of faith.
 
If you really think there is a contradiction between Tyrion (following God’s prediction of A) being able to choose B and there being possible worlds in which he chooses B? Then please demonstrate this to be the case instead of just asserting it.

Right, lets try using a tool that should avoid any claims of ambiguity. How would you write out using modal logic (in possible worlds semantics) that “after God has predicted that Tyrion will choose A, Tyrion is still able to choose B”?

Fingers crossed following this approach this should enable us to reach a resolution.
<> = possibly.
] = necessarily.

E = there exists.
/\ = AND.
/ = OR.
~ = NOT.
w = possible world.
w(X) = possible world wherein X.

G = God.
T = Tyrion.
G(X) = God predicts X.
T(X) = Tyrion chooses X.

Ok? Your request:

E w( (<>T(A) /\ <>T(B) ) /\ G(A) ).

“There exists a possible world wherein (Possibly, Tyrion chooses A, and possibly, Tyrion chooses B.) AND God has predicted A.”

But this is passé by now, don’t you know, as Tyrion has been called on to the carpet by God. God is now confronting Tyrion, after Tyrion affirms his unchanged intention to thwart God’s power to accurately speak His mind. God means to shut Tyrion up but good, for his insolence in presuming to be able to shut God up. Just waiting on Tyrion’s confirmation of the aforementioned intention.
 
Alternatively:

E w( ]( T(A) / T(B) ) /\ G(A) ).

“There exists a possible world where Tyrion necessarily chooses either A or B, and God predicts A.”
 
I’m more interested to continue the direction started in post 436.
 
Consider a circle on a computer screen. It appears circular, but really, it is composed of numerous pixels, each a square. So that is a square circle.

Not convinced? Consider a cylinder. Viewed from one angle, is has the appearance of a square, whilst viewed from a different angle, it has the appearance of a circle. So that is a square circle.

Still not convinced? Consider a rope, which we lay out in a circular shape. Now consider that we take four equidistant points on the circle and pull them in the directions of the four compass points. We make our circle into a square. Square circle.

Still not convinced? Consider the same scenario as above, but rather than a rope, consider a circle constructed of some unknown, exotic matter. Imagine that this particular exotic matter has properties that will allow anything constructed of it to change shape, in this case from a circle to a square, and vice versa. Consider that there is a frequency associated with this shifting back and forth, so that the object oscillates between circularity and squaredom. Consider that the more energy in the object, the higher the frequency. Consider, finally, that with the proper amount of energy it will be possible for said object to oscillate at a rate of one cycle per planck time.

I submit — such an object would be an authentic square circle. Quantum uncertainty would dictate that it would always test as both, or alternatively, that it would test randomly, with statistics of 50/50, as each under different testings.

God can do anything at all.
👍
I knew you would get it! 🙂
 
It only proves that great minds think alike…
Here’s the problem, though, with your (or your and his, if you like) logic:

your construction depends in a particular fashion on the way you conceive of God’s omniscience. It also depends on your definition of ‘free will’ – and, to tell the truth, upon further reflection, I think your thought experiment fails due to your notion of free will!

First, omniscience. You want to test the claim that God is omniscient. How do you perceive of God’s purported omniscience, in the context of ‘time’? Does God exist inside of time, or outside of time?

If you answer ‘inside of time’, then you are suggesting that God has ‘special powers’ or is performing some sort of parlor trick. If ‘special powers’, then you can’t win – no matter what you select, God will have used his special powers to determine what you do (regardless what you say you want to do), and will correctly predict your action. If you say ‘parlor trick’, then you’re being dishonest about your goal: it’s not about proving God’s omniscience, it’s about revealing God as a fraud.

Let’s be honest here, too: no one in a Christian framework is going to say that God’s omniscience proceeds from His existence within the constraints of time.

So, then, we’re left with God’s omniscience as proceeding from his perspective outside of time. This, too, is problematic for you. The ‘movie reel’ approach is illustrative of my point. If God exists outside of time, then all time is observable by Him. You, however, are akin to a character within a movie. (There’s a particular problem with this analogy, of course: movie characters can be thought of as acting deterministically; we humans are claiming for ourselves the feature of ‘free will’.) In any case, even presuming that we have free will, God has to expend no effort to see what we will do at any point in time. There’s no special power: God simply observes what will happen. If God plays your game, he can, by definition, simply look and see what free will choice you made at some time that is ‘future’ in your perspective but is simply ‘in time’ in God’s perspective, and God can tell you, truthfully, what you will have chosen at that time.

Your construction attempts to look at this from a different perspective, saying, “no, whatever God says, I will thwart.” And, much of the discussion on this thread has been expended in an attempt to point this out to you: God simply sees the event, atemporally, that only unfolds to you over time. No coersion, no lack of free will. For a God who exists outside of time, this is simple observation.

Now, I know you’re not good with that. I know you’ll call me an idiot. However, do you have a particular response to this line of thought? Saying “you misunderstand the rules of the game: I choose after God” simply shows that you refuse to admit that, for a God outside of time, there’s no such thing as acting after God. You can talk about future contingencies in the context of omniscience and free will, but I notice that you haven’t attempted to even approach such notions.

Next: how your conception of free will sabotages your construction…
 
Agreement between two (mistaken) humans as to what God can and cannot do in no way binds God’s omnipotence.
I agree. The problem you have is that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach your concept of omnipotence. So while we could both be mistaken, the Church isn’t.
As you say, the laws were made by God, but they dont impose a law on God. If God acts in a way we and God find logical it is because He rightly chooses to do so of His own divine prerogative.
Truth is a divine attribute of God, and this includes logical truth. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Paragraph 15. To state that God is not required to conform to logical truth is to deny one of God’s attributes that has been dogmatically defined by the Catholic Church. So it isn’t just a matter of God bending some law that he suddenly decides doesn’t apply to him. It would be a denial of one of his perfect attributes.
It is perfectly possible for humans to (mistakenly) apply logic and arrive at the conclusion that God is acting in an evil way.
Yes, that is true. But I am not mistaken when I assert that it is an invalid proposition to state that God can be omnipotent and not be omnipotent at the same time and in the same sense. It violates the law of non-contradiction (and identity). It isn’t a mistake on my part.
Difficult to explain? Really? I think omnipotence is so easy to define that you can do so in just one word - omnipotent.
Um, you do realize that isn’t my quote to which you are responding. That is directly from St. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest Catholic philosopher to have lived. I don’t think you really understand what omnipotence means. It comes from the Latin omnipotentem, meaning all powerful or almighty. etymonline.com/index.php?term=omnipotent We recite it in the Nicene Creed every Sunday - that God is almighty. It does not mean he can do “anything,” even something that is contrary to his attributes.
That seems like a tautology. The list of things that are possible for an omnipotent Being = all things. And to try and qualify it by saying all things logically possible, raises the question about whether our logic is faulty in deciding which things God can and cannot do.
Again, that is St. Thomas you disagree with. That is his quote. The reason why he concludes that God cannot engage in logically impossible states of affairs is illustrated here: Can God be omnipotent and not be omnipotent in the same way and in the same sense? Apparently you would say that he could, because if God can do “everything” then he could be both omnipotent and not omnipotent simultaneously.

Without trying to come off as a jerk, it is obvious that you haven’t studied what the foremost Catholic philosophers and dogmatic theologians have said about this issue. I believe that you are ernest and seeking the truth, but what I am telling you here is not my mere opinion on what these disciplines teach.
 
You are mistaken. This type of question is fundamentally different from asking: how many sides does a “square triangle” have? While the question about a “square trinagle” is nonsensical by its very nature, there is nothing inherently contradictory about asking of the outcome of a future event. It only becomes problematic when the questioner uses his free will to purposefully invalidate God’s answer. And that shows the limitation of God - imposed by the questioner. (Asimov’s wonderful book: “The End of Eternity” shows some of the problems stemming from knowing our future.
I enjoyed the “Foundation“ series, although I don’t believe it gave me any insight into the ontological probabilities of competing theories of time. Maybe The End of Eternity does. I haven’t read it.

There certainly is a distinction between your scenario and the “square triangle” one, but that will always be true where the two scenarios are not identical. You would have to demonstrate why the addition of a free actor other than God (you seem to find that significant) would distinguish it in any meaningful way. The two propositions:

(1) God can create a triangle that is also a square.

(2) God can correctly answer a question where the answer will always be the opposite.

Both are logical impossibilities, regardless of the factual particulars involved.
Most of them, for sure, but not all of them! Some assert that God can create a “stone so heavy that he cannot lift it”. And they say that God can create that “stone”, and then can lift it. By the way, if the laws of logic are “binding” on God, then God is not “limitless”.
They are incorrect, although well intentioned. Logical thought is one of God’s attributes, and I don’t understand to what you are referring when you state that God is limitless. God cannot deceive. God cannot cease to exist. God cannot change events that have already occurred. God cannot be unjust. God cannot be unmerciful.

You may characterize these as limits upon God, but are they really? Being able to engage in a logical contradiction doesn’t appear to make God more perfect. Nor does the ability to deceive, be unmerciful, be evil, be non-eternal, etc. Perhaps you could attempt an explanation to the contrary.
The point is that there is no “correct” answer.
If you are correct (and I have reasons to doubt that you are), then you really do propose a logically impossible state of affairs. God cannot correctly answer a question for which there is no correct answer.
Incorrect. Not my “answer”, rather my hypothesised “action”.
Well, you’ve understood my language when I’ve referred to an “answer” until now. Shame on you for acting otherwise. 🙂
Just “saying” so, does not “make it so”.
I made an argument for why a conditional proposition would not entail a contingency. You have made no argument in response.
Again, not “will”, but “can”. If God would predict that selecting certain numbers will allow me to win the next jackpot on Powerball, I would gladly follow that prediction.
Oh dear. Then you concede that God could make the situation attractive enough that you would no longer hold to your skeptical ways. What if he always did that? Then no dilemma would ever exist. This thought experiment only worked because of strictures you placed on it. For abandoning them, you pay a price.
 
ok: on to the problem of free will, in the context of your argument.

your construction depends on your use of free will to ‘thwart’ the prediction of God: whatever God says, you counter with “I’ll do Y instead of X”. This is the crux of the conundrum that you’ve posed. Your free will thwarts God’s ability to prove God’s omniscience.

However, you offer a particular take on free will which hamstrings your argument. (As a side point, you fail to be able to note that other, equally valid approaches to the definition of ‘free will’ exist. That’s simply sad. It demonstrates that, most likely, you’re as much of an uncritical dogmatist as the folks whom you perceive as uncritical dogmatists. But, that’s neither here nor there… 😉 )

See, if your notion of ‘free will’ was simply ‘will’, and not ‘will + action’, then your construction would be more interesting. However, you steadfastly hold to the notion that your exercise of free will is not complete until you act on the desire that you claim to have. In other words, when you say “God says X so I will do Y”, then according to your own definition, you have not yet exercised free will! Your exercise of free will is only complete once you have taken your action. Here, however, you’ve simply predicted what you plan on doing.

And this is where your thought experiment falls apart. Your construction says “if God says X, I will do Y.” This cannot be realized until you take your action. At the completion of your action, you will only have two choices: either you say, “God predicted X, and I did Y” or you say “God predicted X and although I intended to do Y, as it turned out, X indeed happened!”

The latter simply proves our point that God (existing outside of time) was able to see what you would do, regardless of your stated intent.

The former demonstrates the problem that you cannot escape: this thought experiment says that at some time t[sub]0[/sub], God makes a prediction, and at some later time t[sub]1[/sub] you state your intent for an action at some still later time t[sub]2[/sub]. Your action at t[sub]1[/sub] is not an exercise of free will, according to your definition; it is simply a statement of intent. However, your thought experiment cannot, by definition, include the action of time t[sub]2[/sub]; that result can only be revealed after you have taken an action. In other words, your thought experiment is incapable of demonstrating your action at t[sub]2[/sub]; it can only predict what you will do at t[sub]2[/sub]…! This implies that your thought experiment not only cannot demonstrate what you hope it will, but also is incapable of demonstrating an act of free will!

Now, you can object that your experiment explicitly states what you will do – but that doesn’t hold water. Your experiment only has predictive value: and you, unfortunately, have defined free will in such a way that prediction (given its attempt to look into the future) cannot be considered a complete act of free will.

There is a certain wonderful irony in all this: your claim is that God’s ability to predict the future is doubtful, due to your ability to call upon free will; yet, your only opportunity to attempt to demonstrate your exercise of free will isn’t in action but only in prediction! You have become the monster that you hoped to dethrone! Your construction (claiming that God cannot predict future action) only works if you accept that one can accurately predict future action! Oh, beautiful! :yup:
 
I agree. The problem you have is that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach your concept of omnipotence. So while we could both be mistaken, the Church isn’t.
What if you misunderstand my conception of omnipotence? Afterall, I havent said anything other than (using as few words as possible)…“God can do anything He wants.”
That you seek to clarify or qualify that with additional and conditional yabbuts is your problem, not mine. 🙂
Truth is a divine attribute of God, and this includes logical truth…
Thats all you need to say to get agreement from me. 👍
But can you hear 10 billion philosophers from East and West arguing with each other and all screaming at God demanding…“what is truth”?
…But I am not mistaken when I assert that it is an invalid proposition to state that God can be omnipotent and not be omnipotent at the same time and in the same sense. It violates the law of non-contradiction (and identity). It isn’t a mistake on my part.
Took me a few moments to parse out the double negatives. 😉
Dont you think it would be easier to say that in 3 words - God is omnipotent?
…Um, you do realize that isn’t my quote to which you are responding. That is directly from St. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest Catholic philosopher to have lived…
Thomas Aquinas is no longer with us but if he was I wouldnt waste my time talking to him via you. No need to clarify if you are paraphrasing others when you post. I am talking with you not them.
As for your claim about him being the greatest I’m not so sure. But then I havent studied philosophy very deeply. In fact I never really got past “A” in the encyclopedia of philosophy.
Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas…and that was it for me! What more would a person need? 😃
…I don’t think you really understand what omnipotence means. It comes from the Latin omnipotentem, meaning all powerful or almighty…
Thanks for the heads-up. 👍
…Again, that is St. Thomas you disagree with. That is his quote. The reason why he concludes that God cannot engage in logically impossible states of affairs is…
I certainly dont agree with EVERYTHING Thomas Aquinas wrote but on this I do agree.
God does not engage in the logically impossible and He willingly conforms to His own divine fiat.
Now, where your problem arises when you say “logically impossible” and I say “logically possible” and one or both of us is wrong.

Islam, for example, asserts that it is logically impossible for God to have a Son. :eek:

Why are humans often wrong? Because we are NOT God and if God wants to have a Son He can, and that doesnt violate His laws of logic or identity or non-contradiction…etc etc.

If God wants to create beings in His own likeness, thats logically possible isnt it?

Answer me this? Can a thing be logical today and yet illogical tomorrow? Presumably you would argue that this is not comparing like with like.

But isnt it true that God can exist outside time and also in time, on Earth living among us?

Nobody would say God cant rewind time or uncreate that which existed yesterday. God can be omnipresent in both today and yesterday and it seems obvious to me that His transcendence of space/time affords Him a potential transcendency over logic - IF HE WANTS.
…Without trying to come off as a jerk, it is obvious that you haven’t studied…
No offense taken. 🙂
You are entitled to your opinion of someone on the internet whom you dont know much about.
 
There certainly is a distinction between your scenario and the “square triangle” one, but that will always be true where the two scenarios are not identical. You would have to demonstrate why the addition of a free actor other than God (you seem to find that significant) would distinguish it in any meaningful way. The two propositions:

(1) God can create a triangle that is also a square.

(2) God can correctly answer a question where the answer will always be the opposite.

Both are logical impossibilities, regardless of the factual particulars involved.
This is the place where we can start the analysis. The two scenarios are significantly different. There is no need to elaborate on the “square triangle”, it is simply two contradictory physical characteristics.

What needs to be examined is: “WHY can God not answer the question, which is contingent upon the action of the questioner?”. The answer is very simple: "because the event which is being asked does NOT exist YET. Becuase it refers to the future - and the future is not absolute - it is contingent upon our actions.

As a matter of fact the second one is not a logical impossibility per-se. It is MADE impossible by the free will of the questioner. And it is possible by the fact that the future does not exist YET. The problem is not with the presented senario, it is with the incorrect assumption that the future is “solid”, “absolute”, and therefore it can not be known. Just refer back to the problem of “what is the title of the book, which is NOT placed on my desk, but may or may not be placed upon it sometime in the future?”. Obviously no “omniscient” being is expected to answer such a question. And there is no contradiction included here. Simply the lack of information, which would make knowledge possible.
Oh dear. Then you concede that God could make the situation attractive enough that you would no longer hold to your skeptical ways. What if he always did that? Then no dilemma would ever exist. This thought experiment only worked because of strictures you placed on it. For abandoning them, you pay a price.
Of course I would modify my ways based upon the prediction. And since I COULD change my action, it PROVES that the future is contingent, and therefore it cannot be known. The proposed concept of “omnipotence” which is supposed to include the knowledge of the future is thereby PROVEN incorrect.

If we would restrict to a subset of the possible questions to those where it is in the best interest of the questioner to follow the prediction, there would be no dilemma. But this would be like an exam, where the teacher would only ask those questions, for which the student knows the answer. It would not be a fair test.
 
This is the place where we can start the analysis. The two scenarios are significantly different. There is no need to elaborate on the “square triangle”, it is simply two contradictory physical characteristics.

What needs to be examined is: “WHY can God not answer the question, which is contingent upon the action of the questioner?”. The answer is very simple: "because the event which is being asked does NOT exist YET. Becuase it refers to the future - and the future is not absolute - it is contingent upon our actions.

As a matter of fact the second one is not a logical impossibility per-se. It is MADE impossible by the free will of the questioner. And it is possible by the fact that the future does not exist YET. The problem is not with the presented senario, it is with the incorrect assumption that the future is “solid”, “absolute”, and therefore it can not be known. Just refer back to the problem of “what is the title of the book, which is NOT placed on my desk, but may or may not be placed upon it sometime in the future?”. Obviously no “omniscient” being is expected to answer such a question. And there is no contradiction included here. Simply the lack of information, which would make knowledge possible.

Of course I would modify my ways based upon the prediction. And since I COULD change my action, it PROVES that the future is contingent, and therefore it cannot be known. The proposed concept of “omnipotence” which is supposed to include the knowledge of the future is thereby PROVEN incorrect.

If we would restrict to a subset of the possible questions to those where it is in the best interest of the questioner to follow the prediction, there would be no dilemma. But this would be like an exam, where the teacher would only ask those questions, for which the student knows the answer. It would not be a fair test.
If you think you have proven something, please go ahead and submit this to any philosophic journal and let us know the results of your peer review.
 
Of course I would modify my ways based upon the prediction. And since I COULD change my action, it PROVES that the future is contingent, and therefore it cannot be known. The proposed concept of “omnipotence” which is supposed to include the knowledge of the future is thereby PROVEN incorrect.
Tyrion, this event has in fact never taken place. God has never predicted anything about you as far as I know. It is just a hypothetical. Since this event has never taken place we have to take some things on faith in order to come to the same conclusion as you. We have to take it on faith that God makes a prediction and more importantly we have to take it on faith that you will change your mind. We only have your word that you will. You are asking us to have faith in your resolve. Easy for you and those that desire to disprove God knows the future, but not so easy for anyone else. I don’t know what you would do if God came and stood face to face with you.
Of course I would modify my ways based upon the prediction.
This statement requires faith to believe.

This is a faith based thought experiment.
 
What needs to be examined is: “WHY can God not answer the question, which is contingent upon the action of the questioner?”. The answer is very simple: "because the event which is being asked does NOT exist YET. Becuase it refers to the future - and the future is not absolute - it is contingent upon our actions.

Of course I would modify my ways based upon the prediction. And since I COULD change my action, it PROVES that the future is contingent, and therefore it cannot be known.
Hey! We’re finally getting somewhere!

OK: so then – you now admit that you cannot know what your action will be, until you perform it! Great! So, in a certain way, your thought experiment cannot succeed: at best, you can say “I intend to do Y because God predicted X”, but you cannot say that this is the outcome until you actually do it.

Now, there are two approaches to this contingency: either you say “I will do Y” is true and you say “I will do X” is true – because neither has happened yet, and therefore neither can be said to be false; or you say that both of these propositions do not yet have a truth value.

Here’s the kicker, though: all this demonstrates is that you, the human actor, have no idea what the future holds. In other words, it only demonstrates that you are not omniscient. It says nothing about whether God is omniscient or not.

At best, all you can say is “I intend to do Y” or “it is unclear to me whether I will do Y or I will do X”. Both of these are fine, of course. They do not “disprove God’s omniscience”, as you claim they do. 😉
The proposed concept of “omnipotence” which is supposed to include the knowledge of the future is thereby PROVEN incorrect.
No, it isn’t. All that it demonstrates is that, to a person who exists within the context of time, the future takes on the appearance of contingency. It says nothing about whether a being outside of the context of time perceives time in that way. And, of course, God is one such being.

Now… if you could demonstrate that God is limited by contingency, then that would be quite the feat. However, your thought experiment here does no such thing. That is, it requires us to presume that God acts only within time, such that God is constrained by time. But, you give us no reason to suspect that this is the case.
 
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