Double trouble!

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Hey! We’re finally getting somewhere!
No, we are not. Not until I get a clear answer to this question:

Does omniscience include the knowledge of nonexistence?

As I already asked several times, but the question was neglected:

Does omniscience include the specific attributes of a book, which does NOT reside on my desk? Specifics include: “author, title, publishing date, number of pages. contents, typeface… etc.” All those specifics which would be readily available IF there really would be a book on my desk (IF I even have a desk!!). That book may not have been written yet. Furthermore, does omniscience “recognize” the difference between a non-existence book and a non-existence baseball bat? Is it even sensible to assign any “attributes” to a non-existent “thing” or entity?

In other words: “Just what the heck does omniscience mean”?

And the possible answer of “Omniscience means the knowledge of everything that is knowable” will be rejected - until there is a way to decide “what is knowlable” and what is not. Without clarifying these questions there cannot be any meaningful conversation. As they say: “the devil is in the details”.
 
NewAdvent:
using the scientia media maintains that we ought to conceive God’s knowledge of future free acts not as being dependent and consequent upon decrees of His will, but in its character as hypothetical knowledge or being antecedent to them. God knows in the scientia media what Peter would do if in given circumstances he were to receive a certain aid, and this before any absolute decree to give that aid is supposed. Thus there is no predetermination by the Divine of what the human will freely chooses; it is not because God foreknows (having foredecreed) a certain free act that that act takes place, but God foreknows it in the first instance because as a matter of fact it is going to take place; He knows it as a hypothetical objective fact before it becomes an object of the scientia visionis — or rather this is how, in order to safeguard human liberty, we must conceive Him as knowing it. It was thus, for example, that Christ knew what would have been the results of His ministry among the people of Tyre and Sidon. But one must be careful to avoid implying that God’s knowledge is in any way dependent on creatures, as if He had, so to speak, to await the actual event in time before knowing infallibly what a free creature may choose to do. From eternity He knows, but does not predetermine the creature’s choice. And if it be asked how we can conceive this knowledge to exist antecedently to and independently of some act of the Divine will, on which all things contingent depend, we can only say that the objective truth expressed by the hypothetical facts in question is somehow reflected in the Divine Essence, which is the mirror of all truth, and that in knowing Himself God knows these things also. Whichever way we turn we are bound ultimately to encounter a mystery, and, when there is a question of choosing between a theory which refers the mystery to God Himself and one which only saves the truth of human freedom by making free-will itself a mystery, most theologians naturally prefer the former alternative.
source
 
<> = possibly.
] = necessarily.

E = there exists.
/\ = AND.
/ = OR.
~ = NOT.
w = possible world.
w(X) = possible world wherein X.

G = God.
T = Tyrion.
G(X) = God predicts X.
T(X) = Tyrion chooses X.

Ok? Your request:

E w( (<>T(A) /\ <>T(B) ) /\ G(A) ).

“There exists a possible world wherein (Possibly, Tyrion chooses A, and possibly, Tyrion chooses B.) AND God has predicted A.”

But this is passé by now, don’t you know, as Tyrion has been called on to the carpet by God. God is now confronting Tyrion, after Tyrion affirms his unchanged intention to thwart God’s power to accurately speak His mind. God means to shut Tyrion up but good, for his insolence in presuming to be able to shut God up. Just waiting on Tyrion’s confirmation of the aforementioned intention.
Ok, and how would you write out using the same semantics that there are no possible worlds in which Tyrion picks B after God has predicted A?
 
Tyrion, this event has in fact never taken place. God has never predicted anything about you as far as I know. It is just a hypothetical. Since this event has never taken place we have to take some things on faith in order to come to the same conclusion as you. We have to take it on faith that God makes a prediction and more importantly we have to take it on faith that you will change your mind. We only have your word that you will. You are asking us to have faith in your resolve.
I could resolve to leap tall buildings in a single bound, but I’d be unable to carry out that resolve. Tyrion is asking us to have faith in his omnipotence, which is required of him in order successfully to disprove God’s.
Easy for you and those that desire to disprove God knows the future, but not so easy for anyone else. I don’t know what you would do if God came and stood face to face with you.
Neither do I, but, God does. That is more or less the point of all of this. God does, and He can do anything at all with that knowledge, and Tyrion is powerless to stop Him.
This statement requires faith to believe.

This is a faith based thought experiment.
Regardless of where the basis is, it is a thought experiment. Tyrion displays arrogant insolence towards God on a daily basis. God can do anything at all, including to shut Tyrion up.

But, Tyrion has blocked me, as he fears my logic, and if you are not careful to paint yourself as stupider than he is, he will block you, too. Assuming he has not already done so, it would help the resolution of this whole dilemma if you could somehow induce him to view and reply to post number 436. My Father and I have been collaborating on a solution and have devised an elegant one, along the lines of God’s confrontation of Job. God is a lot more patient than I am, so He will wait, but I am getting anxious and would like to present what I have to present.
 
Ok, and how would you write out using the same semantics that there are no possible worlds in which Tyrion picks B after God has predicted A?
E w( (<>T(A) /\ <>T(B) ) /\ G(A) ).

“There exists a possible world wherein (Possibly, Tyrion chooses A, and possibly, Tyrion chooses B.) AND God has predicted A.”

~E w( T(B) /\ G(A) ).

Or more simply,

~( T(B) /\ G(A) ).

Now to anticipate your several objections, here are some more true statements:

E w( <>T(B) /\ G(A) ).
E w( <>T(B) /\ T(A) ).
~E w( T(B) /\ T(A) ).
~E w( T(B) /\ G(A) ).

Are you any closer to grasping the meaning of the word, “possibly?”

Are you ready yet to acknowledge that the basis of your fallacy is your conflation of possibility with actuality or necessity?
 
What needs to be examined is: “WHY can God not answer the question, which is contingent upon the action of the questioner?”. The answer is very simple: "because the event which is being asked does NOT exist YET. Becuase it refers to the future - and the future is not absolute - it is contingent upon our actions.
But, God’s omniscience includes His infallible foreknowledge of future contingents based on the free will of creatures.

So your question, “but WHY is the moon made of green cheese?” fails because you failed to first ask the more pertinent question, “IS the moon made of green cheese?”

You assume, and somehow you have induced many who ought to know better to assume with you, that God couldn’t answer a simple direct non-self-contradictory question directly.

That is absurd, and the faithful Catholics here know it is absurd. Those who stick to those guns without being able to say exactly how, are to be commended for their exemplary faith. Those who are wavering, Pray more! And have some faith!

Those who would like to know just what God would do, be aware that God is waiting for Tyrion to answer the question posed to him in post number 436. Tyrion won’t even see it unless someone brings it to his attention.

Or, just continue to go around in circles and waste your time.
As a matter of fact the second one is not a logical impossibility per-se. It is MADE impossible by the free will of the questioner.
No it isn’t, that is an absurd overestimation of a human being’s power. You are asking for a smack-down.
And it is possible by the fact that the future does not exist YET. The problem is not with the presented senario, it is with the incorrect assumption that the future is “solid”, “absolute”, and therefore it can not be known. Just refer back to the problem of “what is the title of the book, which is NOT placed on my desk, but may or may not be placed upon it sometime in the future?”. Obviously no “omniscient” being is expected to answer such a question. And there is no contradiction included here. Simply the lack of information, which would make knowledge possible.

Of course I would modify my ways based upon the prediction. And since I COULD change my action, it PROVES that the future is contingent, and therefore it cannot be known. The proposed concept of “omnipotence” which is supposed to include the knowledge of the future is thereby PROVEN incorrect.
There is Tyrion’s boast, O Catholics! There is his challenge to your cherished Faith!

What are you going to do about it??
If we would restrict to a subset of the possible questions to those where it is in the best interest of the questioner to follow the prediction, there would be no dilemma. But this would be like an exam, where the teacher would only ask those questions, for which the student knows the answer. It would not be a fair test.
God is able to inform you precisely of everything He is about to do, allow you the free exercise of your free will, and rebuke you in your insolence, all at the same time. He is able to do it in one fell swoop, as it were. He has revealed to me exactly how. I await your location of anything resembling courage.
 
In other words: “Just what the heck does omniscience mean”?
Let me get this straight: you come here, posing a thought experiment that you claim disproves God’s omniscience, and a week later, you admit that you don’t even have a working definition for ‘omniscience’?

Well, that explains a lot … 😉

(BTW: I would advise you to do your research. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy might not be a bad place to do some reading. This article on foreknowledge and free will might be interesting for you to work your way through…)
 
Let me get this straight: you come here, posing a thought experiment that you claim disproves God’s omniscience, and a week later, you admit that you don’t even have a working definition for ‘omniscience’?

Well, that explains a lot … 😉

(BTW: I would advise you to do your research. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy might not be a bad place to do some reading. This article on foreknowledge and free will might be interesting for you to work your way through…)
That is an excellent article, I have referred to it several times in the past.

Tyrion won’t admit that it defeats him.
 
Let me get this straight: you come here, posing a thought experiment that you claim disproves God’s omniscience, and a week later, you admit that you don’t even have a working definition for ‘omniscience’?

Well, that explains a lot … 😉
I am interested im what does it mean to YOU… specifically pertaining those questions I asked. But if you cannot answer or do not wish to answer, then why do you waste my time?
 
Let me get this straight: you come here, posing a thought experiment that you claim disproves God’s omniscience, and a week later, you admit that you don’t even have a working definition for ‘omniscience’?

Well, that explains a lot … 😉
Agreed. So much for “double trouble.”
 
I am interested im what does it mean to YOU… specifically pertaining those questions I asked. But if you cannot answer or do not wish to answer, then why do you waste my time?
Um. You came to us with the question. Doesn’t that mean you’re wasting our time?
 
I am interested im what does it mean to YOU… specifically pertaining those questions I asked. But if you cannot answer or do not wish to answer, then why do you waste my time?
Wait a minute! I’ve already provided an account of omniscience, in this post from yesterday! I’ve already answered you, and yet you persist in telling me that I’m not addressing your concerns?

Perhaps you simply missed my post. After all, you’re not omniscient. If so, please go back and read it, and then respond.

Blessings,

G.
 
Wait a minute! I’ve already provided an account of omniscience, in this post from yesterday! I’ve already answered you, and yet you persist in telling me that I’m not addressing your concerns?

Perhaps you simply missed my post. After all, you’re not omniscient. If so, please go back and read it, and then respond.
Your post has nothing to do with the SPECIFIC questions I asked. For the time being I could not care less if God is omniscient or not. Just WHAT is this omniscience you speak of? After all, if “omniscience” is bogus, then it does not matter if God has it or not. Does omniscience include the knowledge of something that has never happened? Does omniscience extend to the knowledge of the non-existent book which is NOT on my hypothetical desk?

Get down to business. I asked very specific questions. If you wish to provide specific answers, I will be happy to read them. But do NOT provide irrelevant links to something else. Actually, do not provide link to anything. Use your own words.
 
:hmmm:
my “theory” on God’s onmiscience . . . ahem . . .
  • everything that is (was and will be) created, He knows because He creates it from His seat in eternity
  • He knows everyone so thoroughly, He can predict what can happen under specific circumstances (as I would know that dropping my pen it will fall, even if I don’t drop it); this does not mean that He has, imho, played out every single possibility that may or may not have occurred (the nonexistent manuscript on a nonexistent desk written by a nonexistent person).
 
Your post has nothing to do with the SPECIFIC questions I asked. For the time being I could not care less if God is omniscient or not. Just WHAT is this omniscience you speak of?
Sorry – I expected to you be able to make inferences and draw conclusions based on what you read. My mistake.

OK, then – I’ll walk you through it: if God exists within the constraints of time, then ‘omniscience’ means nothing more than ‘special power’ or ‘parlor trick’. On the other hand, if God is outside of time, ‘omniscience’ takes on a different meaning. From a Christian perspective, God exists outside of the constraints of time – in fact, He created time and space! Therefore, ‘omniscience’ means ‘being able to see all of time from a position outside of time’.

Does that help? Hope so.

Now that I’ve helped you read my post, help me read yours. After all, you use the term ‘non-existence’ in a way that’s completely insufficient for our purposes here. You’re positing a that you exist at some time t[sub]0[/sub]. You ask about a book that may (or may not) be on your desk at some later time (let’s call it t[sub]2[/sub]). By non-existence, do you mean:
  • that the book exists at time t[sub]0[/sub] or not?
  • that the book, if it exists at t[sub]0[/sub], simply isn’t present on the table at that time? If so, do you mean that this book is placed on the table sometime between t[sub]0[/sub] and t[sub]2[/sub]?
  • that the book comes into existence (i.e., is published) at some time between t[sub]0[/sub] and t[sub]2[/sub] (let’s call the time of publication t[sub]1[/sub])?
  • if you mean that the book comes into existence at t[sub]1[/sub], do you mean that it will be on the table at time t[sub]2[/sub]?
  • do you mean that, regardless what time the book comes into existence, it never gets placed on your table?
  • do you mean that that book is never published?
I think you don’t even need to answer these questions: I’ll just go ahead and inform you what the results of your thought experiment are, for each of them. It’s easier that way than waiting for you to insult me. 😉

Since we’re talking about a God who exists outside of time, He doesn’t experience ‘contingency’ like you and I do. (We can discuss this assertion, if you like, but I’d ask you to do your research first. That way, we’ll avoid all the histrionics.) Since we’re talking about the Christian God, this means that, as a starting point, we define him as omniscient and infallible. Therefore, if he observes what is on the table at time t[sub]2[/sub], then he is making this observation outside of time and this observation is, by definition, unable to be false. As a result, the contingency that you experience at times t[sub]0[/sub] and t[sub]1[/sub] are not experienced by God: at both times, God is aware of the contents of the tabletop at t=t[sub]2[/sub]. Therefore, the first four questions are easily enough answered: God sees the state of affairs at t[sub]2[/sub], and therefore, ‘contingency’ is not a problem. Let’s look at the last two questions. If the book comes into existence after t[sub]2[/sub], then asking the question “what does God know about that book?” is illogical: there is no circumstance under which that book will be on the table at t[sub]2[/sub]. If the book is never published, then the same logic applies. These, then, would be the question of whether God knows counterfactuals. However, that question is not what you proposed in your original thought experiment: the dice exist, so God will know what you throw. (We experience this as if it were the case that “at all times, God knows what you will throw when you throw the dice”, but God experiences it immediately and atemporally.)

There we go! If there’s a case I missed, please tell me. If not, please take my advice: read up a bit, ok? 👍
 
Sorry – I expected to you be able to make inferences and draw conclusions based on what you read. My mistake.
Indeed. You do not wish to be insulted, but you have no problems with issuing insults. Strange. The problem is that you either did not read my very short post, or simply did not understand it, or maybe did not take it at face value. So, let me reiterate.

I DO NOT CARE ABOUT GOD FOR THE TIME BEING!!!
I ONLY CARE ABOUT THE FULLY SECULAR CONCEPT OF OMNISCIENCE!!!

Clear enough? Do you understand “fully secular”? Before one can apply a concept to God (or anyone else!), it MUST be defined precisely.
Now that I’ve helped you read my post, help me read yours.
For someone who does not wish to be insulted, you are mighty condescending.
After all, you use the term ‘non-existence’ in a way that’s completely insufficient for our purposes here.
Hogwash. That is precisely the usage on non-existence which is pertinent. Something that does not exist. Does your concept of omniscience include the non-existent objects or events? One more way to put it: “what is the height of a jump achieved by a jumper, who was never born, since his parents never met?”.
 
Indeed. You do not wish to be insulted, but you have no problems with issuing insults. Strange. The problem is that you either did not read my very short post, or simply did not understand it, or maybe did not take it at face value. So, let me reiterate.

I DO NOT CARE ABOUT GOD FOR THE TIME BEING!!!
I ONLY CARE ABOUT THE FULLY SECULAR CONCEPT OF OMNISCIENCE!!!

Clear enough? Do you understand “fully secular”? Before one can apply a concept to God (or anyone else!), it MUST be defined precisely.

For someone who does not wish to be insulted, you are mighty condescending.

Hogwash. That is precisely the usage on non-existence which is pertinent. Something that does not exist. Does your concept of omniscience include the non-existent objects or events? One more way to put it: “what is the height of a jump achieved by a jumper, who was never born, since his parents never met?”.
“Fully Secular” Definition of God’s attributes? Allow me to use your phrase. Hogwash. You are on a catholic website asking catholic members a question about the catholic god, then telling them they are not allowed to use what they know to answer.
 
Indeed. You do not wish to be insulted, but you have no problems with issuing insults. Strange.
Yeah, I was getting pretty frustrated. My apologies.
Clear enough? Do you understand “fully secular”? Before one can apply a concept to God (or anyone else!), it MUST be defined precisely.
There’s a problem with that approach, though: in a Christian construct, only God may be omniscient. Therefore, the definition in and of itself must be about God. However, I think I’ve gone through the salient cases in my post. As a working definition, an omniscient being exists outside of time and experiences all things that are within time, simultaneously.
For someone who does not wish to be insulted, you are mighty condescending.
LOL… again, apologies. But… pot, meet kettle? :rolleyes:
Hogwash. That is precisely the usage on non-existence which is pertinent. Something that does not exist. Does your concept of omniscience include the non-existent objects or events? One more way to put it: “what is the height of a jump achieved by a jumper, who was never born, since his parents never met?”.
Again, that’s what the notion of ‘knowledge of counterfactuals’ is all about. It seems irrelevant to the present discussion, since you’re talking about a thought experiment in which you’ve promised to do something, so there is a distinct, existing thing for God to know about in (what we perceive as) the future. If you’re having a hard enough time pinning down the notion of omniscience and future events, you might consider putting aside the notion of counterfactuals for another day. For that reason, I’d prefer that we stick to the topic at hand, and not go off on another tangent. Let’s get this question resolved first, leaving counterfactuals alone for the moment (unless they come up as part of the context of your thought experiment – which I believe they do not).

Read up on ‘knowledge of counterfactuals’ or ‘Molinism’ for more info – but keep in mind that this is only one approach to the question; Catholic philosophers have disagreed on this topic throughout history…

To your particular question, though, in the context of this discussion: if there was no book at time t[sub]2[/sub], or if you decided not to throw any dice, then yes – the concept of omniscience that we’re working with here would include the notion that God knows that there’s no book there and that your action would be ‘no throw’. That doesn’t imply knowledge of counterfactuals, though.
 
There’s a problem with that approach, though: in a Christian construct, only God may be omniscient. Therefore, the definition in and of itself must be about God.
That kind of approach is the fundamental problem. The whole issue of “omniscience” is simply an expanded concept of “knowledge”. Knowledge is “valid information” about something, or as the old (and outmoded definition says) “justified true belief”. The question is: “how far can knowledge expanded” before it becomes nonsensical. That is a fully secular question. As an example, which you disregarded (again) is “the highest jump that a jumper would have achieved IF he had been born”. No sane person can say that this height can be “known”. Just like no sane person could say that the title of the book which is not on my desk can be “known”. These are examples of something that is “unknowable”.

Once this expansion is done, and agreed upon (!) then one can discuss what kind of “attributes” are needed for some to qualify as “omniscient”. And then finally, it can be discussed if it is sensible to assume that God has those attributes. In other words, it is a bottom-to-top approach.

This is the ONLY logical sequence of investigation. To posit up front that ONLY God can qualify as being omniscient is simply cheating! Furthermore, to exclude the counterfactuals would be “castrating” the question. No one denies that something that is “in front of your eyes” can be known. The question is, to what extent can something be known which is NOT readily available for examination.
However, I think I’ve gone through the salient cases in my post. As a working definition, an omniscient being exists outside of time and experiences all things that are within time, simultaneously.
Not acceptable for several reasons. One: “it talks about an omniscient being, without defining omniscience”. Two, it does not include counterfactuals. There are other, even more serious problems, but this is sufficient for the time being.
Again, that’s what the notion of ‘knowledge of counterfactuals’ is all about. It seems irrelevant to the present discussion…
On the very contarry, it is the central problem, since the result of those dice-tosses do not exist before the dies are already tossed. (By the way, I am quite familiar with the Molinist approach - and disagree with it, too.)
…since you’re talking about a thought experiment in which you’ve promised to do something, so there is a distinct, existing thing for God to know about in (what we perceive as) the future.
And this is a fundamental contradiction. Existence is not contingent upon the observer. To say that an event is “future” for one observer, but it is already “past” for the next one is a perfect example of violating the law of (non)-contradiction.

By the way, I will be gone for a two-week vacation from tomorrow onwards. I am not sure what kind of internet access I will have during this time.
 
No one denies that something that is “in front of your eyes” can be known. The question is, to what extent can something be known which is NOT readily available for examination.
In the case of a being who exists outside of time, and to whom all of what exists in time is ‘in front of (your) eyes’, there is nothing in the physical world – in what we observe as ‘past’, ‘present’, or ‘future’ – which is not readily available for examination.
On the very contarry, it is the central problem, since the result of those dice-tosses do not exist before the dies are already tossed.
From your perspective, yes: the result does not ‘yet’ exist. From the perspective of a person outside of time, it certainly does exist! Your issue here is that you are conflating your perspective, within the constraints of time, with a perspective outside the constraints of time. Before we can continue this discussion, I need you to deal with this issue. Do you recognize that, by definition, God exists outside of time, and therefore, there is no ‘before’ or ‘after’ in God’s eyes, with respect to what God sees? If you don’t like admitting to attributes of God, then substitute “a being outside of the constraint of time”…
And this is a fundamental contradiction. Existence is not contingent upon the observer. To say that an event is “future” for one observer, but it is already “past” for the next one is a perfect example of violating the law of (non)-contradiction.
Not true: it’s not existence that’s contingent, it’s the experience of existence! Your example of ‘past’ and ‘future’ only works for those who exist within the constraints of time; for one outside those constraints, it is not a matter of ‘past’ and ‘future’, as you posit: rather, all exists in the ‘now’, although there is awareness of the temporal dimension within the constraints of space-time.

Your example fails and it can be demonstrated through the movie analogy: the event “destruction of the Death Star” is ‘future’ for characters in the Star Wars movie, but it is neither ‘future’ nor ‘past’ for you, who are watching the movie!
 
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