Doubting Atheists

[QContinuum]

Now I’m a bit flustered. Rather late to be so commanding. Must switch to tea.

Please, sir continue.

 

[Seekingthetruth]

But one would think there are steps He could take, short of subverting my free will

I’ll agree, I’m sure there is. Perhaps there has a enough evidence presented in your life to warrant reasonable belief, and you’ve interpreted In a more naturalistic way or perhaps there hasn’t been any given . I would never try to psychologize you though because only you understand your inner workings.

 

[Seekingthetruth]

There is no single piece of evidence. Just like there wasn’t one thing that convinced me that God didn’t exist there wouldn’t be one thing that would convince me that He did.

I wasn’t looking for a single piece of evidence persay, i was thinking more generally. Since personal testimony (understandably), scripture, and philosophical proposals weren’t convincing. What would be? Or maybe a better way to word it, what kind of evidence convinced you of his non existence?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

There is no single piece of evidence. Just like there wasn’t one thing that convinced me that God didn’t exist there wouldn’t be one thing that would convince me that He did.

I wasn’t looking for a single piece of evidence persay, i was thinking more generally. Since personal testimony (understandably), scripture, and philosophical proposals weren’t convincing. What would be? Or maybe a better way to word it, what kind of evidence convinced you of his non existence?

I’m afraid that none of it has been convincing.

I have previously compared belief to the spin of a flywheel. When I was young it was spinning quite nicely in the direction of belief. But simple things like a realisation that a lot of the more fundamentalist beliefs were obviously wrong slowed that spin. And the more that I thought about it and the more I was actually taught, rather than strengthening my belief and increasing the spin, it actually slowed it down further.

It eventually stopped. And after very many years of further investigation, it is spinning a lot faster in the opposite direction. And over very many years I have never read, listened to or heard anything at all that would change that.

So for me to change my mind, all that evidence that I have already rejected would have to somehow become acceptable. I can’t see how that is conceivably possible. It’s strictly a one way street.

 

[PickyPicky]

Perhaps there has a enough evidence presented in your life to warrant reasonable belief, and you’ve interpreted In a more naturalistic way or perhaps there hasn’t been any given .

Thank you, that’s a very reasonable reply.

In this, and another, thread people have said how they gradually lost their faith. It was not so with me. I was raised in a Christian family, with regular attendance at church services, and (being English) I attended Christian worship every morning at school. At the age of 14 or so I realised fairly abruptly that I didn’t believe the truth of what I had been told. I didn’t question the honesty of those who believed, but I became aware suddenly, and to my surprise, that I didn’t. In the sixty years following I have not changed that view.

You may, of course, be right, and I may have misinterpreted the evidence: it doesn’t seem that way to me.

 

[OddBird]

I won’t go into details but a few years ago my wife and I were involved in an incident when I actually thought my time was up. Two people did actually die but we got lucky. There was enough time for me to mentally say goodbye to our kids and hope that it wasn’t going to hurt too much. So there was time enough to contemplate the end.

Interestingly, as a believer who was involved in a car situation where I thought we would die, my experience was much the same. I said mentally goodbye to my loved ones and said a short prayer for it not to hurt too much and to be over quickly. I don’t remember fear or pleading for help or forgiveness either, just bracing myself for pain, a kind of rather peaceful acceptance, and something like trust – which is probably where we differed.

 

[Frankenfurter]

But…if you say there’s a God then I don’t have a reasonable expectation that you are correct. Just the opposite in fact. Because if the proposal is true, then it will have the biggest effect on my life that can be imagined. So I’ll need something other than you telling me it’s so.

That’s not to say I discount what’s written in scripture. I am as confident about the existence of Jesus as I am of Socrates. Which is - pretty confident. But whether either of them existed or not makes no difference to me whatsoever. We have records of what each is meant to have said and that’s good enough for me.

But God? That makes all the difference there could be. So you’ll need a whole lot more than what has been available so far to convince me He exists, because none of it has worked up to this point. And in fact, most of it has served to strengthen my conviction that I am right.

I have always felt that atheists are reasonable people, and your post highlights that fact. Thank you.

I assure you, that nobody has the responsibility to prove God to you. So nobody will ever show up and drop a huge amount of proof in your lap that meets the high standard of proof needed to believe in the most impossible and miraculous thing that would have the biggest effect on your life.

For others, given the words of Christ, we choose to seek him in the way that he tells us to. That is also reasonable. Unfortunately, once we have found him, there is no easy way to give this to others.

What we find, is that the reality of God is in the relationship. Just like the Trinity itself is a relationship, our reality, our existence that God has given us, is a reality of a relationship to HIM. And yes, we come to know him as a person. It is a two-way street.

This does not need to change your life in any way really. For some, it is just an awareness. But I mean you don’t have to start worshiping God all the time, or even change your life in any way actually.

The big deal stuff, the miracles, the huge effect on you life, that has already happened actually. Here you are. Life is a miracle. You are a miracle.

 

[Neithan]

That’s an interesting picture. What is the source of the “spin” to your mind? Is that a kind of cognitive bias?

 

[Neithan]

All things remaining equal, I’ll admit, to me divine hiddenness is probably the best argument against the existence of the divine.

Against the existence of the divine or in divine intervention (miracles)? I think it’s often misused for the former when it is only material to the latter.

 

[Pattylt]

I’ve spoken on other threads about my faith journey and investigating Christianity. What my biggest and final roadblock was, being raised Jewish, being able to conceive of Jesus as being God. For anyone raised Jewish this seems an almost insurmountable roadblock. We are drilled from infancy that God is not man and man is not God.

While I can admit that some Jews do cross that roadblock, it’s rare. I often wonder for those not raised in a Christian environment how often it happens also. Specifically someone never raised in a culture where the majority of people are exposed to the Jesus story. For those raised against the story or just never hearing it, it’s a hard concept to believe.

Even if I was given evidence that caused me to believe in God again…whatever that evidence was, I’m still pretty sure I wouldn’t believe the Jesus story. It’s almost like a step too far.

For Christians that have lost their faith, did both God and Jesus go out together or was there a middle step?

 

[SPBlitz]

There is no single piece of evidence. Just like there wasn’t one thing that convinced me that God didn’t exist there wouldn’t be one thing that would convince me that He did.

I’m discounting over the top nonsense such as rearranging the heavens.

Just curious, do you have ideas of what that evidence (or series of evidence) might be? Something that is obvious enough that it couldn’t be explained naturalistically, but not over-the-top rearranging the stars. I’m having trouble thinking of something that would strike that balance.

 

[Hume]

HerCrazierHalf:

Effectively the believer is warping the concept into their framework.

I suspect you’ve come across Christians who try to tell you that you “'have faith in atheism” which of course is warping (and denigrating) the concept of faith. That’s frustrating. You don’t have faith. But you do have beliefs, and some interaction of those beliefs condition your atheism.

I think a Common Thread that can be found in most western atheists is a dedication to the idea that what is real must be observable and verifiable as such.

It’s a pretty reasonable belief.

Starting from a position of theistic uncertainty, I’ve just not been convinced that any of the hundreds of gods out there are real.

To many atheists, the debate isn’t Jesus v. Nothing. Its Jesus v. Nothing v. Allah v. The Brahman v. Shiva v. Jewish Yhwh v. Etc…

 

[Seekingthetruth]

I have previously compared belief to the spin of a flywheel.

That’s actually a really interesting comparison.

But simple things like a realisation that a lot of the more fundamentalist beliefs were obviously wrong

I believe this is quite common because I dealt with the exact same thing

So for me to change my mind, all that evidence that I have already rejected would have to somehow become acceptable. I can’t see how that is conceivably possible. It’s strictly a one way street.

Now would all the evidence you previously rejected have to become acceptable or could there be new evidence presented that could begin to spin the wheel the other way?

 

[Seekingthetruth]

Thank you, that’s a very reasonable reply.

You’re quite welcome.

I was raised in a Christian family, with regular attendance at church services, and (being English) I attended Christian worship every morning at school

I believe this is common with many in the West. If I may ask, by English do you mean you’re American or British?

didn’t believe the truth of what I had been told

I can relate with that 100%

I didn’t question the honesty of those who believed

I was less charitable because i looked at believers as either ignorant or charlatans.

You may, of course, be right, and I may have misinterpreted the evidence: it doesn’t seem that way to me.

Perhaps, however only you know you. I do have another question. Would you say you have cartesian certainty there is no god(s) or supernatural or are you more agnostic towards the proposition?

 

[PickyPicky]

I believe this is common with many in the West. If I may ask, by English do you mean you’re American or British?

I am English and I am British. Americans may speak English (of a kind), but they ain’t English.

Would you say you have cartesian certainty there is no god(s) or supernatural or are you more agnostic towards the proposition?

I would say neither of those. I don’t have Cartesian certainty — I try to retain in the corner of my mind a little room for doubt. But agnostic would be overstating it. I think the likelihood of a God is so slim that the possibility can for all practical purposes be ignored.

 

[Seekingthetruth]

Against the existence of the divine or in divine intervention (miracles)? I think it’s often misused for the former when it is only material to the latter.

Personally i feel as though as though it would be against the divine because I feel as though “miracles” or things that defy all logic or reason could still occur via a naturalistic framework

 

[Seekingthetruth]

I am English and I am British. Americans may speak English (of a kind), but they ain’t English.

Too true! I grew up in the American South, and they speak only what I could describe as “murcian”

I don’t have Cartesian certainty

Yeah, i always thought Cartesian certainty is for the birds, so to say.

I think the likelihood of a God is so slim that the possibility can for all practical purposes be ignored.

So i would assume you assert a Methodical or Ontological Naturalism of some sort, is that correct?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I won’t go into details but a few years ago my wife and I were involved in an incident when I actually thought my time was up. Two people did actually die but we got lucky. There was enough time for me to mentally say goodbye to our kids and hope that it wasn’t going to hurt too much. So there was time enough to contemplate the end.

Interestingly, as a believer who was involved in a car situation where I thought we would die, my experience was much the same. I said mentally goodbye to my loved ones and said a short prayer for it not to hurt too much and to be over quickly. I don’t remember fear or pleading for help or forgiveness either, just bracing myself for pain, a kind of rather peaceful acceptance, and something like trust – which is probably where we differed.

It was interesting that you felt an acceptance and I felt a sense of frustration. Quite possibly because you felt deep down that it wasn’t the end of existence, that there was going to be more, and I felt frustrated because I believed the opposite. That it was all going to end a lot earlier than I’d envisaged.

It would be interesting to find out what other people felt at times like that. Whether people with belief and those without had similar thoughts.

 

[Freddy]

The big deal stuff, the miracles, the huge effect on you life, that has already happened actually. Here you are. Life is a miracle. You are a miracle.

Indeed (except that I would use the term in a secular manner). Star stuff as Sagan said. I try not to forget it.

 

[SPBlitz]

It would be interesting to find out what other people felt at times like that. Whether people with belief and those without had similar thoughts.

I’ve never had a near death experience, but I’ve often imagined what it’ll be like to be moments away from death. To be honest, I always felt extreme apprehension. Both of the possibility of Hell, and of annihilation (which I’ve always imagined felt suffocating, for some reason).