Doubting Atheists

[Freddy]

That’s an interesting picture. What is the source of the “spin” to your mind? Is that a kind of cognitive bias?

You are told something and you believe it or not. If it’s inconsequential (my neighbour has a dog) then it’s a ‘small flywheel’. Spins easily one way or the other. And is relatively easy to stop it and reverse the spin.

And let’s say that you’re a young child being taught about God. Easy to believe. No big deal. But as you grow older the wheel gets bigger. The belief is more important. And the more you are convinced of His existence the faster it spins so it’s harder to slow it down.

It’s like the importance of the belief and the depth of it are equivalent to mass and velocity. Get to a point and the momentum becomes virtually impossible to stop whatever arguments are used.

I think the trick is to examine any given argument thoroughly before you allow it anywhere near your ‘flywheel of belief’. Test it out. Take it apart. Put it back together again. Look at it from another angle. Look for other examples of the same argument. Look for bias in the person using the argument. And be honest with yourself.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I have previously compared belief to the spin of a flywheel.

That’s actually a really interesting comparison.

But simple things like a realisation that a lot of the more fundamentalist beliefs were obviously wrong

I believe this is quite common because I dealt with the exact same thing

So for me to change my mind, all that evidence that I have already rejected would have to somehow become acceptable. I can’t see how that is conceivably possible. It’s strictly a one way street.

Now would all the evidence you previously rejected have to become acceptable or could there be new evidence presented that could begin to spin the wheel the other way?

I believe that I have honestly examined all the evidence to date to reach a conclusion ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. So there would need to be something new. And short of over-the-top miracles then I’m not aware of anything that could sow any doubt.

 

[Seekingthetruth]

And short of over-the-top miracles

But couldn’t you just dismiss anything like that using Shermer’s last law or something similar?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

And short of over-the-top miracles

But couldn’t you just dismiss anything like that using Shermer’s last law or something similar?

If they said they were aliens then it’s not relevant. If something happened and it was directly linked to Christianity in some way then it might be possible.

If I was the only one to experience it then I would doubt my own sanity before I accepted it. But if everyone else believed it to be true it then it might still be my personal illusion (that everyone believed it) but I may as well accept it in that case as that would be my reality.

That’s the same concept as if we discovered we were computer generated characters in some galactic video game. OK, some mental readjustment would be needed but hey, it’s real for us - so carry on. Just don’t take the red pill…

 

[Seekingthetruth]

If they said they were aliens then it’s not relevant. If something happened and it was directly linked to Christianity in some way then it might be possible.

Fair enough

If I was the only one to experience it then I would doubt my own sanity before I accepted it. But if everyone else believed it to be true it then it might still be my personal illusion (that everyone believed it) but I may as well accept it in that case as that would be my reality.

So this is interesting, let’s camp here for a moment. We’ll assume God gave you a personal revelation, you would find that less convincing than a miracle everyone else experienced? How many other people would have to believe this supernatural event was actually supernatural?

 

[Dan_Defender]

It’s used to suggest that at moments of extreme danger, many skeptics abandon their skepticism and turn to God. Whether that’s true or not we can debate all day

From my personal experience that would seem rare. The atheists I know in real life are so convinced of it that: a) they have no interest in talking about God at all, they are too busy enjoying life because death is so final or b) they are constantly preaching atheism because God non existing is so obvious that everyone should buy into it, they would even consider joining forums such as CAF to ‘enlighten’ the faithful

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

If they said they were aliens then it’s not relevant. If something happened and it was directly linked to Christianity in some way then it might be possible.

Fair enough

If I was the only one to experience it then I would doubt my own sanity before I accepted it. But if everyone else believed it to be true it then it might still be my personal illusion (that everyone believed it) but I may as well accept it in that case as that would be my reality.

So this is interesting, let’s camp here for a moment. We’ll assume God gave you a personal revelation, you would find that less convincing than a miracle everyone else experienced? How many other people would have to believe this supernatural event was actually supernatural?

It’s exceptionally easy to believe something that is patently untrue. Even mild doses of a huge variety of common drugs will do that. As will group-think and a sincere desire to believe something to be true. Which is not meant as being derogatory to religious beliefs - it works for political beliefs as well, but I can’t help that there is a connection to be drawn if you so choose. Likewise minor problems with your neurobiology.

So if I think there’s a china dog sitting at the end of the bed chatting with me (which I remember my father swears was true when he was in hospital very many years ago and drugged up to the eyeballs after an op), then I will immediately assume something has gone wrong with the way I see the world. But if the whole family sees it as well then I have two choices. Either their belief that it is true is part of my delusion or it actually is true.

If everyone else appears to believe it then I may as well accept it myself. Just as I accept that I am sitting here writing this rather than being a brain in a vat just imagining me doing it.

As to the numbers? Well, it would give me cause for concern if some people saw it and others didn’t. I’m not sure it’s possible to put a figure on it. I might believe it if, for example, just my wife and I saw it. It’s a bit too hypothetical for a definite answer.

 

[Freddy]

RolandThompsonGunner:

It’s used to suggest that at moments of extreme danger, many skeptics abandon their skepticism and turn to God. Whether that’s true or not we can debate all day

From my personal experience that would seem rare. The atheists I know in real life are so convinced of it that: a) they have no interest in talking about God at all, they are too busy enjoying life because death is so final or b) they are constantly preaching atheism because God non existing is so obvious that everyone should buy into it, they would even consider joining forums such as CAF to ‘enlighten’ the faithful

I’m not here for that purpose. Heaven forbid. But I do struggle with a view that it is so obvious to me that God doesn’t exist that there surely must be something missing in the make-up of all those who do believe.

Correction: Different as opposed to missing (although the occasional poster does have me wondering at times - no names…).

 

[Dan_Defender]

But I do struggle with a view that it is so obvious to me that God doesn’t exist that there surely must be something missing in the make-up of all those who do believe.

Correction: Different as opposed to missing (although the occasional poster does have me wondering at times - no names…).

So do you agree that atheists converting in moments of danger are rare? you probably know more atheists than I do

 

[Pattylt]

It would be interesting to find out what other people felt at times like that. Whether people with belief and those without had similar thoughts.

I was in a very serious car accident when I was 16 and still a strong Orthodox Jew. I remember time slowing down and the pressure of my face on the windshield. I did have a sensation of my life passing before my eyes and thinking bout my poor parents having to deal with my death. I don’t remember thinking of God at all. I might have and just don’t remember as there was quite a bit that I don’t remember before I lost consciousness. Plus, I was only 16 so thinking of my parents more than anything else makes sense for that age.

 

[Pattylt]

And short of over-the-top miracles then I’m not aware of anything that could sow any doubt.

I think I’m even past the point of “miracles”. Every time they are investigated with experts with no skin in the answers, they turn out to be misunderstanding of the experience, a natural explanation or a lie. It’s to the point that at the very most, all I could say is it’s unexplained but all my experiences with previous miracles leave me rejecting them.

I’ve stated before, the only thing that could bring me back to belief in a divine layer to reality is a personal experience of divine contact that I knew was divine. Others have claimed it often enough that I assume it happens. It seems to give them a certainty of evidence for God. I also assume God would do that with me if He wanted me to have belief. I’ve never had this. It’s in Gods hands.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But I do struggle with a view that it is so obvious to me that God doesn’t exist that there surely must be something missing in the make-up of all those who do believe.

Correction: Different as opposed to missing (although the occasional poster does have me wondering at times - no names…).

So do you agree that atheists converting in moments of danger are rare? you probably know more atheists than I do

Using myself as the only example I have, I’d say yes. But I am very convinced about my position whereas I think most of the people I know who are atheists have simply taken a default position. Maybe some cultural conditioning would come to the fore as the plane was dropping out of the sky.

And maybe in times of great stress such as a child being seriously ill, then some might take any opportunity to get help even if it was from something they knew didn’t exist. I wouldn’t do for myself. But for my grandkids for example? I’d rather not find out.

But I remember when my father was seriously ill when Inwas 16 (he never left the hospital I mentioned earlier). I took my mother to our local church so we could pray for his recovery. Although I didn’t. I sat there watching my mother knowing that it was comforting to her to ask for help. But I knew it wasn’t going to make any difference.

Although there was still a small part of me at that time thinking of God: ‘You’re not going to help, are you…’. And then wondering who it was I thought I was having this mental discussion with. I realised then that I wasn’t rejecting God. I really didn’t believe.

 

[Neithan]

Test it out. Take it apart. Put it back together again. Look at it from another angle. Look for other examples of the same argument. Look for bias in the person using the argument. And be honest with yourself.

Yes I couldn’t agree more with this; and the last sentence is the most important and the most difficult. It’s one of the great insights in Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov. Considering that, we can be increasingly wary of cognitive bias in proportion to the degree of certainty we hold in a belief. We also can compare our beliefs, take a step back, and look at their integrity and coherence as they fit together.

That’s one of the things I appreciate about the Catholic religion and how counter-cultural it is now, because it is so well thought out in its most minute detail, and because I’m forced to constantly examine my beliefs critically I am always becoming more aware and conscious — and, so far, more appreciative — of them.

This is also one important reason why I can not accept materialism, which I’m becoming increasingly convinced can only be salvaged by eliminativism, for example, because I cannot honestly believe something that tells me I don’t really have any beliefs.

 

[Neithan]

I think a Common Thread that can be found in most western atheists is a dedication to the idea that what is real must be observable and verifiable as such.

It’s a pretty reasonable belief.

I agree that it is a very common belief among atheists educated in the great agnostic milieu of western countries, and that it feels like a reasonable belief. It’s something that is worth critically examining by reading about the inherent and self-refuting problems with verificationism and logical positivism; but most atheists will never do that, unfortunately, because of lack of time, interest, or ability. As it is academic philosophy abandoned that belief sometime in the last century.

Starting from a position of theistic uncertainty, I’ve just not been convinced that any of the hundreds of gods out there are real.

This is also a very popular belief among “western” atheists, but it’s consequent to another belief, usually unexamined, that the Christian God is something essentially different from Allah or Brahma or is similar to Zeus or Odin. We would have to untangle these beliefs first before properly approaching an argument for theism.

 

[WillPhillips]

Just out of curiosity, what is a Humanist/Secular service like? What do they do?

I’m assuming you’ve googled your question by now so won’t answer, but heres a photo. The US military has continued to ban Humanist chaplains FYI (unlike other western countries). Also, the non-religious outnumber Catholics in the US generally, so not much of a surprise this is mirrored in the military, and would result in such services.

Edit: here’s an example of a recent topic:

“On 26 Jan, we had the opportunity to discuss “Death” with 1780 trainees, graduates and their family members. We talked about what they want their funerals to be like as well as what they want to do with their corpse after they die. We also discussed what it’s like to answer the question “if you don’t believe in eternal life, your life must be hopeless.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Kaninchen]

inherent and self-refuting problems with verificationism and logical positivism; but most atheists will never do that

How quaint! How far do modern Atheists like Dawkins do logical positivism? How far does anybody do logical positivism anymore?

 

[Neithan]

Quaint indeed! If The God Delusion is any indication, it doesn’t get very far.

 

[Kaninchen]

Quaint indeed! If The God Delusion is any indication, it doesn’t get very far.

I’ve not read it so I’ve no idea whether logical positivism is a core approach. I thought the last logical positivists died out in the 70s and everybody was a falsificationist now.

 

[Neithan]

Dawkins is not (which is evident in that book) a philosopher, so I don’t think he consciously applied positivism, but insofar as he advocates that the existence of God must be an accessible fact within the realm of the scientific method, that’s attempting to go very far with positivism, but of course not getting anywhere at all. Stephen Hawking did the same thing, and Carl Sagan.

Logical positivism lives on in scientism.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, the existence of God would need to be ‘accessible’ if you were going to address it within the scientific method - whether or not one was given to ‘scientism’.

I remember one poster here who was going to ‘prove’ Jesus to me using the scientific method (I’m a Jew), he then disappeared.