Doubts about Hell, suffering. Please Help!

[4_marks]

SamCA:

Imagine that you’re at an ice cream shop. They have a dozen different flavors of ice cream. However, the guy who owns the place has a standing policy of shooting anyone who orders any flavor except vanilla in the head.

Would anyone seriously argue that he is offering his customers a free choice?

Today, I say to myself, I am going to jump off the top of a high rise building and fly. I don’t believe in the so-called “law of gravity.” Why I believe in freedom of choice, so what I think to be true is what is actually the truth.

I make the jump, and fall headlong to my peril.

Lessons learned?

1. Our ability to make choices have limits.
2. If I make the choice to jump off a building because I don’t believe in the “law of gravity,” I had better have strapped on a rocket pack loaded with plenty of jet fuel first.
3. There is such thing as absolute, universal, objective moral and theological truth.

 

[Scullinius]

Hermione,

It sounds to me like you’re just not ready to “metabolize,” so to speak, these stories of evil and suffering. Have you considered putting them aside for a while, and immersing yourself in the Gospel? You have so many questions… maybe you should just devote yourself to quiet meditation, prayer, and reading, and let it all sink in for a while.

Do you have a spiritual director?

 

[SamCA]

STJOMO:

Suppose you lived in a house where you were free to come and go as you please, but you were told that if you go outside you’d be ripped apart by hungry lion waiting just outside the door. Meanwhile, you grow up learning through a variety of means (parents, teachers, written materials, videos, ad infinitem) just how dangerous going outside can be and those materials show you in graphic detail just what hungry lions can do to you, once your all alone, outside.

Yet, you ignore all of those lessons and decide for yourself --either because you don’t believe the lions exist or you decide that, since you do have a free will to decide for yourself, you’re going outside anyway.

But I’m not stupid. Or, at least, not that stupid. I would never go outside in this scenario. Likewise, I would never voluntarily go to Hell, or stay there by choice.

In order for this scenario to be a really valid analogy for the kind of Hell that SPOKENWORD is talking about, you’d need to amend it a bit. Nobody goes outside by choice. However, some people disagree with the master of the house. Some of them are really terrible housemates – they wreck the place and everyone else has clean it up, or they attack the others. Others aren’t as bad – they just disagree about how the house should be run, or maybe they leave things lying around more than they should.

Regardless, the master of the house will brook no disobedience. Anyone who deviates from his carefully proscribed rules of house conduct is chucked out the door and eaten by the lion.

It was, after all, their choice to break the rules.

 

[STJOMO]

The house is earth. Housemates are your fellow man. The master is God. The lions den is hell. You remain safe as long as you stay under the protection and guidance of your master. You are cast out of the house only if you die an unrepentent sinner. You know the stakes beforehand.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

john doran:

well, there’s nothing unscriptural about the view that people remain in hell only because they hate god and do not want to leave (or at least that they hate god more than they hate their suffering).

Hi John,We can think what we want but what is Gods truth. I,m sure that those that are in hell would be more then happy to get out.But the truth is once they are there,its to late to turn back. We see that in the story of Lazurus. Hell is ugly and not a place I want to be. God Bless

 

[john_doran]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi John,We can think what we want but what is Gods truth. I,m sure that those that are in hell would be more then happy to get out.

but how are you sure of that?

i’ll tell you what i’m sure of: that god’s goodness, love, and mercy are such that he forgives anyone asking for it. the image of a seething cauldron of people burning and writhing in agony, all begging and pleading for god to be merciful to them, and god just ignoring them, simply makes no sense to me.

at the very least, my conviction in the plenary power of god’s mercy far exceeds any conviction i have in a particular theology of hell.

 

[SamCA]

STJOMO:

The house is earth. Housemates are your fellow man. The master is God. The lions den is hell. You remain safe as long as you stay under the protection and guidance of your master. You are cast out of the house only if you die an unrepentent sinner. You know the stakes beforehand.

Precisely. But the fact that someone is master doesn’t mean they’re right.

We have a word for a ruler who brooks no disobedience and throws anyone who questions him to the lions. That word is “tyrant.”

 

[Dph]

All of this was predicted by the Bible! It predicted that in the end times people would be horrible too each other. There would be epidemics(AIDS, SARS Ebola etc.) and earthquakes (There have been several such as the ones in Iran, Europe etc.) and wars(war has been so common in these last two centuries.) . This is all a sign that we are in the end times.

 

[petra]

I have read that the problem of evil is the greatest obstacle to the proof of God. I actually think it is the strongest proof of God.

Consider this:

1. Think of the most horrific evil you have heard about. (Some of the things you mention, Hermione, definitely qualify).
2. Think of the anger and sense of injustice that wells up within us when we learn about these atrocities or when we, ourselves, are hurt.
3. If there is no God, there is no basis for our sense of outrage over these things. We cannot call them “bad.” We cannot say, “That was not fair.” We have to just accept these things as people acting out their need to dominate and survive.

If there is no God, our sense of injustice is meaningless and invalid. Yet, if there is anything we know beyond a shadow of doubt, it is that there is really such thing as “evil.” The atheist, the agnostic, and the spiritual person cannot fight the reaction we experience when we witness true evil. This is a portion of the “Law” that is written upon our hearts. We are born with it. Why would we all share such a fundamental “knowledge” if it were not valid?

The only thing more horrible than the evil in this world is the concept that the evil in the world is not actually evil–that it is nuetral–that it means nothing. Wouldn’t be horrible if the treatment that Muslim women endure matters not? But God has said it is not nothing! He says that it does matter! He has communicated to us that our pain matters greatly to Him. He validates our sense of injustice and essentially says, “Yes, that was wrong, that was not fair, that was evil. You are absolutely right about your assessment, and the pain you feel is real and valid.”

God did not create evil, but it exists as a result of His absense. When people, by their free will, exclude Him, morality breaks down and evil starts to emerge. Given generations of this, evil takes root in a society.

Now, on the issue of hell . . . Hell is not a place or a punishment. It is a state of being in which God is completely absent. What is important to realize is that being separated from God, in itself, is painful and tortuous. There are no whips or devices by which souls will be tortured. It is simply the absence of God that wil be torturous.

Conversely, heaven is not really a place or a reward, either. It is a state of being completely in the presence of God. Being close to Him is is what will make heaven “heavenly” and satisfying. Our rewards and comforts will be nothing other than fellowship more intimate than we have every experienced here on earth. He is our reward!

Ironically, those that shut their heart to God here on earth, do not truly understand what it is like to be separated from God. God is at work here on earth, and even the atheist is a beneficiary of God’s involvment. They are still touched by His blessings–even if remotely due to a conscious desire to be atheist. But people that shut their hearts to God in this world will not be punished in the afterlife. They will simply get what they wanted all along in the fullest sense. And that, in itself, will be torturous.

 

[Philthy]

Hermione:

I’m having doubts and am hoping that someone can help me.

I have recently read a lot of material about the lives of women in Muslim countries. To say the least, they are horrible. A while back I watched a documentary about North Korea and what it does to its people (tests biological and chemical weapons, imprisons and tortures, deprives them of freedom).

I am having trouble understanding why God does nothing to stop this.

Why do you blame God for the sinful things that people do? Satan brought sin into the world, not God.

Hermione:

God loves us, Jesus died for us, but why doesn’t He do anything to help those innocent people who are suffering so terribly?
It’s easier if at least those people can go to Heaven afterwards…

They can. Why don’t you get off your butt and go help them? God has to do it all? It wasn’t enough that he incarnated himself, got the **** kicked out of him and was brutally murdered all to offer a perfect atonement for the sins of the world? God has done plenty in providing a means for our salvation. It’s people like you and me who are aware of all the **** going on in this world and what do we do about it? Sit around and waste time on the internet like nothing is wrong. Well at least I can say that I don’t blame God for my own failings and those of the rest of humanity.

Phil

 

[Philthy]

clarkal:

It doesn’t make sense, Hermione.

When I was a Catholic, Hell was so real to me that it drove me to insanity, and I had a nice little stay at the psychiatry ward. The experience of seeing other severly mentally ill people changed me. Why do they suffer? “Oh, well, it’s the effect of Original Sin!” I responded, like an automaton.

Yeah, right.

I have a schizophrenic cousin. “Why do I have schiziophrenia?” he asks. “Well,” I respond, “a long time ago, in a garden far, far away, a couple of nudists, oblivious to the concept of good and evil, committed evil at the temping of a talking snake. Because they had committed evil, God decided to punish them and subject their bodies and those of their descendents to suffering and death. This is all very fair for the descendents. Trust me. And that, my cousin, is why you suffer so much.”

I would totally forgive him if he decided to beat the **** out of me.

clarkal

Sounds like you’ve made a lot of progress clarkal…

 

[Hermione]

Philthy:

Why do you blame God for the sinful things that people do? Satan brought sin into the world, not God.

They can. Why don’t you get off your butt and go help them? God has to do it all? It wasn’t enough that he incarnated himself, got the **** kicked out of him and was brutally murdered all to offer a perfect atonement for the sins of the world? God has done plenty in providing a means for our salvation. It’s people like you and me who are aware of all the **** going on in this world and what do we do about it? Sit around and waste time on the internet like nothing is wrong. Well at least I can say that I don’t blame God for my own failings and those of the rest of humanity.

Phil

God created Satan. God knew Satan would do things. God knew man would fall. God doesn’t do anything to stop any of it.

I would help them if I could. What can I do? I have no money, no power, no influence. In the future when I have money I plan to donate it.

God has infinite power and could eliminate Satan and all evil in the blink of an eye.

 

[Philthy]

Hermione:

Who am I to question God’s justice, right?

Correct.

Hermione:

I certainly don’t want to do this. (And I hope it’s not a sin!) But it really bothers me that apparently so many people - most people, in fact - go to Hell. I don’t think most people are evil enough to deserve eternal torture. (Frankly, I don’t think anyone is evil enough to deserve to be tortured for ETERNITY.)

And your opinion is important why? Did you create the universe so that you can decide what is and what is not apporpriate? You don’t even know who’s going to hell and who isn’t, you don’t know what hell is like yet you’ve decided to obsess on this -

Hermione:

An earlier poster said that people who are motivated by a fear of punishment are like trained rats. It’s pretty hard not to fear eternal torture that most of us will be subjected to.

“Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” Proverbs 1:7 But it is only the beginning, not the end. Love is the end. Somehow you have taken the wonderful gift of salvation that God has in store for you and you have trashed it for some hypothetical soul in a third world country who might be going to hell. Yet I don’t think you have lifted a single finger to do anything about the plight of these people - have you? You sooooo concerned about it but what are you doing?

 

[Philthy]

Hermione:

I don’t know, if it’s between not having free will when it comes to choosing sins and BEING TORTURED FOREVER IN THE FIRES OF HELL, I would rather God just took away my free will whenever I was tempted to sin.

He has bigger plans for you dear than sin avoidance. He wants you to know PURE LOVE - you can’t if you have no free will.

Hermione:

As for the suffering of others, sometimes this argument makes sense to me. But it’s VERY hard to come to terms with when I read stories of suffering. I was reading many stories of terrible suffering that Muslim women experience throughout their lives. I saw a documentary that had former political prisoners of North Korea recount the horrors they witnessed and the tortures they were subjected to. I read things about famines and human rights abuses in the former Soviet Union, I read things about forced prostitution of women and children, and many other horrors that human beings perpetrate against one another.

Don’t blame God for human failings.

Hermione:

This is so horrible and so pointless. What’s the use in the suffering of a 10 year old child as he and his parents are put into a glass chamber and subjected to chemical weapons tests? (This is done in North Korea.) What’s the use in the suffering of a young woman who is hanged upside down while her husband beats her, pokes out her eyes, cuts off her ears etc. because he suspects her of having committed adultery (an actual story I read about a crime in Pakistan)?

Yes, sin is horrible - but don’t blame God.

Hermione:

This is horrible. And to top all that off, what if all those people who are suffering in those terrible ways end up going to Hell?

Why doesn’t God do something? Or give us the power to do something? If I could, I would rescue all those people, but I can’t.

If I knew you any better I’d call you a bold-faced liar. As it is I’ll have to simply call you a liar. After you have given up your entire life trying to help those people and failed then you can blame God. Until then blame yourself and quit trying to dodge your responsibility.

God can, why doesn’t He? This is really troubling to me.

Let me guess: when you were a little girl you believed Prince Charming was going to come along and sweep you off your feet and make everything in your life perfect - well, you still believe it. You play no role in the world. God hasn’t given you any talents or gifts to use and share with others? Or have you decided to not even try to use them? How, exactly, do you know who you can and can’t save until you try? It’s easy to whine and wish that God would just take care of everything, but that’s simply selfish.

Phil

 

[Hermione]

Philthy:

Correct.

And your opinion is important why? Did you create the universe so that you can decide what is and what is not apporpriate? You don’t even know who’s going to hell and who isn’t, you don’t know what hell is like yet you’ve decided to obsess on this -

“Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” Proverbs 1:7 But it is only the beginning, not the end. Love is the end. Somehow you have taken the wonderful gift of salvation that God has in store for you and you have trashed it for some hypothetical soul in a third world country who might be going to hell. Yet I don’t think you have lifted a single finger to do anything about the plight of these people - have you? You sooooo concerned about it but what are you doing?

What’s the point of putting me down?

 

[Alterum]

Philthy:

Let me guess: when you were a little girl you believed Prince Charming was going to come along and sweep you off your feet and make everything in your life perfect - well, you still believe it. You play no role in the world. God hasn’t given you any talents or gifts to use and share with others? Or have you decided to not even try to use them? How, exactly, do you know who you can and can’t save until you try? It’s easy to whine and wish that God would just take care of everything, but that’s simply selfish.

Phil

This is a very uncharitable response. Please have some sympathy for Hermione’s position, and what she is struggling with right now. This sort of reply doesn’t help.

 

[Hermione]

Philthy:

He has bigger plans for you dear than sin avoidance. He wants you to know PURE LOVE - you can’t if you have no free will.

Don’t blame God for human failings.

Yes, sin is horrible - but don’t blame God.

If I knew you any better I’d call you a bold-faced liar. As it is I’ll have to simply call you a liar. After you have given up your entire life trying to help those people and failed then you can blame God. Until then blame yourself and quit trying to dodge your responsibility.

God can, why doesn’t He? This is really troubling to me

Let me guess: when you were a little girl you believed Prince Charming was going to come along and sweep you off your feet and make everything in your life perfect - well, you still believe it. You play no role in the world. God hasn’t given you any talents or gifts to use and share with others? Or have you decided to not even try to use them? How, exactly, do you know who you can and can’t save until you try? It’s easy to whine and wish that God would just take care of everything, but that’s simply selfish.

Phil

Instead of insulting me, why not suggest something that I can do?

At this point, I am supported by my parents, have no education, no money, I couldn’t even feed myself much less someone else.

If I were omnipotent, I would definitely help those people.

 

[Philthy]

Hermione:

God created Satan. God knew Satan would do things. God knew man would fall. God doesn’t do anything to stop any of it.

God doesn’t do anything to stop any of it? How do you know this? Are you saying things are as bad as they can be? Is it possible that your perspective is limited?

Hermione:

I would help them if I could. What can I do? I have no money, no power, no influence. In the future when I have money I plan to donate it.

I knew it! You haven’t actually done anything yet you consider yourself in a position to criticize God. Flabbergasting. In the future when you finally get off your butt your plan is to make money to help these people? Gee Hermoine, don’t bite off more than you can chew…Aim high kiddo.

God has infinite power and could eliminate Satan and all evil in the blink of an eye.

Eliminate Satan? Where did you get the notion that a soul could be eliminated? I’ve never heard of such a thing. God has promised to put all his enemies under his footstool - and he will - be careful not to be one of them.

Phil

 

[Hermione]

Philthy:

I knew it! You haven’t actually done anything yet you consider yourself in a position to criticize God. Flabbergasting. In the future when you finally get off your butt your plan is to make money to help these people? Gee Hermoine, don’t bite off more than you can chew…Aim high kiddo.

Eliminate Satan? Where did you get the notion that a soul could be eliminated? I’ve never heard of such a thing. God has promised to put all his enemies under his footstool - and he will - be careful not to be one of them.

Phil

And if I am “put under his footstool” are you going to stand beside and rejoice?

 

[Grandsmoor]

Hermione:

I’m having doubts and am hoping that someone can help me.

I have recently read a lot of material about the lives of women in Muslim countries. To say the least, they are horrible. A while back I watched a documentary about North Korea and what it does to its people (tests biological and chemical weapons, imprisons and tortures, deprives them of freedom).

I am having trouble understanding why God does nothing to stop this. God loves us, Jesus died for us, but why doesn’t He do anything to help those innocent people who are suffering so terribly?

It’s easier if at least those people can go to Heaven afterwards…

But even this is not certain. That’s another thing I am having trouble with right now. God loves us so much, yet there exists Hell, which is essentially the worst torture one can imagine lasting for eternity. What if the people who are being experimented on in North Korea right now are sinners? What if they are sometimes full of hate, what if they have premarital sex? Are they all going to burn in Hell after their horrible lives come to an end?

I suppose one explanation is that people are in Hell because they want to be there. But this doesn’t make sense, because I can’t think of anyone who would want to be in Hell!

Maybe they want to fornicate, or lie, or be atheists or something… but I can’t imagine that anyone actually wants to go to Hell.

I don’t understand how an infinitely good and loving God would 1) tolerate all the horrible things that are done to innocent human beings, many of them children and 2) why these same human beings could very well be on their way to ETERNAL TORTURE because they did something like have premarital sex or used birth control or seriously disobeyed their parents.

(I’m not defending premarital sex or birth control or any other sin, but it just doesn’t seem fair to have ETERNAL punishment for something like that. Why can’t God just make it so that no one goes to Hell?)

There is one way I can think about the problem of evil in the world. When we sin we inflict suffering upon others. This is what Jesus suffered in his Passion. When we ourselves sin we are torturing Jesus. So, at times we are like Pilate. Then the other person is like Jesus. When we suffer at the hands of others we are like Jesus fleshing out his sufferings as St. Paul says. What God calls all of us to is to be faithful to his goodness no matter what. When we sin just go to confession and be forgiven. God will be good to us. For those who continue in their sins and do not repent they are choosing to go against God. Those who go against God go with Satan. They end up in hell. No one is in hell because of the sins of someone else. We can count on God’s justice in this matter.