Doubts about Hell, suffering. Please Help!

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It is truly very difficult for us mere humans to understand these very complex matters.

Hermione, I once asked a wise person I very much trusted questions very much like yours. His response helped me. He said: “People do not go to Hell because they don’t repent of their sins; they go to Hell because they won’t repent of their sins”.

We all have a free will in order to love God freely. Sadly, there are people who instead hate or deny God. Without repentance, these people will indeed go to Hell.** God does not send them there; they** go there of their own free will.
I do not understand this, either. I cannot imagine what would make a person hate God! Nevertheless, these people exist.
The best thing that we can do for people who do not know & love God is to pray for them.This seems too easy, but it is the most powerful thing that we can do! God bless!
 
Hello,

A good book is The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel. I don’t think the author is Catholic but it is an excellent book, Strobel used to be an atheist. He holds a Master of Studies in Law from Yale Law School. THe book takes eight objections that people have against Christianity and attempts to answer them by talking to Theologians and philiosophers. It is an interesting book.

I realize that it is difficult to be asking these kind of soul searching questions, but I think that in the end you will end up being a stronger Christian for it.
 
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Hermione:
Instead of insulting me, why not suggest something that I can do?
I don’t call myself Philthy for nothing! I have insulted you because you need a wake up call. ** Don’t get me wrong, I’m no better than you**, only different in that I don’t pretend to blame God for our failings as humans.
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Hermione:
At this point, I am supported by my parents, have no education, no money, I couldn’t even feed myself much less someone else.
It’s unclear to me what exactly is limiting you. Do you have no future potential? If you are simply young and not yet independent but feel so strongly about the situation in Pakistan, etc, have you started making plans NOW as to how to help? Are you controlling your life in a PROACTIVE manner by taking charge or in a REACTIVE manner by dealing with things on a day to day basis as they come at you? Exactly what will you be doing tomorrow to move closer to being THE BEST PERSON YOU CAN BE to achieve your goal of helping the needy?
If you are disabled or something else exists that you feel would limit your physical participation in any way then perhaps prayer would be an option as would community awareness. Nothing is stopping you from starting a fundraiser, for example.
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Hermione:
If I were omnipotent, I would definitely help those people.
Firstly, the question is not, “If I were omnipotent would I help them?” the question is, “If you were omniscient would you decide to help them?” Remeber, your perspective is limited! If God wills something, it is for a reason.
Secondly, you don’t need to be omnipotent to help them. Stop making excuses for yourself and you will see just how powerful God is - in you.
“Do you not realize that you are God’s temple and that his Spirit dwells within you?” 1Corinthians 3:16 Start small and never stop.

I’m sorry if I insulted you - forgive me.

Phil
 
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Hermione:
And if I am “put under his footstool” are you going to stand beside and rejoice?
This means I have stepped way over the bounds. I’m sorry. I don’t consider myself assured of heaven yet so please don’t think I’m judging you - Im not. I was simply reacting to some of your statements and exchanging ideas, but I was apparantly too forward.
You seem like a genuinely good soul who so dislikes some of the injustice you see around the world that it confuses you as to how and why God would allow it. As someone else said, these are good questions to wrestle with - you will become stronger as a result of them. Don’t forget to ask God to enlighten you or at least give you the peace of mind to accept the things you cannot understand.

Phil
 
I forgive you. I’m sorry I got upset and said bad things to you in return. Forgive me as well.

You know what’s really disabling and debilitating? A constant and overwhelming fear of Hell. I think I’ll end up in the mental hospital before long. (Just like another person who replied to my other post about Hell.) I already feel like vomiting and ending my life whenever I start examining my conscience.

And has God come to take away my pain? No, and why should I expect Him to? People in North Korea are suffering far worse things and they receive no help either.
 
4 marks:
Today, I say to myself, I am going to jump off the top of a high rise building and fly. I don’t believe in the so-called “law of gravity.” Why I believe in freedom of choice, so what I think to be true is what is actually the truth.

I make the jump, and fall headlong to my peril.

Lessons learned?
No.
I can drop something off the building first to test my theory of “no gravity”. How do I test my theory of “no hell”? Drop someone off a building, and wait what he will tell about an afterlife. Why do I have the distinct feeling, that won’t work?
 
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STJOMO:
You know the stakes beforehand.
No, we don’t.
We know a thousands stakes, told by thousands of religions. So we have to judge, what religion might be telling the truth about those stakes. So far I have not encountered any religion, that proposes a truth that is a) logical AND b) consistent with observable reality.
 
john doran:
but how are you sure of that?

i’ll tell you what i’m sure of: that god’s goodness, love, and mercy are such that he forgives anyone asking for it. the image of a seething cauldron of people burning and writhing in agony, all begging and pleading for god to be merciful to them, and god just ignoring them, simply makes no sense to me.

at the very least, my conviction in the plenary power of god’s mercy far exceeds any conviction i have in a particular theology of hell.
You are absolutely right. That makes no sense at all.
But you must keep in mind, that SPOKENWORD argues from scripture, and that from a scripture that contains significantly less information than your scripture. As a Catholic you have the luxury of an authority that interprets scripture, SPOKENWORD has scripture only, and since scripture is full of mistakes, contradictions, metaphors and outright nonsense he has to rely on a literal interpretation not to get totally confused. That of course implies that he has to accept and/or ignore all those contradictions.
 
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Dph:
All of this was predicted by the Bible! It predicted that in the end times people would be horrible too each other. There would be epidemics(AIDS, SARS Ebola etc.) and earthquakes (There have been several such as the ones in Iran, Europe etc.) and wars(war has been so common in these last two centuries.) . This is all a sign that we are in the end times.
Oh well, that is a sign that the end times were here for the last 4 Mio. years.
People were always horrible to each others. There have been worse epidemics in the past (Black Death 1349 e.g.). And earthquakes have been around for the last 4 Bln. years.
Really, great prophecies.

Now I make some predictions:
Next year a politician will lie.
Next year a stone will fall from the sky.
Next year there will be a flood in a highly populated area.
You will not send me a $1000000 for each prediction that comes true.
 
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Hermione:
olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml I read this story which claims to be an account of the life of a hell-bound soul. And this person wasn’t supremely evil. All I got from the story was that she was selfish, materialistic, and didn’t pray. Should such a person spend an infinite length of time being tortured by the fires of Hell? It just doesn’t seem fair to me. At this rate most of us are going to be burned for eternity.

An earlier poster said that people who are motivated by a fear of punishment are like trained rats. It’s pretty hard not to fear eternal torture that most of us will be subjected to.
Well maybe if we take on-board what Jesus says in Divine Mercy about the lukewarm, it might be easier to understand.

So maybe that is all it took for that poor soul to be lost, lukewarmness, or indifference in other words.
I know it’s better to love God without the threat of hell, but hell was intended for the Devil and his followers, after the great “No” I will not serve.
I personally don’t understand hell, but then again I don’t understand lots of things., but one sure thing is, I believe in it, Jesus referred to it many times.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the Devil and his angels in hell, long before God created man ?
So God created hell for the demons, not for man, it was only with the fall, and the great lie “you will not die” (disobedience) that the Devil has power to drag us there.
Jesus said so, “don’t fear those that can harm the body, but rather him that can harm your soul, for all eternity” (hell)

Ninth Day
“Today bring to Me The Souls Who Have Become Lukewarm and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. These souls wound My Heart most painfully. My soul suffered the most dreadful loathing in the Garden of Olives because of lukewarm souls. They were the reason I cried out: ‘Father, take this cup away from Me, if it be Your will.’ For them the last hope of salvation is to run to My mercy.”

divinemercysunday.com/novena.htm
 
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AnAtheist:
Ah, the good old theodicy problem. I asked myself the same questions, and there are several possible answers you probably do not want to hear.

The simplest answer of course is: God does not exist.
And of course the least intelligent :cool:
 
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AnAtheist:
No.
I can drop something off the building first to test my theory of “no gravity”. How do I test my theory of “no hell”? Drop someone off a building, and wait what he will tell about an afterlife. Why do I have the distinct feeling, that won’t work?
You can test it by habitually disobeying all moral absolutes. I assure you that, then, you will know for sure there is a hell.
 
4 marks:
You can test it by habitually disobeying all moral absolutes. I assure you that, then, you will know for sure there is a hell.
No, then I will be reborn as a lower creature.
😛

Or, I will go to Nirvana, because I have reached the ultimate intellectual level for a human, where your morals do not apply.
Or, I will be rewarded by the Demiurg.
Or, I will go to Walhalla, because Odin’s absolute morals are different from your absolute morals.
 
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Hermione:
I am having trouble understanding why God does nothing to stop this. God loves us, Jesus died for us, but why doesn’t He do anything to help those innocent people who are suffering so terribly?
I can think of a number of possible reasons but in the end since God’s mind and perspective is so much – indeed infinitely – greater than mine I can’t know for certain and certainly not fully why He does what He does.

It’s like little children who don’t understand why their parents do some things, including things that may cause them some suffering. A little child who is sick with a fever may not understand why his parents would bring him to a hospital where he is treated in part with ice cold water or medicine that tastes bitter. But the little child should trust his parents and so also we should trust our heavenly and eternal Father.

The gap in perspective and intelligence between God and ourselves is much greater, infinitely greater than the gap between ourselves and little children. So it is only to be expected that there will be some things even many things that we don’t understand about God’s providence. In fact if there were no such things then that would be evidence against God. So while it may seem counterintuitive, the problem of evil actually serves as evidence for God.

St Anselm said I do not seek to understand so that I may believe but rather I believe so that I may seek to understand.
I don’t understand how an infinitely good and loving God would 1) tolerate all the horrible things that are done to innocent human beings, many of them children and 2) why these same human beings could very well be on their way to ETERNAL TORTURE because they did something like have premarital sex or used birth control or seriously disobeyed their parents.
Where we are, that is, from our position as pilgrims and wayfarers on earth the best response is just to trust in God. We can entrust all these people to God whose mercy knows no bounds and has no limits.

But let’s examine it intellectually also. It may interest you to know that according to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm
“In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. … But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted.”

It may also interest to you read the following words of Avery Cardinal Dulles, SJ:

firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0305/articles/dulles.html
“In a “reverie” circulated among friends but not published until after his death, the philosopher Jacques Maritain included what he called a “conjectural essay” on eschatology, in which he contemplates the possibility that the damned, although eternally in hell, may be able at some point to escape from pain. In response to the prayers of the saints, he imagines, God may miraculously convert their wills, so that from hating Him they come to love Him. After being pardoned, they will then be delivered from the pain of sense and placed in a kind of limbo. They will still be technically in hell, since they will lack the beatific vision, but they will enjoy a kind of natural felicity, like that of infants who die without baptism. At the end, he speculates, even Satan will be converted, and the fiery inferno, while it continues to exist, will have no spirits to afflict. This, as Maritain acknowledged, is a bold conjecture, since it has no support in Scripture or tradition, and contradicts the usual understanding of texts such as the parable of the Last Judgment scene of Matthew. But the theory has the advantage of showing how the Blood of Christ might obtain mercy for all spiritual creatures, even those eternally in hell.”

We won’t know all the details and intricacies and wonders of God’s providence until Christ’s second coming. Until then we can only trust in God’s love as a little child for to such belong the kingdom of God 🙂
 
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SamCA:
What I have a harder time with, as regards the Problem of Evil, is the natural variety. People didn’t create sudden infant death syndrome.
That can’t be proven, Science may just not have found the cause yet.
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SamCA:
Cancer is hard-wired into the human genome, which implies that if we were designed, cancer was created intentionally. Viruses and bacteria are part of God’s Creation, if we are to believe the tenets of Christianity.
What, should there be no disease? no suffering? no death?
So you would have everyone starve to death and eventually go into murderous rages when the earth became so crowded, there was no room?

The bigger picture is not how we die, but how we lived. Life IS fair. It holds no favors. Good and Bad people die horrible or peaceful deaths everyday. Death is a fact of life.

How we live determines how we remain for eternity. God is a choice. Could you Imagine going through life and nobody loved you…God = Love…Life without Love = Hell…
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SamCA:
Why would a loving parent create things like that? It’d be like buying a rabid dog and locking it in a room with your children.
This is a silly comparison.
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SamCA:
Let us suppose, for a moment, that there is a compelling reason for allowing human will to be truly free. That God would truly love to jump in and save everyone in the nick of time like a divine superhero, but that for the greater good of all, he must restrain himself from doing so. I’m not convinced I buy it, but it seems at least possible.
That is right, he MUST allow people to come to him, FREELY, that is LOVE. If he wanted robots, he would have made robots.

Its funny how some peoples view distorts their happiness.
Even in the worst places of death in the world, mother theresa still found occasion to be happy…I wonder why that is?

I’ll bet because she knew God’s Love, and it gave her strength to help and minster to the needy.
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SamCA:
What that still leaves me unable to explain is Hell. Let’s say that the people here arguing that people choose to separate themselves from God are totally right – are we to believe than an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being couldn’t figure out a better place to put all those who reject him than an eternal pit of torment?
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SamCA:
And just where would you put people that you created, that don’t love you and reject you?
What would you do with a dog that attacks you or your other children???

If that dog killed my child, I would kill it quick!!

Now God on the other hand is much more Merciful. He’s gonna give that dog every chance in the world to say he is truley sorry.

God loves all his children so much that he would still give the dog a chance to repent[it has to be genuine, God will know your heart]…unto its last breath.

As a matter of fact, God did give his only Son to the dogs[us], to be sacrificed for thier sake…all we have to do know is repent, pray, love God and other dogs, and bring Christ to as many other dogs as we can…
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SamCA:
If I love my kids, but they decide they hate me, I’ll probably be heartbroken. But I also probably won’t chain them up in the basement and hire a guy to torture them.
NO, parents love thier children, and if those children reject thier parents teachings about how to live and be happy, they will find themselves chained up and being tortured all on their own, and not by your hand…

But by a number of evils that exist today…name your addiction, or evil situation that someone can end up in that consumes them.

Peace be to you brother, and I pray you accept the Love that God gave to us into your heart…

Christianity and Athiesm both are matters of Faith, scientifically speaking 😉
 
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AnAtheist:
No.
I can drop something off the building first to test my theory of “no gravity”. How do I test my theory of “no hell”? Drop someone off a building, and wait what he will tell about an afterlife. Why do I have the distinct feeling, that won’t work?
well, i can suggest an experiment you yourself could conduct, but it wouldn’t be repeatable… 🙂 .

seriously, though, why would you require that sort of experimental evidence? there’s a whole host of things you believe for which you have none and for which none is forthcoming.
 
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AnAtheist:
No, we don’t.
We know a thousands stakes, told by thousands of religions. So we have to judge, what religion might be telling the truth about those stakes. So far I have not encountered any religion, that proposes a truth that is a) logical AND b) consistent with observable reality.
interesting.

i’m curious - what catholic truths do you find illogical? by truth, do you mean individual doctrinal truths, or something more like “Truth” considered as that religion’s weltanschaaung?

i also find it strange that your objection to religious doctrines would be their inconsistency with observable reality; given your penchant for positivism, i would have assumed that you would have been put-off by the fact that most religious beliefs are compatible with almost any observable reality, since - as you are often wont to point out - they are in principle incapable of empirical verification.

what kind of things do you have in mind as being inconsistent with the world as we perceive it?
 
john doran:
well, i can suggest an experiment you yourself could conduct, but it wouldn’t be repeatable… 🙂 .
😛
seriously, though, why would you require that sort of experimental evidence? there’s a whole host of things you believe for which you have none and for which none is forthcoming.
Is it? Such as?

I have empirical reasons to believe in the axioms I believe in. Like “every natural number has a successor”: If I take an apple, I have an apple, I take another one I have two apples, I take another one, I have three - easy to extrapolate into a reasonable axiom.

But when some guys, who have problems with counting and think the Earth has four corners, write about an undetectable place, then I need more convincing reasons.
 
john doran:
interesting.

i’m curious - what catholic truths do you find illogical? by truth, do you mean individual doctrinal truths, or something more like “Truth” considered as that religion’s weltanschaaung?
The latter (Weltanschauung, nice untranslatable word btw). In fact, I regard the term “truth” as misleading. Statements are true, there is no such entity like truth itself.
As for the Catholic doctrines I find illogical:
The OP has listed one. There are several more, which all deserved their own thread, so excuse me when I skip that here.
i also find it strange that your objection to religious doctrines would be their inconsistency with observable reality; given your penchant for positivism, i would have assumed that you would have been put-off by the fact that most religious beliefs are compatible with almost any observable reality, since - as you are often wont to point out - they are in principle incapable of empirical verification.what kind of things do you have in mind as being inconsistent with the world as we perceive it?
Well, this debate here is a perfect example. If Hell is part of reality, it must be detectable/observable. Great, show me, where is it? Same goes for the creation story, the Flood, the tower of Babel, the exodus. Nice myths but unsupported by reality.
Yes, I know, those stories are to be regarded as metaphors, creationists aside. But they come from the very same source, from which other stories should not be taken metaphorically, like certain relationships to God, virginity, resurrections, miracles. That is one inconsistency to start with.
Another example: A rainbow is an ordinary optical phenomena, recreatable with any lightsource, some air and water. It is not the bridge to Walhalla, does not point to a pot of gold, and it is not a “I promise: No more Floods”-sign.
 
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Hermione:
I don’t understand how an infinitely good and loving God would 1) tolerate all the horrible things that are done to innocent human beings, many of them children and 2) why these same human beings could very well be on their way to ETERNAL TORTURE because they did something like have premarital sex or used birth control or seriously disobeyed their parents.
Considering the problem of evil in the world followed by Hell, is always difficult, mainly because the grace won by Christ on the cross goes both forwards AND BACKWARDS in time, so that at no moment has mankind been without the benefit of the availability of the grace of the cross, so that the solution, grace, interferes with our ability to see what unsaved man, and evil, are REALLY like.

Forget debating whether the Adam and Eve story is historical. Whether or not it is historical, the Adam and Eve story is a “thin-sliced hypothetical” describing what we would be like in the case of *every single moral decision *were we not showered with the grace of the cross.

In the absence of the grace of the cross, we are selfishness-loving, sin-loving beasts who prefer sin and suffering and chaos – Hell – to the presence of God.

People who engage in serious sin, especially repetitive serious sin, and then recover from it and re-achieve a state of grace, have a better sense of what I am referring to here. They have come closer to becoming what unsaved man his like. They have felt the lure and lust of human evil unbuffered by the flow of grace, and understand better how disgusting we are outside of God’s grace, and how much we hate God outside of that grace.

When we are judged, and God finds that we died in a state of fundamental rejection of His grace, so that God gives us what we opted for and totally cuts off all grace, we immediately despise God and march to Hell, flags flying, raging against God.

This is what we are, without grace.
 
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